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UnderGround Forums >> Ben Askren vs these UFC Welterweights


14 days ago
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D241
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What happened to DuckHuntGangsta?

 

I haven' seen him post in a while.

14 days ago
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CapnKindBud
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4-6 Phone Post 3.0
14 days ago
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D241
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CapnKindBud - 4-6 Phone Post 3.0

I'm interested in who you think he wins and loses against. No wrong answer, just curious.

14 days ago
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CapnKindBud
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12SixElbow -
CapnKindBud - 1-9. I think that he is fighting in a minor league . The Bellator WW division is full of second tier mma fighters, the UFC is stacked with WWs....I was thinking as I watched his last fight that he isn't top 10 in the UFC. A one trick pony can't win in the UFC anymore . Phone Post 3.0

 

Your logic just doesn't make sense.

 

(Think WEC!)

 

His opponents are no joke...

Andrey is an Olympic gold medalist who was 13 - 0 (Askren's 12th pro fight)

Karl was 16 - 4 on a 5 fight win streak, (Askren's 11th pro fight)

Lima was 21 - 4 on a 9 fight win streak, (Askren's 10th pro fight)

Hieron was 22 - 4 on a 10 fight win streak,  (Askren's 9th pro fight)

Lyman Good was 10 - 0 on a 10 fight win streak,  (Askrens 7th pro fight)

Hornbuckle was 21 - 2 on a 6 fight win streak, (Askren's 6th fucking fight)

 

I know you drink the UFC kool aid, and I do too....

But Askren has done nothing (Ok, Nick Thompson was squeezed in there) but fight guys with more experience, on win streaks, and beat them all. Even if you dislike his style, thats pretty fucking impressive.

 

Yeah you're right. It's not the UFC kool aid as much as a huge dislike for the wrestlefuckers of mma. I changed it to 4-6.
I think that he beats Sheilds the exact same way as Lombard did.
He also beats Kos, ellenburger and I forgot the forth one lol. Phone Post 3.0
14 days ago
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boxy
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He would've given GSZzzzz a dose of his LNP.

Askren beats everyone on that list under the LNP glory of the Unified Rules. His biggest threat is Hendricks.

In PRIDE? They would've ran out of yellow cards with Askren's GSP style. Then again, he has been finishing people lately...
14 days ago
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CapnKindBud
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D241 -
CapnKindBud - 4-6 Phone Post 3.0

I'm interested in who you think he wins and loses against. No wrong answer, just curious.

I think that he beats Koscheck ( shot fighter IMO ) Jake Shields (exactly like Lombard did) . Jake Ellenburger ( only has a punchers chance ) and Tyron Woodley ( will gas fast if he doesn't get an early KO.)
Those guys are who I think that he could smother (beat) .
Hendricks and GSP would tool him.
Diaz and Condit could out strike him easily and sub him on the ground.
I think that the others would win also but Askren has a chance.
How many can he finish? Zero. Phone Post 3.0
14 days ago
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Herman Munster
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Rory Mac would beat the shit out of him.
14 days ago
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CerronePoundsOnMeStrong
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Herman Munster - Rory Mac would beat the shit out of him.
I disagree. I think Ben would be a nightmare for guys like Condit, Rory and Brown. Phone Post 3.0
14 days ago
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GaspareBJJ
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CerronePoundsOnMeStrong -
Herman Munster - Rory Mac would beat the shit out of him.
I disagree. I think Ben would be a nightmare for guys like Condit, Rory and Brown. Phone Post 3.0
Agree'd

I think aside from Hendricks and GSP, Askren beats all other WWs Phone Post 3.0
14 days ago
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Chimp Strength
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D241 - 
CapnKindBud - 4-6 Phone Post 3.0

I'm interested in who you think he wins and loses against. No wrong answer, just curious.


I also went 4-6. But it could be 5-5 or 6-4, some are tough calls. Beats Maia, Ellenberger, Diaz and Kos (at this stage in Kos' career). Could see him beating Shields, Condit, Gunnar and Woodley on his day but would probably favour each of those. Sheilds is probably closest to being added to the top group imo.

