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UnderGround Forums >> Rogan: Mayweather gets killed by average wrestler


7/21/13 12:23 AM
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Gomrad
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SKARHEAD -
tenchu - 
Leigh - 
tenchu - Multidimensional-fighter who can fight in all ranges beats one-dimesnional fighter.

It's amazing how in denial boxing fans are.

All these arguments about how fast a boxer is, or a boxer will just knock out a guy before he gets taken down, were the same arguments made when the UFC started and yet grapplers consistently beat boxers and strikers.

People realize this and find it appealing. It probably partly explains why MMA is more popular than boxing now among the younger demographic (at least confirmed in the US).
I don't think anyone is arguing that a boxer can beat a professional MMA fighter at MMA most of the time. They are arguing that high school kids and bjj blue belts with no cross training cannot beat Floyd Mayweather.

Most people agree that a collegiate wrestler is a helluva athlete and would probably take pbf down. Phone Post

Fair point. I agree and wrestlers are awesome athletes!

Technu, Elite grapple4rs should beat elite 1 dimensional strikers sure.


However PBF is ALOT better at boxing than your average wrestler or BJJ blue belt is at his sport.



MMA is more popular now in the U.S. because boxing is in a slump while UFC has a huge marketing machine behind it and 1/2 the MMA fighters are tatted up douchebags with pink mohawks which is what appeals to the average generation Douche kid.....Most of these younger kids have never boxed in their life and would get absolutely MAULED in a boxing ring even though they might do pretty good against other nerds in BJJ class.


BTW I've boxed and grappled , jiu jitsu and judo...Love all combat sports, but LOL @ underestimating boxers, especially on the street. Shows how stupid people are.
Glad to see more people with common sense have joined this discussion.

For those of you who feel strongly about your position maybe you can post about background, age, relevant experiences, etc... That might help us understand Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 12:32 AM
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Gomrad
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This is HL video a wrestler of mine made a few years back while he was on HS. The match video is from when he was 16-17 in 11th grade....

http://youtu.be/ho3RUw6-4t8

He is one of the best pure athletes I've coached over my 16 year career. He has started the past two seasons for a D-1 college (was ACC runner-up and an NCAA qualifier).

This is the type of wrestler Joe Rogan is referring to.... These types of kids are not very common, for everyone one of like there are a 1,000 average joes in HS wrestling... Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 11:36 AM
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SKARHEAD
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I've trained in different aspects of MMA and have trained with some seriously tough/dangerous dudes from MMA, BJJ, and Judo....and I must say that the bad mofos from my boxing days count among THE scariest, fastest, most powerful individuals I have ever came across....LOL @ the average BJJ nerd stepping to one of these guys with their low end athleticsm , poor striking defense, shit stamina, and weak chins....No not all BJJ guys are like this, but I bet this thread has plenty of them.


Respect everyone.
7/21/13 12:24 PM
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Periodik
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I still hold true to my position. Floyd has a defensive/clinch heavy style. He doesn't dance around the ring and his footwork isn't shockingly quick.

What he does have is a fast dash and lightning hand speed. Unfortunately one of his main techniques into negating people's attack is clinching after he throws a lead right.

Clinching in a street fight would not be a smart move for any boxer no matter how great at boxing they are.

My background includes boxing from 13-18 in my home state of CT and home country of Puerto Rico. BJJ from 23-25. Muay Thai from 24-25. I'm 27.
7/21/13 12:46 PM
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jllamas
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lots of retards on this thread ,,, mayweather is a freak athlete i agree he would lose to a wrestler but the wrestler would have to be much more than average..lol at anyone on this thread thinking they have a chance
7/21/13 1:03 PM
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SWAT 79
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A few people have mentioned how fast and powerful mayweather is, and those tend to have the right head on their shoulders. He is literally, one of the best athletes in the world, and I do not think any straight bjj player, up to a purple belt, could have anything for him or any pro boxer for that matter.

