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UnderGround Forums >> FightMetric has it 30-27 for Machida (Pic)


8/4/13 2:29 AM
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Sublime7SD
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He was saying that he doesn't understand the rules the judges are going by/criteria they are using to score the fights. He wasn't implying that the UFC didn't explain scoring. He meant that the way the judges scored the fight flies in the face of what the rules say, based on his understanding of them.
8/4/13 3:12 AM
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MasterofMartialArts
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Sublime7SD -
MasterofMartialArts - Davis completed 2 of 10 takedowns and got the nod? Phone Post 3.0

Yes. I'd need to review the fight to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that he had Machida on the ground for less than a minute total. The takedown at the end of round two was only 15-20 seconds of ground time. I can't remember exactly how long the takedown in round one lasted, but it was also quite short. If I'm misremembering this, please correct me.

I thought Machida won pretty clearly and I'm disappointed that the judges took money he earned out of his pocket, but oh well. Machida isn't one of my favorite fighters, so I'm not personally upset about the loss, I'm just discouraged by the inconsistency of scoring in mma. The only predictable thing about the judges is that they are totally unpredictable.
I didn't see the fight which is why I keep asking questions, I was following your posts to keep updated, good shit bro, voted the fuck up. Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 3:14 AM
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MasterofMartialArts
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Standup29 -
McLeod - it was less than 50 seconds I believe.

And the total strikes count is off because they count the "pitter patter" body shots and such on the ground in those 40 seconds.
If you add the strikes up aside from that 40 seconds, the count is WAY in favor of Machida while on the feet.
But the strikes did happen and the significant strikes were very close in the first 2 rounds hence why the td's and subsequent GNP gave Davis the rounds.

Close rounds make TDs very important. Machida knows the rules and could have also tried for more tds. He is good at them and has used similar tactics to win fights. It was pretty sad he essentially blamed the UFC for his loss. Saying they didn't explain scoring to him. Wtf? Phone Post 3.0
He wasn't blaming the UFC. He was basically saying he doesn't understand how the judges were scoring it because he thought he won the fight. He usually doesn't say anything, so it's pretty telling that he is being outspoken about it. Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 9:19 AM
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r_o_y
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Edited: 08/04/13 9:23 AM
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Judges shall evaluate mixed martial arts techniques, such as effective striking, effective grappling, control of the ring/fighting area, effective aggressiveness and defense.



striking - machida

effective grappling - davis

control of ring - davis

effective aggressiveness - davis

defense - machida


punch numbers are important but the judges are looking at more. (at least i hope they are)


machida's great defense is awesome...but it starts to leave holes in other areas like grappling,ring control...and the big one for me AGGRESSIVENESS.


now should those two davis takedowns count? no probably not. but when davis did take him down who looked for submissions and went for strikes to the body looking for damage. that's what counts.

but machida is still awesome.
8/4/13 11:10 AM
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Attila
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So judge Chris Watts gave round 3 to Davis. Wow... that's absolutely impossible to defend. The fix was in.
8/4/13 1:03 PM
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FlyingKnee_bar
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where i was we couldnt hear the sound on the broadcast and everyone thought davis took rounds 1 and 2
8/4/13 1:16 PM
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rockethands33
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Prior to the statements below, I am in no way arguing, defending or agreeing with scores in this bout. There is no doubt that MMA Officiating as a whole must improve.

Some important notes to dismiss opinion and install fact:

1. Fight metrics are fun and interesting, period. Judges only assess EFFECTIVENESS as a result of an action, not the action itself. There is NO metric system that can know or detect the true impact on a fighter. The human senses are the best we have to work with. Otherwise, all officials are replaced by computers.

2. Judges do not have to or need to use all of the criteria for every round. (ex: If a round can be decided by the more effective striker/grappler, then effective aggressiveness and cage control don't come into play). The last two criterion are a "back up", just in case a judge cannot determine a winner by striking/grappling.

3. You cannot mix and match the criteria. They are in a specific order for a reason. Talking about cage control is useless, unless the round is even with striking, grappling and aggressiveness.

4. Whomever listed the order of striking, grappling, control of ring, effective aggressiveness and defense is far outdated in your information.