14 days ago
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D241
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CerronePoundsOnMeStrong - 
Herman Munster - Rory Mac would beat the shit out of him.
I disagree. I think Ben would be a nightmare for guys like Condit, Rory and Brown. Phone Post 3.0

I disagree too. Rory is capaable of beating the shit out of most ww's, but there are good wrestlers, and there are elite wrestlers. Askren is in the elite class.

14 days ago
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FadeToBlack
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Edited: 09/01/14 2:10 PM
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People may think I'm nuts, but I have him going 8-2, with losses to GSP by decision and maybe getting clipped on the chin by someone like Johny Hendricks or Lawler. I would go 9-1 if Hendricks or Lawler doesn't catch him though, or possibly even 10-0 even beating GSP, but knowing MMA, everyone can lose once in a while.

I'm very high on Ben Askren as you can tell. I believe that while he isn't all that great standing up, he is able to outwrestle anyone he wants and yes, win a boring decision. I realize people don't think he's exciting, but I would absolutely love to see him against GSP. I would die laughing seeing him wrestlefuck Nick Diaz, he would tool him so badly.

Hey, I could be totally wrong on this one, that's why the baldfather needs to remove his head out of his ass and quit asking Askren to "keep winning" if he wants to get in the big boy club, he's already done that.
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D241
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I also feel that some of the UFC guys could make Askren's style more exciting.

 

Perhaps the pressure to win in UFC would make Askren's opponents risk position to go for submission, thus allowing new openings for Askren to pass, strike, submit, where as in other organizations fighters weren't getting paid enough to risk ass whoopins so they just get laid on, take minimal damage, collect a check with their L.

14 days ago
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SinCityHustler
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Damian Maia he defeats by top control and more active.

Johnny Hendricks very tough fight for Ben, Hendricks wins this

Josh Koscheck over the hill. Askren takes him down smothers him adn tkos the aging veteran.

Nick Diaz poor Nick would be suffocated in there against Ben

Carlos Condit very good match up. Carlos could hurt him standing if given the opportunity but a very determined Ben keeps Condit on his back and wins going away.

Jake Ellenberger Too inconsistent. Ben overwhelms him

George St Pierre Once GSP decided to take a stand against PEDs, his performance suddenly diminished drastically. We see him gassing out when he was just a cardio king prior to taking the big PED stance. Johnny was throwing him around as if he was a shell of himself and put a beating on him we haven't see since Matt Serra make him quit to strikes. Ben beats anti PED GSP convincingly. Now if they agree to n otesting, GSP is probably too athletic for Ben.
Gunnar Nelson Askren easily

Jake Shields chess match. Jake is getting long in the tooth and has slowed down IMO. Ben is your winner

Tyron Woodley Big brother beats on little brother. Askren is too much

9-1 or 8-2 if no testing against GSP
14 days ago
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D241
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SinCityHustler - 
George St Pierre Once GSP decided to take a stand against PEDs, his performance suddenly diminished drastically. We see him gassing out when he was just a cardio king prior to taking the big PED stance. Johnny was throwing him around as if he was a shell of himself and put a beating on him we haven't see since Matt Serra make him quit to strikes. Ben beats anti PED GSP convincingly. Now if they agree to n otesting, GSP is probably too athletic for Ben. 
Gunnar Nelson Askren easily

Jake Shields chess match. Jake is getting long in the tooth and has slowed down IMO. Ben is your winner

Tyron Woodley Big brother beats on little brother. Askren is too much

9-1 or 8-2 if no testing against GSP
 
That's kinda fucked up man.
 
You aren't acknowledging that at the same time period, GSP was sidelined due to a Significant knee injury, the 2nd significant knee injury in as many years. He was sidelined, not fighting, so he was interviewed not about upcoming fights, but about other stuff. One thing he verbalized the most while in recovery, was how he feels UFC needs to take a stance on Peds.
 