If you're not getting hit, it is very difficult mentally to accept the fact that someone is trying to do everything they can to beat you, instead of make you tap out. I much rather have someone constantly going for a rear-naked or arm bar, then someone following me around a ring trying to punch me in the face.

I've trained boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, and wrestling with high level college athletes. My overall MMA game didn't get better until I was boxing with high level amateur boxers, and collegiate wrestlers. Both of those things made my BJJ better because I began throwing my entire body into everything I do, and used much better foot work. I would not be able to beat Mayweather anywhere, whether it's the street or ring.

A high level D1 wrestler would not only dominate 90 percent of BJJ blue belts, they also have the toughness and athletism that BJJ guys are not able to comprehend. I would agree with Rogan's statement that a high level wrestler could give Mayweather a hard time, because they can just lower their level, keep their hands up, shoot, and then dump him on his head. They can also do that to most MMA fighters and BJJ players, because they're shots are just so much faster and more powerful then what most people are used to.
7/21/13 2:13 PM
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Osbot
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I find it funny that guys on this site think that with their weekend warrior JJ skills they could beat a guy like Floyd in a street fight. Maybe if Floyd was 60, fat and out of shape.

The reality is, and Joe makes this point in his argument, you need to have a requisite level of athleticism/skill set to do that.

An AVERAGE collegiate wrestler is NOT an average dude. That is a trained fucking killer. That guy has suffered more physically than probably 98% of the worlds population. That guy will explosively close the distance and dump people on their heads.

Average Joe with a blue belt isn't going to get anywhere NEAR Floyd. He's going to be like the wind, and he will light you the fuck up so fast you will wake up in a god damned hospital. If you're lucky, you will be able to remember that you thought you could beat him up in a 1v1 straight up street fight. Then you will realize you are a fucking dumb ass.
7/21/13 4:46 PM
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thegoldenboy
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Osbot - I find it funny that guys on this site think that with their weekend warrior JJ skills they could beat a guy like Floyd in a street fight. Maybe if Floyd was 60, fat and out of shape.

The reality is, and Joe makes this point in his argument, you need to have a requisite level of athleticism/skill set to do that.

An AVERAGE collegiate wrestler is NOT an average dude. That is a trained fucking killer. That guy has suffered more physically than probably 98% of the worlds population. That guy will explosively close the distance and dump people on their heads.

Average Joe with a blue belt isn't going to get anywhere NEAR Floyd. He's going to be like the wind, and he will light you the fuck up so fast you will wake up in a god damned hospital. If you're lucky, you will be able to remember that you thought you could beat him up in a 1v1 straight up street fight. Then you will realize you are a fucking dumb ass.
Damn right. As much as I respect wrestlers and understand what a difficult sport wrestling is I am 100% sure that Floyd would ABSOLUTELY destroy any wrestler in a street fight. He would throw dozens of punches at lightning speeds straight at the wrestlers chin before he even knew he was in a fight. There would simply be no time to comply with a takedown unless this was an organised fight. Even in an organised fight a pure wrestler has no defensive striking skills whatsoever and there's a damn good chance he'd get clipped on the way in. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 4:54 PM
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Gomrad
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thegoldenboy -
Osbot - I find it funny that guys on this site think that with their weekend warrior JJ skills they could beat a guy like Floyd in a street fight. Maybe if Floyd was 60, fat and out of shape.

The reality is, and Joe makes this point in his argument, you need to have a requisite level of athleticism/skill set to do that.

An AVERAGE collegiate wrestler is NOT an average dude. That is a trained fucking killer. That guy has suffered more physically than probably 98% of the worlds population. That guy will explosively close the distance and dump people on their heads.

