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UnderGround Forums >> Ben Askren vs these UFC Welterweights


8/3/13 12:15 AM
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D241
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SickEyeDiaz - 
tdunning - 
SickEyeDiaz - 
D241 - 

What wrestlers of Askren's calibur has Rory fought?


None that are even close...but he fights in the UFC so he is automatcally 100x better.

/sarcasm


What fighters as well rounded as Rory has Askren fought?

It goes both ways

Exactly. That's why I want Askren to be in the UFC.

All this talk about competition is fine, but I want to see the best vs. the best, and that can only happen if they are all in the same place. Get Dana and his Goodfellas out of the mix and maybe we can see the matchups we want to see :)


I was about to point out how Vitor has still not got his earned rematch at Mw, Dan Henderson still has yet to fight Jones, and Jones is nowhere near close to fighting Cain, nor is Cain going to fight DC.  All those guys are in the same place and not fighting each other, but you created a legit exit with your last sentence. You recieve a pass.....this time.

8/3/13 12:18 AM
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Augustus Caesar
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5-5

8/3/13 12:23 AM
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MaliceX
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OGT - 
MaliceX -
Aaron Becker - Demian Maia 1-0
Johnny Hendricks 1-1
Josh Koscheck 1 -2
Nick Diaz 2-2
Carlos Condit 2-3
Jake Ellenberger 2-4
George St Pierre 2-5
Gunnar Nelson 3-5
Jake Shields 4-5
Tyron Woodley 5-5

This is exactly how I see it...5-5.
You guys think he beats maia huh? Interesting. Phone Post

Why is that so hard to believe? Maia has already lost to 2 wrestlers.
8/3/13 12:55 AM
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D241
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8/3/13 12:56 AM
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D241
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Danny BonnaDouchey - Ben Askren = Sideshow Bob lookin mutha ducka. GSP vs Askren = no need for Tylenol PM Phone Post 3.0

8/3/13 1:24 AM
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D241
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Answer Results
0-10
 3.29%
1-9
 3.29%
2-8
 9.86%
3-7
 12.21%
4-6
 13.62%
5-5
 18.78%
6-4
 9.86%
7-3
 13.62%
8-2
 6.10%
9-1
 3.76%
10-0
 5.63%
Total Votes: 213
 
This is very interesting. Slightly more people think he'd go 10-0 than 0-10, and it's pretty split all the way around with 5/5 being in the lead.  
8/3/13 7:51 AM
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Dublin Dave
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5-5 IMO

Demian Maia L
Johnny Hendricks L
Josh Koscheck L
Nick Diaz W
Carlos Condit L
Jake Ellenberger W
George St Pierre L
Gunnar Nelson W
Jake Shields W
Tyron Woodley W Phone Post 3.0
8/3/13 9:18 AM
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Malvert the Janitor
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D241 -

Hmmm...

It's here that I should point out that I was perma-banned from Sherdog for posting a Rocky Dennis pic that was captioned "CB Dolloway". That was after the debacle at UFC 94 when most of us Penn fans were very angry and randomly lashing out at the world. I also flicked a lit joint in the face of a kindergartener after that fight...he screamed for the burn so I dumped my Old English 800 over his head for good measure. Pussy. Phone Post 3.0
8/3/13 10:03 AM
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SmackyBear
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12SixElbow - 
CapnKindBud - 1-9. I think that he is fighting in a minor league . The Bellator WW division is full of second tier mma fighters, the UFC is stacked with WWs....I was thinking as I watched his last fight that he isn't top 10 in the UFC. A one trick pony can't win in the UFC anymore . Phone Post 3.0

 

Your logic just doesn't make sense.

 

(Think WEC!)

 

His opponents are no joke...

Andrey is an Olympic gold medalist who was 13 - 0 (Askren's 12th pro fight)

Karl was 16 - 4 on a 5 fight win streak, (Askren's 11th pro fight)

Lima was 21 - 4 on a 9 fight win streak, (Askren's 10th pro fight)

Hieron was 22 - 4 on a 10 fight win streak,  (Askren's 9th pro fight)

Lyman Good was 10 - 0 on a 10 fight win streak,  (Askrens 7th pro fight)

Hornbuckle was 21 - 2 on a 6 fight win streak, (Askren's 6th fucking fight)

 

I know you drink the UFC kool aid, and I do too....

But Askren has done nothing (Ok, Nick Thompson was squeezed in there) but fight guys with more experience, on win streaks, and beat them all. Even if you dislike his style, thats pretty fucking impressive.