I think that was a fairly classless accusation of you to make. 
I'm too alpha to ask you to take it back, but Herman Munster just called me, and he asks you to take it back.
 
 
14 days ago
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SinCityHustler
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ChippewaBJJ - 
D241 - 

Granted that's Marcello Garcia, this still shows how succeptable(?) Ben is when going against someone with better than average grappling(ie Gunnar/Maia/Diaz)


That video is also dated December 2010.  You think Askren hasn't improved since then? 

Also, that wrestling match between Askren and Hendricks was in 2002... when they were both seniors in HIGH SCHOOL.

Since then, Askren went on to win the NCAA's twice and was a two time runner up (losing in the finals to the hris Pendleton in those years, who was himsef a two time NCAA champion).  His career record was 153-8.  He then went on to win gold at the Pan American Championships in 2005, the US Championships in 2008, and the World Championships in 2009 (all freestyle). 

By contrast, Johnny Hendricks was a two time NCAA champion and a one-time All American placing 5th his sophomore year.  He wasn't even a regular starter on the team as a sophomore until midway through the season, and did not start as a freshman at all (while Askren was placing 2nd).  Career record was 103-12.  Not bad, but not nearly the resume that Askren had in college and he has basically zero international wrestling experience after college. 

His junior year of college, Askren pinned 25 of his 45 opponents.  Hendricks had 25 total pins his ENTIRE COLLEGIATE CAREER, 6 of those coming as a redshirt freshman wrestling unattached.  Askren pinned his opponent in 91 of his 158 wins, better than 57%.  That's basically unheard of and will likely never be duplicated again.  He was a two-time Hodge Trophy (MVP) winner, which has only happened twice.

Just saying... it's not fair to doubt Askren's ability, or compare him to Hendricks, based on that video. 

 


Where did you copy the above from? It's full of errors.

Askren never placed at the world championships in freestyle wrestling. NEVER.

Johnny was not a 2 time national champion and 1 time AA, he was a 4 time AA, 2 time national champion. He placed 5th as a frosh, won it as a soph and junior and was runner up as a senior.

When not copying incorrect info from wikipedia, and if you actually follow collegiate wrestling, it's fair to say they had VERY similar college careers, (Askren slightly better finish (5th vs 2nd one season, the rest identical) and he had the pinning style while Johnny took you down and out paced you.

Hendricks went right into MMA while Ben decided to try his luck at the Olympics . Ben qualified and even won a match, but he did not place then nor at the world championships. They were both VERY good wrestlers. Ben seems to have taken it up a level from Johnny with all his grappling that he's added.
14 days ago
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XcessiveZ
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Holy fuck, are some of you really that dumb?GSP would wipe the floor with Askren.Seriously guys. Phone Post 3.0
14 days ago
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SinCityHustler
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D241 - 
 
 
SinCityHustler - 
George St Pierre Once GSP decided to take a stand against PEDs, his performance suddenly diminished drastically. We see him gassing out when he was just a cardio king prior to taking the big PED stance. Johnny was throwing him around as if he was a shell of himself and put a beating on him we haven't see since Matt Serra make him quit to strikes. Ben beats anti PED GSP convincingly. Now if they agree to n otesting, GSP is probably too athletic for Ben. 
Gunnar Nelson Askren easily

Jake Shields chess match. Jake is getting long in the tooth and has slowed down IMO. Ben is your winner

Tyron Woodley Big brother beats on little brother. Askren is too much

9-1 or 8-2 if no testing against GSP
 
That's kinda fucked up man.
 
You aren't acknowledging that at the same time period, GSP was sidelined due to a Significant knee injury, the 2nd significant knee injury in as many years. He was sidelined, not fighting, so he was interviewed not about upcoming fights, but about other stuff. One thing he verbalized the most while in recovery, was how he feels UFC needs to take a stance on Peds.
 
I think that was a fairly classless accusation of you to make. 
I'm too alpha to ask you to take it back, but Herman Munster just called me, and he asks you to take it back.
 