Average Joe with a blue belt isn't going to get anywhere NEAR Floyd. He's going to be like the wind, and he will light you the fuck up so fast you will wake up in a god damned hospital. If you're lucky, you will be able to remember that you thought you could beat him up in a 1v1 straight up street fight. Then you will realize you are a fucking dumb ass.
Damn right. As much as I respect wrestlers and understand what a difficult sport wrestling is I am 100% sure that Floyd would ABSOLUTELY destroy any wrestler in a street fight. He would throw dozens of punches at lightning speeds straight at the wrestlers chin before he even knew he was in a fight. There would simply be no time to comply with a takedown unless this was an organised fight. Even in an organised fight a pure wrestler has no defensive striking skills whatsoever and there's a damn good chance he'd get clipped on the way in. Phone Post 3.0
I don't think you can say "any wrestler"...

Google this fella Alexander Karelin

Would be a worse physical mismatch then Thunderlips "the ultimate male" vs "The ultimate meatball" Rocky Balboa.

Prime Karelin could literally rip limbs off a 150lb world class athletes body Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 5:00 PM
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Swayze Express
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Edited: 07/21/13 5:00 PM
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I agree with joe rogan
7/21/13 5:30 PM
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thegoldenboy
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Gomrad - 
thegoldenboy -
Osbot - I find it funny that guys on this site think that with their weekend warrior JJ skills they could beat a guy like Floyd in a street fight. Maybe if Floyd was 60, fat and out of shape.

The reality is, and Joe makes this point in his argument, you need to have a requisite level of athleticism/skill set to do that.

An AVERAGE collegiate wrestler is NOT an average dude. That is a trained fucking killer. That guy has suffered more physically than probably 98% of the worlds population. That guy will explosively close the distance and dump people on their heads.

Average Joe with a blue belt isn't going to get anywhere NEAR Floyd. He's going to be like the wind, and he will light you the fuck up so fast you will wake up in a god damned hospital. If you're lucky, you will be able to remember that you thought you could beat him up in a 1v1 straight up street fight. Then you will realize you are a fucking dumb ass.
Damn right. As much as I respect wrestlers and understand what a difficult sport wrestling is I am 100% sure that Floyd would ABSOLUTELY destroy any wrestler in a street fight. He would throw dozens of punches at lightning speeds straight at the wrestlers chin before he even knew he was in a fight. There would simply be no time to comply with a takedown unless this was an organised fight. Even in an organised fight a pure wrestler has no defensive striking skills whatsoever and there's a damn good chance he'd get clipped on the way in. Phone Post 3.0
I don't think you can say "any wrestler"...

Google this fella Alexander Karelin

Would be a worse physical mismatch then Thunderlips "the ultimate male" vs "The ultimate meatball" Rocky Balboa.

Prime Karelin could literally rip limbs off a 150lb world class athletes body Phone Post 3.0

I know him, the guys a freak athlete no doubt about it. But he's still a fucking wrestler, how do we know he can take successive hard shots to the chin. Floyd would obviously have to knock him out before he gets a hold of him, but yeah Karelin would likely do just that...simply too big of a size difference.

It would be fairer to match him with someone like a prime Mike Tyson in which case Alexander would have his head sent to pluto. First class ticket. I don't give a shit what anyone says, a left hook from Iron Mike is a hell of a lot faster than a double leg from Karelin. Again I'm not talking about the cage here, simply a sudden fight in the street like 99% of street fights are.
7/21/13 6:11 PM
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Piyo
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As a person with about a dozen MMA fights and lots of sparring experience in boxing gyms...Rogan is correct. Any D1 wrestler beats Floyd nine times out of ten in the street or cage.

Nothing against boxing...I think boxers are crazy tough athletes and very impressive. It's just that, when comparing their pure forms, wrestling is simply superior for fighting. That's it.
7/21/13 6:20 PM
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thegoldenboy
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Piyo - As a person with about a dozen MMA fights and lots of sparring experience in boxing gyms...Rogan is correct. Any D1 wrestler beats Floyd nine times out of ten in the street or cage.

Nothing against boxing...I think boxers are crazy tough athletes and very impressive. It's just that, when comparing their pure forms, wrestling is simply superior for fighting. That's it.

Your wrong about the street. Plain and simple.
7/21/13 6:22 PM
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GSPsShadyHandWraps
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"I know him, the guys a freak athlete no doubt about it. But he's still a fucking wrestler, how do we know he can take successive hard shots to the chin."