 


Andrey isn't an Olympic gold medalist... He isn't even a wrestler/judoka. He's a champion in pankration.

I understand that he hasn't fought a lot of good wrestlers, but he's an Olympic Gold medalist who set NCAA records. If they want to wrestle with him, I'm not sure it would work well in their favor, unless of course they use it to defend and open up opportunities for offense.


Askren also isn't an Olympic gold medalist.

Askren's 9th MMA fight was against D1 wrestler Jay Hieron... Hierson also had 3x as many MMA fights, and 4x as many years training as Askren did. Hieron was suspended / kicked out of school but was a junior college champion before transferring to a bigger school.


I don't think Hieron ever actually wrestled for Hofstra. He said in an interview that he transferred from some JUCO but got suspended for failing a drug test.
8/3/13 10:05 AM
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buddie
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^Correct, Askren is not a Gold Medalist, in fact he didn't even medal. It was my error and I own it. I usually try to fact check before I put stuff out, my memory failed me on that one. My apologies.
8/3/13 10:07 AM
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FightToLive
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Askren vs George = Great fight!
8/3/13 10:19 AM
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disconnect
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I have him 5-5, with him losing to maia, hendricks, koscheck, gsp, and shields.

Demian Maia (loss via sub)
Johnny Hendricks (loss via KO)
Josh Koscheck (loss via KO)
Nick Diaz (win by decision)
Carlos Condit (win by decision)
Jake Ellenberger (win by decision)
George St Pierre (loss by decision)
Gunnar Nelson (win by decision)
Jake Shields (loss via sub)
Tyron Woodley (win by decision)
8/3/13 10:21 AM
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Yun
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he'd do well. his style is like a wrestling version of nick diaz. looks weird, but works for him at a top level.

i would say he could probably handle most of the guys on the list except for the quick strikers that can jab him all day at a distance.

thing about him is he maintained his style and made it better for MMa. Lots of good wrestlers change their style and lose their power in wrestling.

he can probably blanket his way through like How fitch used to, or how Maia is... Phone Post
8/3/13 10:24 AM
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RJJH
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Edited: 08/03/13 10:24 AM
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tommypatron - 7-3
GSP Hendricks and Maia would beat him.

this exactly!!!

 

8/3/13 10:57 AM
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AwHood
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Askren fights a top 15 UFC fighter, realizes he was is too small and the talent pool of his previous competition was nowhere near his former competitors......drops to lightweight. Phone Post
8/3/13 10:58 AM
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ChippewaBJJ
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D241 - 

Granted that's Marcello Garcia, this still shows how succeptable(?) Ben is when going against someone with better than average grappling(ie Gunnar/Maia/Diaz)


That video is also dated December 2010.  You think Askren hasn't improved since then? 

Also, that wrestling match between Askren and Hendricks was in 2002... when they were both seniors in HIGH SCHOOL.

Since then, Askren went on to win the NCAA's twice and was a two time runner up (losing in the finals to the hris Pendleton in those years, who was himsef a two time NCAA champion).  His career record was 153-8.  He then went on to win gold at the Pan American Championships in 2005, the US Championships in 2008, and the World Championships in 2009 (all freestyle). 

By contrast, Johnny Hendricks was a two time NCAA champion and a one-time All American placing 5th his sophomore year.  He wasn't even a regular starter on the team as a sophomore until midway through the season, and did not start as a freshman at all (while Askren was placing 2nd).  Career record was 103-12.  Not bad, but not nearly the resume that Askren had in college and he has basically zero international wrestling experience after college. 

His junior year of college, Askren pinned 25 of his 45 opponents.  Hendricks had 25 total pins his ENTIRE COLLEGIATE CAREER, 6 of those coming as a redshirt freshman wrestling unattached.  Askren pinned his opponent in 91 of his 158 wins, better than 57%.  That's basically unheard of and will likely never be duplicated again.  He was a two-time Hodge Trophy (MVP) winner, which has only happened twice.

Just saying... it's not fair to doubt Askren's ability, or compare him to Hendricks, based on that video. 

 

8/3/13 11:04 AM
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Sam9104
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8-2 :), I think he's getting better and better and NO, GSP would not outwrestle him. He would decision GSP, IMO.
8/3/13 11:47 AM
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D241
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ChippewaBJJ - 
D241 - 

Granted that's Marcello Garcia, this still shows how succeptable(?) Ben is when going against someone with better than average grappling(ie Gunnar/Maia/Diaz)


That video is also dated December 2010.  You think Askren hasn't improved since then? 

