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UnderGround Forums >> Hughes: How can guys complain about their pay?


7/19/13 1:45 PM
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jagen
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Either the UFC doesn't make as much money as we all think, or they're a bunch of scumbags who pay their fighters like garbage, and would rather spend 500 grand on a new TUF house in every continent/country.

Only way to find out is with open books via a UNION, ain't gonna happen anytime soon folks, if ever.
7/19/13 1:48 PM
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guardbr8kr
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This is why Hughes still collects a pay check from the UFC. I'm not saying he's wrong
7/19/13 1:57 PM
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Michael Chase
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GMan99 -
Michael Chase - 
GMan99 - I don't like or agree with this notion, "If people aren't buying a PPV or a ticket to the event because of you, then what are you worth?" but it is being cited frequently of late.

I think this kind of thinking is what has diminished my inclination to buy PPVs. It used to be that you had a balanced card where you were interested in buying the card as a whole. Now, they have become so main event driven, and the rest of the card frequently seems like filler.

I think that if someone is a good fighter, in an interesting matchup, they contribute to my overall desire to buy the card. If there is a good main event, but a lackluster rest of the card, then I am reluctant to buy because what if the main event is disappointing?
You may not like or agree with it, but it's the nature of things. Sports will always be business and a fighter will only ever be as good as the number of people who will pay to watch him fight.

If the UFC adopted an attitude of what many posters here think is "right", MMA as a whole would probably start dying off pretty quickly. Phone Post

My point is that I think that it is inaccurate to think that everyone buys a card because of one or a couple guys. I base this on my experience that I have chosen not to buy any more thin cards regardless of who is in the main event.
True, but you are basing that on YOUR experience.

Try and fathom how many UFC "fans" don't even know who Fedor is, or wouldn't have a clue about anything unless you were talking about someone like Jones, GSP, or Brock Lesnar. Those people far outweigh guys like us. Phone Post
7/19/13 2:16 PM
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JeffersonDArcyChoke
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Michael Chase -
GMan99 - I don't like or agree with this notion, "If people aren't buying a PPV or a ticket to the event because of you, then what are you worth?" but it is being cited frequently of late.

I think this kind of thinking is what has diminished my inclination to buy PPVs. It used to be that you had a balanced card where you were interested in buying the card as a whole. Now, they have become so main event driven, and the rest of the card frequently seems like filler.

I think that if someone is a good fighter, in an interesting matchup, they contribute to my overall desire to buy the card. If there is a good main event, but a lackluster rest of the card, then I am reluctant to buy because what if the main event is disappointing?
You may not like or agree with it, but it's the nature of things. Sports will always be business and a fighter will only ever be as good as the number of people who will pay to watch him fight.

If the UFC adopted an attitude of what many posters here think is "right", MMA as a whole would probably start dying off pretty quickly. Phone Post
I don't think the Cleveland Browns are drawing viewers or are a hot ticket.

Their salary structure is the same as even the New England Patriots.

I don't think the Washington Wizards draw money but their 12th man on the bench earns more than every UFC fighter save for GSP, Jones and Silva for sitting on the bench in his warm ups for 40 minutes a night.

The UFC sells itself as a BRAND.

Dana White always positions the UFC as the brand you are paying for.

Whereas in boxing, you pay for Floyd Mayweather and not the WBC when you buy a PPV.

The UFC can't have it both ways. They want to position as a brand you are buying like leagues such as the NBA, NFL, etc yet they argue for a pay structure like in boxing where there is no league and each individual is their own brand. Phone Post
7/19/13 2:21 PM
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guardbr8kr
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fishyfish - 

our system is called CAPITALISM, which means Money is #1.  the way to do that is use whatever power we have, to draw money away from others and put them in a tight spot, so that they work harder and cheaper so we make more money.  and those that don't succeed = Darwinism in action.  Law of the Jungle, baby. 


our system is FLAWED !!!
7/19/13 2:23 PM
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jagen
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fishyfish - 

our system is called CAPITALISM, which means Money is #1.  the way to do that is use whatever power we have, to draw money away from others and put them in a tight spot, so that they work harder and cheaper so we make more money.  and those that don't succeed = Darwinism in action.  Law of the Jungle, baby. 