 

I'm giving you a time table. I'm doing this because of my involvement in MMA and my ties to the sport. I wont accuse GSP of any specific drugs such as HGH or EPO, I haven't actually seen him take anything. But he did suddenly fall off just as he took his big drug stance. He also had a significant knee injury. I had the same thing. In fact, I broke my 5th and 6th vertebra. Didn't hinder my cardio one bit. Not at all, in fact, I came back better after my injuries. I believe it was GSP who told us he was EVEN better and the injury was good for him. I joked he should injure the other knee if he gets better following the rehabilitation and low and behold he injures the other knee! Maybe we'll see him come back even better than prior to the first injury. And no I don't have a link to the quote nor will I waste any time looking for it. You follow MMA closely and the rest of us who do should be aware he was saying as much in interviews after his rehab.

I hope GSP never gets busted, I think it would be bad for MMA. But I'm also not so naive as to not be able to see the writing on the wall. Just go back to the proposed testing during the Hendricks fight and how concerned his camp was with testing dates adn what would be tested for.

But lets not make this about GSP. It is merely one fighter from 11 we're discussing. My honest take, if there is no testing going on, GSP is probably too athletic for Ben. If there is serious testing and GSP isn't told when where or how, Ben probably beats the slower, less athletic, and less durable GSP. Just my opinion. great topic.
14 days ago
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FadeToBlack
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XcessiveZ - Holy fuck, are some of you really that dumb?GSP would wipe the floor with Askren.Seriously guys. Phone Post 3.0

Well, when you out it that way, it all makes sense now. Thanks for sharing your specific insight with your detailed reasoning. I just ask that next time, you make your post a bit shorter, because getting through all that was brutal.
14 days ago
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D241
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SinCityHustler - 
D241 - 
 
 
SinCityHustler - 
George St Pierre Once GSP decided to take a stand against PEDs, his performance suddenly diminished drastically. We see him gassing out when he was just a cardio king prior to taking the big PED stance. Johnny was throwing him around as if he was a shell of himself and put a beating on him we haven't see since Matt Serra make him quit to strikes. Ben beats anti PED GSP convincingly. Now if they agree to n otesting, GSP is probably too athletic for Ben. 
Gunnar Nelson Askren easily

Jake Shields chess match. Jake is getting long in the tooth and has slowed down IMO. Ben is your winner

Tyron Woodley Big brother beats on little brother. Askren is too much

9-1 or 8-2 if no testing against GSP
 
That's kinda fucked up man.
 
You aren't acknowledging that at the same time period, GSP was sidelined due to a Significant knee injury, the 2nd significant knee injury in as many years. He was sidelined, not fighting, so he was interviewed not about upcoming fights, but about other stuff. One thing he verbalized the most while in recovery, was how he feels UFC needs to take a stance on Peds.
 
I think that was a fairly classless accusation of you to make. 
I'm too alpha to ask you to take it back, but Herman Munster just called me, and he asks you to take it back.
 
 

I'm giving you a time table. I'm doing this because of my involvement in MMA and my ties to the sport. I wont accuse GSP of any specific drugs such as HGH or EPO, I haven't actually seen him take anything. But he did suddenly fall off just as he took his big drug stance. He also had a significant knee injury. I had the same thing. In fact, I broke my 5th and 6th vertebra. Didn't hinder my cardio one bit. Not at all, in fact, I came back better after my injuries. I believe it was GSP who told us he was EVEN better and the injury was good for him. I joked he should injure the other knee if he gets better following the rehabilitation and low and behold he injures the other knee! Maybe we'll see him come back even better than prior to the first injury. And no I don't have a link to the quote nor will I waste any time looking for it. You follow MMA closely and the rest of us who do should be aware he was saying as much in interviews after his rehab.

I hope GSP never gets busted, I think it would be bad for MMA. But I'm also not so naive as to not be able to see the writing on the wall. Just go back to the proposed testing during the Hendricks fight and how concerned his camp was with testing dates adn what would be tested for.