Here is the current criteria (in the order to be assessed):

1. Effective Striking/Grappling (weighed evenly)
2. Effective Aggression
3. Cage/Ring Control

5. Most commentators, media, fighters, trainers, fans, etc have an "opinion" on what they "believe" judging and reffing should be. Very few have actually taken the time to attend a training to find out the truth.

Think about this... NONE of the above listed people are focused 100% of the time on each round. They are typing, texting, coaching, drinking beer, talking with others, listening to biased commentary, etc.

The judges are doing none of that.

If you really want to find out the truth and have the most educated assessment, attend a training seminar or contact one of the training experts to get current, correct information.

We are happy to answer questions and increase knowledge of the sport.

All of that said, it's still fun to voice your opinion, debate with others and show the awesome passion of our sport.

www.combatconsulting.net

8/4/13 1:18 PM
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kevsh
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Edited: 08/04/13 1:19 PM
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Here's my problem with this illustrated by an example.

Two versions of a 1-round fight, both guys literally do nothing but stare at each other for the whole round except:

Fight 1: Fighter A shoots for a TD 5 times, is successful once.

Fight 2: Fighter A shoots for a TD once and is successful.

According to MMA judging these fights would both be scored exactly the same way: 10-9 for Fighter A, obviously. But it also shows that it doesn't matter how many times you miss a TD (and conversely for the other fighter, how many he stops it), just that you get one.

I'd say some credit should be given for stuffing a TD, especially if you block 80% of them as Machida did. To those saying that TD attempts constitute "aggression" I would counter that stuffing them constitutes "control".

8/4/13 1:47 PM
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MasterofMartialArts
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kevsh -

Here's my problem with this illustrated by an example.

Two versions of a 1-round fight, both guys literally do nothing but stare at each other for the whole round except:

Fight 1: Fighter A shoots for a TD 5 times, is successful once.

Fight 2: Fighter A shoots for a TD once and is successful.

According to MMA judging these fights would both be scored exactly the same way: 10-9 for Fighter A, obviously. But it also shows that it doesn't matter how many times you miss a TD (and conversely for the other fighter, how many he stops it), just that you get one.

I'd say some credit should be given for stuffing a TD, especially if you block 80% of them as Machida did. To those saying that TD attempts constitute "aggression" I would counter that stuffing them constitutes "control".

Definitely. If you are defending 8 out of 10 takedowns, you are effectively keeping the fight where you want it to be, thereby controlling it. Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 2:35 PM
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Fabefromfort
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The biggest thing that ruined boxing is crooked scoring. Corruption is not a factor here, but, I must say they have to let the fans know how they are scoring fights. How much do leg kicks count ? Is body and head kicks more points ? Are punches more points than kicking ? How about takedowns ? Aggression score points ? It should. Affective aggression that forces the action even better ( If a guy doesn't want to fight, he doesn't have to, even if he is in the cage, and the doors shut ). My worry is that the latter is true, and, if Anderson Silva stays out of a fight with Weidman they will give it to Silva regardless, and this is setting that up.
8/4/13 2:37 PM
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Fabefromfort
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Oh the other thing that ruined boxing ? Is fighters ducking fighters, especially champions. Fights that should get made, didn't.
8/4/13 3:49 PM
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UGCTT_iPray2bLaidByWeidman
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KingofBJJ -

We go through this almost everytime.  The UFC commentators are mostly to blame, because they won't educate their fans like the ones did for Strikeforce and Bellator.

Judges in both MMA and Boxing (and I assume Kick/Thai Boxing) judge fights on more than just strikes.  They also judge for AGGRESSION and RING AWARENESS.

In the case of MMA they also consider takedowns and attempted subs.  Of which Machida didn't try either for three rounds.

The bottomline Davis came to fight.  Machida came to fight not to lose.

You list all the criteria, but fail to use itbproperly nor mention that each of the five criteria are NOT weighed equally.