Looks like that is really working out for USA, take Detroit for example, even Florida.
7/19/13 2:28 PM
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FightToLive
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So because he didn't make much when the UFC was struggling means UFC salaries should stay stagnant forever?

Matt Hughes was one of Dana's buddies, and he got the buddy treatment. Not everyone is so lucky. I doubt Tito ever got a $1 million bonus after one of his fights.




That's what Jenna is for!
7/19/13 2:46 PM
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MrHughes1991
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joe_mama - While Hughes is technically correct, he does miss one large point. That back then, most guys held days jobs in addition to fighting on the side. There really wasn't the 'professional athlete' aspect of it back then that there is now. With guys training full-time, camps and teammates et al that they have to now support.

I remember hearing an anecdote in fact that Matt Hughes worked on the farm still and as a roofer during his early tenure.
Matt worked as a farmer cause his family owned a farm and he liked it lol Phone Post 3.0
7/19/13 2:53 PM
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jagen
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fishyfish - 
jagen - 
fishyfish - 

our system is called CAPITALISM, which means Money is #1.  the way to do that is use whatever power we have, to draw money away from others and put them in a tight spot, so that they work harder and cheaper so we make more money.  and those that don't succeed = Darwinism in action.  Law of the Jungle, baby. 


Looks like that is really working out for USA, take Detroit for example, even Florida.

well the trick is to not be in the bottom 97%.  if you can focus on hard work and determination, remember money is #1 and sacrifice everything for it, and tell yourself other people don't deserve anything except work and to eat dirt, and that you deserve to make 1000X as much money as them, then your halfway there!

USA has PLENTY of rich people, and many of them ARE in Florida.  you just gotta live in the right neighbourhood.  as for Detroit and places like that, poor people gotta live somewhere!

if you can learn to dehumanize people, and take the life out of their lives by keeping them busy selling their lives away just to get by, then you too can make a killing, and finally get around to the business of actually living (the GOOD life).  you just gotta be smart and not care about anybody else but yourself.  that's the TRUE SECRET to success.

now get a haircut and go wash my cars.


A nice little chunk of the rich living in Florida are actually Canadians, east coast retiree's who go to Florida because they can't deal with the winters anymore as they get old. They buy all your houses from the banks for dirt cheap.

I agree people DESERVE nothing except for work, most countries can't even promise something as simple as that. Thank fuck I don't have to look for a job in this economy, shit was way easier back in the 70's and 80's.
7/19/13 2:53 PM
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jagen
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MrHughes1991 - 
joe_mama - While Hughes is technically correct, he does miss one large point. That back then, most guys held days jobs in addition to fighting on the side. There really wasn't the 'professional athlete' aspect of it back then that there is now. With guys training full-time, camps and teammates et al that they have to now support.

I remember hearing an anecdote in fact that Matt Hughes worked on the farm still and as a roofer during his early tenure.
Matt worked as a farmer cause his family owned a farm and he liked it lol Phone Post 3.0

not to mention it's a multi-million dollar farm, if done right you can make boat loads of cash farming.
7/19/13 2:54 PM
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MrHughes1991
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OnlyTheStrongSurvive -
Whambo - So because he didn't make much when the UFC was struggling means UFC salaries should stay stagnant forever?

Matt Hughes was one of Dana's buddies, and he got the buddy treatment. Not everyone is so lucky. I doubt Tito ever got a $1 million bonus after one of his fights.
Tito was cashing huge checks while losing fight after fight after fight in the UFC. Phone Post
Cause Tito had the image of helping to build the UFC and had a HUGE fan following. Fitch had neither Phone Post 3.0
7/19/13 2:57 PM
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me101
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Fightermindset.com, Owner
JeffersonDArcyChoke - 
Michael Chase -
GMan99 - I don't like or agree with this notion, "If people aren't buying a PPV or a ticket to the event because of you, then what are you worth?" but it is being cited frequently of late.