Also, that wrestling match between Askren and Hendricks was in 2002... when they were both seniors in HIGH SCHOOL.

Since then, Askren went on to win the NCAA's twice and was a two time runner up (losing in the finals to the hris Pendleton in those years, who was himsef a two time NCAA champion).  His career record was 153-8.  He then went on to win gold at the Pan American Championships in 2005, the US Championships in 2008, and the World Championships in 2009 (all freestyle). 

By contrast, Johnny Hendricks was a two time NCAA champion and a one-time All American placing 5th his sophomore year.  He wasn't even a regular starter on the team as a sophomore until midway through the season, and did not start as a freshman at all (while Askren was placing 2nd).  Career record was 103-12.  Not bad, but not nearly the resume that Askren had in college and he has basically zero international wrestling experience after college. 

His junior year of college, Askren pinned 25 of his 45 opponents.  Hendricks had 25 total pins his ENTIRE COLLEGIATE CAREER, 6 of those coming as a redshirt freshman wrestling unattached.  Askren pinned his opponent in 91 of his 158 wins, better than 57%.  That's basically unheard of and will likely never be duplicated again.  He was a two-time Hodge Trophy (MVP) winner, which has only happened twice.

Just saying... it's not fair to doubt Askren's ability, or compare him to Hendricks, based on that video. 

 


I don't think you understand my point.

My point is that Askren has not faced anyone even remotely close in Hendrick's wrestling skill.

You mistook my post as me comparing Askren to Hendricks, when all I was intending on doing was showing how competative and non-dominant Askren can be when paired against someone with actual top level wrestling.

Do you think Askren has faced someone with wrestling the level of Hendricks in mma?

 

That video is also dated December 2010.  You think Askren hasn't improved since then? 

 

 

You would think Askren has improved, or should've improved, but what have you seen in his actual mma fights since 2010 that is a visual measurement of improvement on anything other than wrestling?

 

I think people are putting too much hype in Askren's mma ability when really, from the get-go until current, Askren has shown phenominal wrestling against obvious inferior wrestlers, but I have seen no improvement in his ground n pound or in his striking, or in his submission game.

8/3/13 11:50 AM
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D241
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To make my point, look at your post again, and what is the bulk of your post?

Wrestling this, wrestling that.

 

His wrestling was never in question bro. His opponent's wrestling skill however is. Which is why I created this poll with the opponents I chose.  To put things into perspective.

8/3/13 11:54 AM
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D241
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In the 2008 Summer Olympics. Askren won his first match via pin against Hungarian István Veréb. In his round of 8 match he lost to Cuba's Ivan Fundora 1–3 0–4. The Cuban's loss to Russia's Buvaisar Saitiev in the quarterfinal round ended Askren's hopes to medal at the 2008 games.

The 24-year-old Askren was asked if inexperience was a factor. Though he was a two-time NCAA champion at the University of Missouri he was relatively new to freestyle after wrestling folkstyle in college. "That wasn't it," he said with tears in his eyes, "I just wasn't good enough. I sucked."

 

 

But yet Askren is somehow expected to have wrestling good enough to win against actual legit wrestlers, when his only weapon in his toolbox is wrestling.  I see the kool aid being offered, but I'm not drinking it.

8/3/13 12:18 PM
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SmackyBear
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ChippewaBJJ - 
D241 - 

Granted that's Marcello Garcia, this still shows how succeptable(?) Ben is when going against someone with better than average grappling(ie Gunnar/Maia/Diaz)


That video is also dated December 2010.  You think Askren hasn't improved since then? 

Also, that wrestling match between Askren and Hendricks was in 2002... when they were both seniors in HIGH SCHOOL.

Since then, Askren went on to win the NCAA's twice and was a two time runner up (losing in the finals to the hris Pendleton in those years, who was himsef a two time NCAA champion).  His career record was 153-8.  He then went on to win gold at the Pan American Championships in 2005, the US Championships in 2008, and the World Championships in 2009 (all freestyle). 

By contrast, Johnny Hendricks was a two time NCAA champion and a one-time All American placing 5th his sophomore year.  He wasn't even a regular starter on the team as a sophomore until midway through the season, and did not start as a freshman at all (while Askren was placing 2nd).  Career record was 103-12.  Not bad, but not nearly the resume that Askren had in college and he has basically zero international wrestling experience after college. 

His junior year of college, Askren pinned 25 of his 45 opponents.  Hendricks had 25 total pins his ENTIRE COLLEGIATE CAREER, 6 of those coming as a redshirt freshman wrestling unattached.  Askren pinned his opponent in 91 of his 158 wins, better than 57%.  That's basically unheard of and will likely never be duplicated again.  He was a two-time Hodge Trophy (MVP) winner, which has only happened twice.