Using the criteria properly, machida won every round. Number two being the only one close enough to call 10-10 or sloght edge to Davis. Phone Post
8/4/13 5:33 PM
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Fabefromfort
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Here's an example of scoring: Solid power punch is the basis. That will score 3 points. A good jab: 2 points. A weak jab 1 point. Hooks, upper cuts, and the like, dependant on their power of delivery: 1,2 or 3. Obviously Weidman's left hook on Silva is a 3 as an example.Leg kicks are 1 or 2 points depending on delivery, and power. Body and head kicks, 1,2 or 3 points, depending et al. So here you can see kicks are a little less points in the legs, and equal to punches upstairs. I think that point distribution should be fair, as body blows are more damaging, and hence the appropriate scoring. Knees to the body should be 1 or 2 points. It is impossible sometimes to see knee effectiveness to the body so it should be weighted with a heavy rock just because it is too tough to see, other than on instant replay ( which is another topic ) Dole out a 3 if you are sure as in the case of Anderson Silva's knee shots to Sonnen, Bonnar, and Franklin. Knees to the head will probably score a 3 and an end or close to it to the fight, but if not, score that 1,2, or 3. Elbows 1,2, or 3 standing. 1 or 2, or 3 with extreme prejudice. Probably 1 or 2. Knees and elbows on the mat are weighted down, just because they are less effective, so dole out 2s and 3s here with extreme prejudice. Most of your scoring here will be 1s. Aggression standing or on the mat should be rewarded accordingly, by the seconds, and minutes, say, maybe give the aggressor 3 points at the end of the round, 5 if the aggression is affective, and he is landing shots, or forcing action. This is kind of a roundabout way I score fights. It should be followed closely by the UFC.
8/4/13 5:54 PM
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r_o_y
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Edited: 08/04/13 6:05 PM
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4. Whomever listed the order of striking, grappling, control of ring, effective aggressiveness and defense is far outdated in your information. Here is the current criteria (in the order to be assessed):1. Effective Striking/Grappling (weighed evenly)2. Effective Aggression3. Cage/Ring Controlling
That was me. Sorry used old info.
8/4/13 5:55 PM
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HexRei
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I thought he won too. Was very surprised at the decision.
8/4/13 6:01 PM
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Leck Brosnar
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CRMartin11 - 30 - 27 Machida

and

29-28 Machida

are the only acceptable scores. If you scored it anything else you are a dolt, and don't have a firm understanding of mma.

Yes sir
8/4/13 10:31 PM
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McLeod
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Also, as a side note, why does it say Machida didn't get a takedown? He took Davis down once didn't he? and got behind him? Then Davis managed to stand back up and Machida threw a head kick off the break?
8/4/13 10:50 PM
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Brasco
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Fight Metric are a bunch of KNOBS obviously
8/4/13 10:56 PM
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Sublime7SD
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After rewatching the fight, I was incorrect earlier in the thread. I said that Davis had Machida down for less than a minute total, but it was actually a bit over a minute, 1:15 or so. I still scored the fight 29-28 Machida, giving him 1 and 3. Anyways, just wanted to correct myself. Cheers.
8/4/13 11:01 PM
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Ornoku
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circa305 - Davis won about the last 30 seconds of round 1 and 2. The rest of the fight was all Machida.

Davis had 5x more takedowns stuffed than takedowns secured. That should count against him IMO.

Pretty sure this decision was declared before the fight took place. UFC would rather have Davis fight Bones than a rematch with Machida.

I love it when it has to come down to this. There's no chance things like that happen without someone letting it out.
8/4/13 11:52 PM
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RKing85
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I put 0 stalk in scorecards that are only put together by numbers and not actually watching the fight.

Not saying Machida wasn't the winner, just saying you can't judge fights based on numbers.
8/4/13 11:53 PM
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WhiteMustang
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Why don't they post the scores after each rd on a scoreboard? Every other sport does it. Lets know who is winning or losing during a fight. No more excuses! I think it would make fights more entertaining. Why is it a big secret until the end? Phone Post 3.0
8/5/13 12:01 AM
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armbarseverywhere
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WhiteMustang - Why don't they post the scores after each rd on a scoreboard? Every other sport does it. Lets know who is winning or losing during a fight. No more excuses! I think it would make fights more entertaining. Why is it a big secret until the end? Phone Post 3.0

The athletic commissions used to get pissed off about the Eddie Bravo breakdowns. It's obviously politics. Fuckin sucks bro.
8/5/13 4:22 AM
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Enemies
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Davis definitely deserved to win. He took Machida down. And everybody knows a takedown is worth 50,000 punches to the face. Right?
8/5/13 8:13 PM
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HexRei
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manzuri -  That picture is only showing stats from round 1 and it even says Davis won at the top? Phone Post

That's because at the top they are citing the official decision. Look down near the bottom for the winner by their count.

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