I think this kind of thinking is what has diminished my inclination to buy PPVs. It used to be that you had a balanced card where you were interested in buying the card as a whole. Now, they have become so main event driven, and the rest of the card frequently seems like filler.

I think that if someone is a good fighter, in an interesting matchup, they contribute to my overall desire to buy the card. If there is a good main event, but a lackluster rest of the card, then I am reluctant to buy because what if the main event is disappointing?
You may not like or agree with it, but it's the nature of things. Sports will always be business and a fighter will only ever be as good as the number of people who will pay to watch him fight.

If the UFC adopted an attitude of what many posters here think is "right", MMA as a whole would probably start dying off pretty quickly. Phone Post
I don't think the Cleveland Browns are drawing viewers or are a hot ticket.

Their salary structure is the same as even the New England Patriots.

I don't think the Washington Wizards draw money but their 12th man on the bench earns more than every UFC fighter save for GSP, Jones and Silva for sitting on the bench in his warm ups for 40 minutes a night.

The UFC sells itself as a BRAND.

Dana White always positions the UFC as the brand you are paying for.

Whereas in boxing, you pay for Floyd Mayweather and not the WBC when you buy a PPV.

The UFC can't have it both ways. They want to position as a brand you are buying like leagues such as the NBA, NFL, etc yet they argue for a pay structure like in boxing where there is no league and each individual is their own brand. Phone Post

+1

Many times it's been mentioned that for a boxing match fans only turn up for the main event but for UFC's fans are there for the whole show. 

The fact people come to watch these early fights show the fighters have a higher value than the pre-lim boxers they are frequently compared with.

7/19/13 3:12 PM
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ufc98newb
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Edited: 07/19/13 3:19 PM
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people show up early for the ufc brand, not because of who the fighters are in the facebook prelims. Facebook prelims is basically the UFC version of minor leagues. Those guys are pretty much there on a tryout, and could easily be replaced by any fighter from Bellator, WSOF, m1, etc. Those low paying spots are their chance to prove themselves. 

Now the way I see it, there can be some middle ground. Guys in there first 2 or 3 fights are not entitled to anything, imo. But, once you past that test and prove yourself for a few fights, there should be some sort of a liveable minumum pay scale. 20/20 or something like that. 

7/19/13 3:13 PM
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MNFAN
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JeffersonDArcyChoke - 
Michael Chase -
GMan99 - I don't like or agree with this notion, "If people aren't buying a PPV or a ticket to the event because of you, then what are you worth?" but it is being cited frequently of late.

I think this kind of thinking is what has diminished my inclination to buy PPVs. It used to be that you had a balanced card where you were interested in buying the card as a whole. Now, they have become so main event driven, and the rest of the card frequently seems like filler.

I think that if someone is a good fighter, in an interesting matchup, they contribute to my overall desire to buy the card. If there is a good main event, but a lackluster rest of the card, then I am reluctant to buy because what if the main event is disappointing?
You may not like or agree with it, but it's the nature of things. Sports will always be business and a fighter will only ever be as good as the number of people who will pay to watch him fight.

If the UFC adopted an attitude of what many posters here think is "right", MMA as a whole would probably start dying off pretty quickly. Phone Post
I don't think the Cleveland Browns are drawing viewers or are a hot ticket.

Their salary structure is the same as even the New England Patriots.

I don't think the Washington Wizards draw money but their 12th man on the bench earns more than every UFC fighter save for GSP, Jones and Silva for sitting on the bench in his warm ups for 40 minutes a night.

The UFC sells itself as a BRAND.

Dana White always positions the UFC as the brand you are paying for.

Whereas in boxing, you pay for Floyd Mayweather and not the WBC when you buy a PPV.

The UFC can't have it both ways. They want to position as a brand you are buying like leagues such as the NBA, NFL, etc yet they argue for a pay structure like in boxing where there is no league and each individual is their own brand. Phone Post

This is an extremely flawed argument. The Cleveland Browns have the same pay structure as the New England Patriots because the NFL dictates they have to. Baseball is a better example. The New York Yankees don't have the same structure as the Minnesota Twins. UFC fighters are independent contractors who sign contracts to work for the amount they agreed to. If that amount is lower than what they want, or feel they deserve, they don't have to sign the contract. They can go lay bricks, or be an accountant, or start their own promotion. I understand the UFC is damn near a monopoly but as long as fighters just keep complaining about pay, and not actually refusing to fight, and or taking some other action, it won't change.