Just saying... it's not fair to doubt Askren's ability, or compare him to Hendricks, based on that video. 

 


Askren didn't win the 2009 freestyle World Championships. He didn't even compete.

His FILA world championship is in no-gi grappling. Jacob Volkman took silver in Askren's weight class, if I remember correctly. Nothing against Volkman, but I didn't think the field was very deep.

Askren's a phenomenal wrestler, but people constantly overstate his freestyle credentials at the international level. The only wrestler whose credentials get overstated more is Chael Sonnen.

And his wrestling has been great in MMA, but Hieron certainly didn't need NCAA or international wrestling credentials to stop many of Askren's takedowns and almost earn a decision against him. I understand it was only one night, and as 12SixElbow pointed out, it was only Askren's 9th fight. But it was quite an eye-opener for me since I thought Askren would walk right through Hieron. It does make me wonder how he'd do against many other WWs.

I do agree that the 2002 high school matches (I believe there were two) that Askren lost to Hendricks mean nothing.
8/3/13 12:47 PM
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HeHitsMeBecauseHeLovesMe
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ILoveJohnson'sJohnson -
12SixElbow -
CapnKindBud - 1-9. I think that he is fighting in a minor league . The Bellator WW division is full of second tier mma fighters, the UFC is stacked with WWs....I was thinking as I watched his last fight that he isn't top 10 in the UFC. A one trick pony can't win in the UFC anymore . Phone Post 3.0

 

Your logic just doesn't make sense.

 

(Think WEC!)

 

His opponents are no joke...

Andrey is an Olympic gold medalist who was 13 - 0 (Askren's 12th pro fight)

Karl was 16 - 4 on a 5 fight win streak, (Askren's 11th pro fight)

Lima was 21 - 4 on a 9 fight win streak, (Askren's 10th pro fight)

Hieron was 22 - 4 on a 10 fight win streak,  (Askren's 9th pro fight)

Lyman Good was 10 - 0 on a 10 fight win streak,  (Askrens 7th pro fight)

Hornbuckle was 21 - 2 on a 6 fight win streak, (Askren's 6th fucking fight)

 

I know you drink the UFC kool aid, and I do too....

But Askren has done nothing (Ok, Nick Thompson was squeezed in there) but fight guys with more experience, on win streaks, and beat them all. Even if you dislike his style, thats pretty fucking impressive.

 

This is true as much as I hate to admit it. I watched the fight last night and he totally dismantled Andrey for every second of that fight Phone Post 3.0
Not true, Andrey is not even an Olympian, let alone a gold medalist. Phone Post
8/3/13 1:15 PM
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NFABeeJay
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Number of fights is irrelevant IMO. Weidmans 10th fight was against Silva for crying outloud.

The Askren vs Hendricks post was relevant for past accomplishments but all those went away when their Pro MMA careers blossomed. The simple fact that Hendricks competition is far greater than Ben's could pose a great argument that Hendricks is superior. Does that matter? No. lol.

Askren may go 5-5 with ZERO finishes!! ZERO! Phone Post 3.0
8/3/13 1:30 PM
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Silverball
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All these long posts attempting to prove that Askren hasn't faced a decent wrestler since becoming a pro-MMA fighter (I doubt Askren would argue otherwise), and that somehow he may not be as good of a grappler as some (himself included) are giving him credit for being seem like a long a way to go in a thread where most posters predict that he'd maybe be capable of beating 3 or 4 of the UFC welterweights listed...by decision...maybe. I remember a lot of these types of threads when Strikeforce existed, and how many here argued that guys like Melendez and Jacare would get eaten alive by the far superior UFC talent pool, so until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume that Askren outwrestles a majority of his opponents regardless of the organization he fights in.
8/3/13 1:58 PM
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D241
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There have been multiple posters saying how the Hendricks/Askren wrestling match is irrelevant.

I posted that to make a point that when going against a great wrestler, Askren looked anything but dominant.

 

So to those who say it's irrelevant, what wrestlers has Askren faced in mma and dominated, and how does their wrestling background compare to Askrens?

 

Still waiting on that question to be answered.

 

Silverball-I did drink the El Nino kool aid and I think Jacare's stand up has far surpassed Askren's stand up, and both of those guys have an elite grappling background. The difference is, Jacare has shown improvements in the stand up game, where as Askren has looked as dominant in his last fight as he did his first fight, with showing no other weapons in his arsonal.  


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