But lets not make this about GSP. It is merely one fighter from 11 we're discussing. My honest take, if there is no testing going on, GSP is probably too athletic for Ben. If there is serious testing and GSP isn't told when where or how, Ben probably beats the slower, less athletic, and less durable GSP. Just my opinion. great topic.

 

14 days ago
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D241
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You give me a time table, I give you a timeline.

 

 

Timeline-

You first insinuate that GSP is on illegal drugs. Your reasoning is "an apparent decline in skills".

I counter that with reminding you he had two significant knee surgeries.

 

You then reply saying "he did suddenly fall off".

 

Where here is my rebuttal to that.

Legendary fighters and their record at the end of their careers:

 

Royce Gracie-Draw, Loss, Win

Kazushi Sakuraba-Loss, Loss, Loss, Loss

Ken Shamrock-Loss, Loss, Loss, Loss, Loss, Win, Loss, Win, Loss

Don Frye-Loss, Win, Loss, Loss

TIto Ortiz-Loss, Draw, Loss, Loss, Loss, Win, Loss, Loss, Loss, Win

Chuck Liddell-Loss, Loss, Win, Loss, Loss, Loss

Evan Tanner-Loss, Loss, Win, Loss, Loss

Frank Shamrock-Loss, Win, Loss, Loss

Dan Severn-Loss, Loss, Win

Pat Miletich-Loss, Loss, Win

Antonio Nogueira-Loss, Win, Loss, Loss

Mark Coleman-Loss, Loss, Win, Loss

Matt Hughes-Loss, Loss

BJ Penn-Draw, Loss, Loss, Loss

Mirko Filipovic-Loss, Loss, Loss, Win, Loss

Igor Vovchanchyn-Loss, Loss

 

 

Winners who went out on top

Forest Griffin-Win, Win, Loss, Win

Jeremy Horn-Win, Loss, Win, Win, Win

Fedor-Win, Win, Win

Randy Couture-Win, Win, Win, Loss

GSP-Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win

 

So compared to other legends towards the end of their careers, how do you compare their records at the end of their established careers, to GSP's, and think...."declined"?

 
14 days ago
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D241
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Don't you think it would be "Normal" for GSP to be less dominant towards the end of his career?

 

According to your logic(SCH), GSP has been on illegal substances his entire UFC career. So being that UFC didn't change their stance on illegal PEDs until after GSP announced his retirement, you would think his decline at the end of his career is normal being that nothing changed regarding his "drug use", according to you.

 

 

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sekundarburnes
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I said 7-3 but meant 3-7
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XcessiveZ
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FadeToBlack -
XcessiveZ - Holy fuck, are some of you really that dumb?GSP would wipe the floor with Askren.Seriously guys. Phone Post 3.0

Well, when you out it that way, it all makes sense now. Thanks for sharing your specific insight with your detailed reasoning. I just ask that next time, you make your post a bit shorter, because getting through all that was brutal.
You mean besides the fact that GSP was arguably the best fighter in the history of MMA, with the best resume of wins, going 30 rounds without dropping a single one on the judges scorecards vs a guy who doesn't have a single top 10 win in his career yet.Is it really that hard for you to understand? Phone Post 3.0
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D241
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Edited: 09/01/14 4:34 PM
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XcessiveZ -  besides the fact that GSP was arguably the best fighter in the history of MMA, with the best resume of wins, going 30 rounds without dropping a single one on the judges scorecards vs a guy who doesn't have a single top 10 win in his career yet.Is it really that hard for you to understand? Phone Post 3.0
 

 

A good rebuttal to that would be that GSP has lost two times.

1 of his losses(50%), was to someone not ranked in the top 10.

 

Based on Askren's great wrestling, I'd think he has a great chance, more than what people gave Serra in Houston Tx.  Askren may not be ranked high, neither was Serra, and Askren would be given a better chance than Serra was, and we saw how that fight ended. With GSP's opponent getting his hand raised.


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