The biggest flaws I see in the contracts are that the pay structure per contract stays the same for the duration of the contract. For instance, if Roy Nelson signs a five fight contract for 28k/28k, he's getting that for five fights. Guys need to be negotiating improvements into their performances. You win your first fight, your next fight you get 35/35, you win your second you go to 50/50, etc. There is more than one way to do things. Maybe the UFC completely shuts that down, but I have to think these guys and their managers can be more creative with how they get paid.
7/19/13 4:44 PM
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joe_mama
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MrHughes1991 - 
joe_mama - While Hughes is technically correct, he does miss one large point. That back then, most guys held days jobs in addition to fighting on the side. There really wasn't the 'professional athlete' aspect of it back then that there is now. With guys training full-time, camps and teammates et al that they have to now support.

I remember hearing an anecdote in fact that Matt Hughes worked on the farm still and as a roofer during his early tenure.
Matt worked as a farmer cause his family owned a farm and he liked it lol Phone Post 3.0

Hughes wasn't the only example, just the obvious one. The full-time professional MMA athlete is a relatively new occurrence.
7/19/13 4:53 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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What does every group of athletes want from the sport's earnings? A FAIR SHARE.

 

Is Hughes economically impaired? Can he and Chuck really not understand the concept of growth?

7/19/13 5:15 PM
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BLACKBUDDAH
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Michael Chase -
GMan99 - I don't like or agree with this notion, "If people aren't buying a PPV or a ticket to the event because of you, then what are you worth?" but it is being cited frequently of late.

I think this kind of thinking is what has diminished my inclination to buy PPVs. It used to be that you had a balanced card where you were interested in buying the card as a whole. Now, they have become so main event driven, and the rest of the card frequently seems like filler.

I think that if someone is a good fighter, in an interesting matchup, they contribute to my overall desire to buy the card. If there is a good main event, but a lackluster rest of the card, then I am reluctant to buy because what if the main event is disappointing?
You may not like or agree with it, but it's the nature of things. Sports will always be business and a fighter will only ever be as good as the number of people who will pay to watch him fight.

If the UFC adopted an attitude of what many posters here think is "right", MMA as a whole would probably start dying off pretty quickly. Phone Post
MMA already has you gut punch. Phone Post
7/19/13 5:20 PM
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Thacommish
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ChaosOverkill - 

What does every group of athletes want from the sport's earnings? A FAIR SHARE.

 

Is Hughes economically impaired? Can he and Chuck really not understand the concept of growth?


growth!? we should just be thankful we are not dying of black lung and our children are not stricken with polio
7/19/13 5:23 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Thacommish - 
ChaosOverkill - 

What does every group of athletes want from the sport's earnings? A FAIR SHARE.

 

Is Hughes economically impaired? Can he and Chuck really not understand the concept of growth?


growth!? we should just be thankful we are not dying of black lung and our children are not stricken with polio

LOL, yep.

 

"Nickels had a picture of a bumblebee on it... I wore an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time..."

7/19/13 5:26 PM
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Malvert the Janitor
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Ip Man 81 -
Whambo - So because he didn't make much when the UFC was struggling means UFC salaries should stay stagnant forever?

Matt Hughes was one of Dana's buddies, and he got the buddy treatment. Not everyone is so lucky. I doubt Tito ever got a $1 million bonus after one of his fights.
I don't think Matt got the "buddy" treatment. Matt was one of the first stars in the UFC that brought fans, so he made money. He also happen to be a bad ass fighter. Simple Phone Post 3.0
Yuuup! Phone Post 3.0
7/19/13 5:51 PM
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mongo54
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mrwhipple - 
mongo54 - 
OnlyTheStrongSurvive - 
mongo54 -
OnlyTheStrongSurvive -  Fitch didn't really complain, he was just honest about his pay when he got cut for being "super expensive."