He has boxing experience. His dad was an amature boxer

7/21/13 6:26 PM
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HexRei
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thegoldenboy - 
Piyo - As a person with about a dozen MMA fights and lots of sparring experience in boxing gyms...Rogan is correct. Any D1 wrestler beats Floyd nine times out of ten in the street or cage.

Nothing against boxing...I think boxers are crazy tough athletes and very impressive. It's just that, when comparing their pure forms, wrestling is simply superior for fighting. That's it.

Your wrong about the street. Plain and simple.

No he's not. Unless you're taking into account angry homies coming up and stomping you in the back of the head while you're busy wrestlefucking the boxer, or the boxer getting lucky terrain-wise and getting in extra shots while he's bracing against the wall or a counter and you can't complete the TD before you are rocked or something.

But there's no reason, standing the middle of a street, that a D1 wrestler shouldn't be able to put a high level boxer on their back before they get KO'ed 9/10 times. In fact I'd say the wrestler has an advantage in the street vs a ring/cage, getting smashed onto pavement's going to be a lot more dangerous than getting smashed onto a cage or ring canvas.
7/21/13 6:27 PM
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Doc T
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Ll Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 6:28 PM
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Gomrad
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In Soviet Russia hard shots have to be able to take his chin... Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 7:37 PM
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thegoldenboy
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HexRei -
thegoldenboy - 
Piyo - As a person with about a dozen MMA fights and lots of sparring experience in boxing gyms...Rogan is correct. Any D1 wrestler beats Floyd nine times out of ten in the street or cage.

Nothing against boxing...I think boxers are crazy tough athletes and very impressive. It's just that, when comparing their pure forms, wrestling is simply superior for fighting. That's it.

Your wrong about the street. Plain and simple.

No he's not. Unless you're taking into account angry homies coming up and stomping you in the back of the head while you're busy wrestlefucking the boxer, or the boxer getting lucky terrain-wise and getting in extra shots while he's bracing against the wall or a counter and you can't complete the TD before you are rocked or something.

But there's no reason, standing the middle of a street, that a D1 wrestler shouldn't be able to put a high level boxer on their back before they get KO'ed 9/10 times. In fact I'd say the wrestler has an advantage in the street vs a ring/cage, getting smashed onto pavement's going to be a lot more dangerous than getting smashed onto a cage or ring canvas.
The wrestler would get knocked out before they shot. I've already explained a dozen fucking times why that would happen. Before the fight even starts the wrestler would get hit hard with some seriously powerful and accurate shots straight to the chin.

The boxers punches are simply much faster than the wrestlers takedowns. A realistic and likely scenario would be that two guys who don't know each other are in a pub. One is a professional boxer and the other is an elite wrestler, the wrestler starts talking shit to the boxer and they both square up shoving each other. In a split second the boxer unleashes a combination from hell straight to the chin RIGHT before the wrestler shoots (unlikely anyway as he knows he's in a crowded area and wouldn't even know the other guys a boxer and subsequently expect he'd be able to knock him out with his power). My point is that people tend to throw punches in the street before anything else, not fucking double legs where someones friends can easily stomp the shit out of you. And who can throw punches better than a boxer Your wrong. Simple as that. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 7:56 PM
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SKARHEAD
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GSPsShadyHandWraps - "I know him, the guys a freak athlete no doubt about it. But he's still a fucking wrestler, how do we know he can take successive hard shots to the chin."

He has boxing experience. His dad was an amature boxer


His dad was an ammy boxer...his dad has boxing experience.


What boxing experience does Karelin have ? Hitting the mits that his dad was holding ?

What good or even decent HW pro or even ammy boxers did Karelin spar with and look even OK against ?

How is Karelin's striking defense ? How does he react when someone with TRUE KO power is throwing bombs at his head and body ?
7/21/13 7:58 PM
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SKARHEAD
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HexRei - 
thegoldenboy - 
Piyo - As a person with about a dozen MMA fights and lots of sparring experience in boxing gyms...Rogan is correct. Any D1 wrestler beats Floyd nine times out of ten in the street or cage.

Nothing against boxing...I think boxers are crazy tough athletes and very impressive. It's just that, when comparing their pure forms, wrestling is simply superior for fighting. That's it.

Your wrong about the street. Plain and simple.

No he's not. Unless you're taking into account angry homies coming up and stomping you in the back of the head while you're busy wrestlefucking the boxer, or the boxer getting lucky terrain-wise and getting in extra shots while he's bracing against the wall or a counter and you can't complete the TD before you are rocked or something.

But there's no reason, standing the middle of a street, that a D1 wrestler shouldn't be able to put a high level boxer on their back before they get KO'ed 9/10 times. In fact I'd say the wrestler has an advantage in the street vs a ring/cage, getting smashed onto pavement's going to be a lot more dangerous than getting smashed onto a cage or ring canvas.

The wrestling shot is not faster than Floy'd fist....not in ANY universe.
7/21/13 8:05 PM
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Gomrad
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You hear people say things like "when so and so grabs you then your getting slammed on your head", in his prime AK would snatch Floyd up, eat a combo with that fire hydrant head / neck on the way in and then he could literally kill him with his bare hands. His strength / power was as close to super human as you could imagine. If AK wanted to kill any 150lb man by power bombing him there would be no stopping him. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/13 10:59 PM
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burner22
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BriggsSeekins - I don't think it's anywhere near as clear-cut between Mayweather and an average college wrestler as Rogan thinks it is. Mayweather would have an excellent chance of timing a punch on a wrestler shooting straight in, and that punch is going to be far harder than any blow that average college wrestler is likely to ever have taken to the face. Some guys might still finish that shot. But anybody who has seen college wrestlers sparring for their first time ever knows that no matter how tough they are, getting drilled in the face takes some getting used to. And we're talking getting popped by Mayweather. Mayweather isn't a monster puncher by elite boxing standards, but he's got knockout power. But against an average college wrestler, I would give the edge to the wrestler in an MMA fight.


As for hobbyist blue belts in BJJ thinking they would beat Mayweather in a fight, that is more comical. I am a blue belt, and probably a little beyond that in No Gi, and was a pretty decent HS wrestler over 20 years ago. I also earn part of my income writing about boxing and have covered a good number of high level fights ringside. I think some people don't really realize the degree to which boxers do have practical, standup grappling experience, to a degree. There is a ton of clinching, shrugging and jostling for space to punch in close.

A boxer with no grappling training would be prefectly vulnerable to all kinds of quick, crippling joint locks or chokes on the ground, but getting an elite boxer to the ground without getting drilled is much harder than a lot of people seem to think. You're talking about world class professional athletes with years of training to torque their shoulders and torsos violently one way, out of trouble, before exploding back into range. If you have a good, very quick double leg, that's one thing. But most blue belt level, three-five night a week blue belts don't have a double leg anything like a college wrestlers. They're not tossing a guy, based on just a little bit of momentum, the way a trained judoka or greco-roman guy can.

I saw somebody write on here that they think the average construction worker would beat the typical hypster blue belt in a street fight. That's a fucking joke. I've been on construction crews and seen plenty of above average construction worker type of guys trying to learn to fight. They aren't beating an average blue belt, just based on being so much more manly or something. I don't care if the blue belt is a college professor or hair dresser or some other such unmanly profession.

But I also think a lot of average blue belts seriously over-estimate how effective their grappling would be against a world class professional athlete who has been trained for years to control distance and deliver a lot of punches, from a lot of angles, in less time than a normal person's brain can easily process.
Ah a voice of reason at last Phone Post
7/21/13 11:05 PM
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HexRei
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SKARHEAD - 
HexRei - 
thegoldenboy - 
Piyo - As a person with about a dozen MMA fights and lots of sparring experience in boxing gyms...Rogan is correct. Any D1 wrestler beats Floyd nine times out of ten in the street or cage.