It's also not about how much money, it's what percentage of the UFC revenue are they getting. Phone Post

Fitch failed to mention the sponsorship money he received as a result of the UFC brand ezposure.

That doesn't cost the UFC anything. And I highly doubt Fitch made a ton on sponsorships and his style has a lot to do with that.

Either way I don't really see how it's relevant, as all Fitch did was defend himself as being "super expensive" by bringing up how much he actually made vs what he believes the owners the UFC make. Phone Post

Brand exposure is a direct result of the money spent by the UFC to market and promote.  Fighters get paid more by sponsors for a bigger viewer platform.

Fitch also threw out numbers that he believed the UFC made, but failed to account for their expenses, which must be massive.  As an example, they have storage rentals all over the world, it's cheaper to do that then ship an octagon to each show. 


Sure there expenses are huge, but as people have pointed out time and time again their EBITDA is huge as well. Unlike most fighters, they are not barely skimping by, they are making huge profits.

The UFC has worked it's way up to the top mma promotion in the world, and suffered huge losses until after ultimate fighter 1.  the top fighters in the world are not barely skimoing buy.

A fighter is only worth the profit he generates for his company, same as a factory worker or any other profession.  The promotions who threw money at fighters all went by the wayside.

7/19/13 5:57 PM
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Thacommish
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mongo54 - 
mrwhipple - 
mongo54 - 
OnlyTheStrongSurvive - 
mongo54 -
OnlyTheStrongSurvive -  Fitch didn't really complain, he was just honest about his pay when he got cut for being "super expensive."

It's also not about how much money, it's what percentage of the UFC revenue are they getting. Phone Post

Fitch failed to mention the sponsorship money he received as a result of the UFC brand ezposure.

That doesn't cost the UFC anything. And I highly doubt Fitch made a ton on sponsorships and his style has a lot to do with that.

Either way I don't really see how it's relevant, as all Fitch did was defend himself as being "super expensive" by bringing up how much he actually made vs what he believes the owners the UFC make. Phone Post

Brand exposure is a direct result of the money spent by the UFC to market and promote.  Fighters get paid more by sponsors for a bigger viewer platform.

Fitch also threw out numbers that he believed the UFC made, but failed to account for their expenses, which must be massive.  As an example, they have storage rentals all over the world, it's cheaper to do that then ship an octagon to each show. 


Sure there expenses are huge, but as people have pointed out time and time again their EBITDA is huge as well. Unlike most fighters, they are not barely skimping by, they are making huge profits.

The UFC has worked it's way up to the top mma promotion in the world, and suffered huge losses until after ultimate fighter 1.  the top fighters in the world are not barely skimoing buy.

A fighter is only worth the profit he generates for his company, same as a factory worker or any other profession.  The promotions who threw money at fighters all went by the wayside.


If this is true, how come fighters were worth so much when profit was non existent? and has profit and pay gone up at the same rate considering how zuffa was not profitable for a time and now it is? or did 1 stagnate somewhere along the way? why?
7/19/13 6:04 PM
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Zaph
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fishyfish -

Matt Hughes was THE most dominant Champion EVER, before all the GOATs we talk about.  apparently he is a real prick though.

How was he the most dominant ever if others have defended their titles more often and/or with no unavenged losses? He was the most dominant champion back then, but I can't think of anything he did that hasn't been surpassed by GSP since. Hughes will go down as the most dominant champion of the early days of Zuffa's UFC, but not the most dominant ever. Phone Post
7/19/13 6:07 PM
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ophusker
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It's like Dana says fighters just have to be cheap until they become the next Anderson Silva. That is actually the exact thing I wont' my prospective employer to tell me when I sit down for a job interview. We're going to pay you squat and you're going to have to be a cheap SOB unless you're in the top 1% of peformers in the company. Then if you achieve that level we'll pay you a lot of money. I"m honestly surprised more companies don't operate with this pay structure. I'm sure this would be acceptable to workers in all fields and walks of life.
7/19/13 6:10 PM
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Outlaw'd by Lytle
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Fight for the love of fighting not for the money.

If you can't afford to fight, don't fight. Phone Post 3.0

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