Nothing against boxing...I think boxers are crazy tough athletes and very impressive. It's just that, when comparing their pure forms, wrestling is simply superior for fighting. That's it.

Your wrong about the street. Plain and simple.

No he's not. Unless you're taking into account angry homies coming up and stomping you in the back of the head while you're busy wrestlefucking the boxer, or the boxer getting lucky terrain-wise and getting in extra shots while he's bracing against the wall or a counter and you can't complete the TD before you are rocked or something.

But there's no reason, standing the middle of a street, that a D1 wrestler shouldn't be able to put a high level boxer on their back before they get KO'ed 9/10 times. In fact I'd say the wrestler has an advantage in the street vs a ring/cage, getting smashed onto pavement's going to be a lot more dangerous than getting smashed onto a cage or ring canvas.

The wrestling shot is not faster than Floy'd fist....not in ANY universe.

Because Floyd is a KO artist or something? Most of his fights go to decision. It's not a question of whether Floyd could hit him during the takedown, it's a question of whether he could finish him before the takedown is completed.
7/21/13 11:12 PM
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HexRei
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thegoldenboy - 
HexRei -
thegoldenboy - 
Piyo - As a person with about a dozen MMA fights and lots of sparring experience in boxing gyms...Rogan is correct. Any D1 wrestler beats Floyd nine times out of ten in the street or cage.

Nothing against boxing...I think boxers are crazy tough athletes and very impressive. It's just that, when comparing their pure forms, wrestling is simply superior for fighting. That's it.

Your wrong about the street. Plain and simple.

No he's not. Unless you're taking into account angry homies coming up and stomping you in the back of the head while you're busy wrestlefucking the boxer, or the boxer getting lucky terrain-wise and getting in extra shots while he's bracing against the wall or a counter and you can't complete the TD before you are rocked or something.

But there's no reason, standing the middle of a street, that a D1 wrestler shouldn't be able to put a high level boxer on their back before they get KO'ed 9/10 times. In fact I'd say the wrestler has an advantage in the street vs a ring/cage, getting smashed onto pavement's going to be a lot more dangerous than getting smashed onto a cage or ring canvas.
The wrestler would get knocked out before they shot. I've already explained a dozen fucking times why that would happen. Before the fight even starts the wrestler would get hit hard with some seriously powerful and accurate shots straight to the chin.

The boxers punches are simply much faster than the wrestlers takedowns. A realistic and likely scenario would be that two guys who don't know each other are in a pub. One is a professional boxer and the other is an elite wrestler, the wrestler starts talking shit to the boxer and they both square up shoving each other. In a split second the boxer unleashes a combination from hell straight to the chin RIGHT before the wrestler shoots (unlikely anyway as he knows he's in a crowded area and wouldn't even know the other guys a boxer and subsequently expect he'd be able to knock him out with his power). My point is that people tend to throw punches in the street before anything else, not fucking double legs where someones friends can easily stomp the shit out of you. And who can throw punches better than a boxer Your wrong. Simple as that. Phone Post 3.0

I guess I assumed this was a fair encounter where we were assuming they both attacked at the same time. If we're assuming the boxer attacks first and the wrestler responds, sure it's going to help them, but still, he's going to need to clean KO said wrestler with that first flurry, because any D1 wrestler is going to have drilled that takedown thousands of times and won't have a problem carrying it out while dazes (believe it or not, people get concussions wrestling too).

If we're going to talk about likelihoods given the angry homies stomping you in the head aspect, that changes everything, but I also thought we were at least trying to keep this relevant to Rogan's comments, rather than assuming the boxer had a gang of friends with him.
7/21/13 11:59 PM
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armbarseverywhere
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Wrestlers don't need to shoot within your hand's distance. Why would a wrestler need to shoot so close? Brock Lesnar can begin a shot from at least 10 feet away. And let's not forget how FAST a college level wrestler is.

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