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UnderGround Forums >> Instead of bitching....real solution bad judging


8/4/13 10:53 AM
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SKARHEAD
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We need better, more competent, educated judges right ???




OK, so where do we find them ? Who is competent and who actually wants the job ? Where do we find these judges ? Are there any old pro fighters, coaches, etc that are even interested in judging ? Who wants the job that is actually qualified ? ANYBODY ?! What is preventing them from being put in place ?



How exactly do we put better judges in place ??? Seriously, all we do is bitch and whine...and it's 100% justified, but what needs to actually be done here ?



Step by step UG....solutions ?
8/4/13 10:58 AM
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SKARHEAD
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ChokeEmOut - 

Getting a competent judge employed by an AC is like getting politicians in office who actually carry out the deeds of the masses that "elected" him/her.

Corrupt and won't change anytime soon.


So THIS is the major problem....thought so.
8/4/13 11:02 AM
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JoeHurley
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Fighters and coaches arent an immediate answer. It seems like they would be more knowledgable and better qualified but nobody seems to notice that when there is a close fight that fighters are just as divided as the fans and judges. Go back and look at comments and reactions after some controversial matches. Cormier is saying it was close last night but sided with Davis.

The truth is that judging us personal opinion based on individual perception and experience. Fighters can be just ad biased depending on their background and style. Wrestlers are going to see things differently from a boxer. A bjj guy has a different view of groundwork than a wrestler does. Like i said, go look at fighter reactions ti some close fights and see for yourself. Phone Post
8/4/13 11:06 AM
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Clarence Hurt
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I've always had this exact same idea. Why arent retired fighters or coaches doing whatever they need to do to be qualified by athletic commissions to become judges? If the fighters want better judging this seems like a possible solution or at least a leap in the right direction. But then again I understand retired fighters become coaches and run their own schools so I assume they're either too busy or make more money supporting their families that way. Phone Post
8/4/13 11:08 AM
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Clarence Hurt
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Some good points, JoeHurley. Phone Post
8/4/13 11:20 AM
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Oontyex
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Seems to me that there are 2 seperare issues 1) many feel the scoring criteria, as commonly interpreted / implemented is rewarding the wrong things. 2) in controversial decisions it is often argued that these criteria weren't followed accurately / proportionately

I think the UFC needs to 1) changed some rules / scoring criteria to make things that lead to finishes weighed more heavily and transitions and set ups (eg jabs and takedowns) weighted much much much less heavily in the round scoring
2) ideally have the judges as internal employees instead of athletic commission people - have it so performance reviews can be done so the culture is that their judges / refs are the best - like how basketball refs have a good reputation in the nba Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 11:27 AM
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Kinkle
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8/4/13 11:28 AM
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SKARHEAD
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JoeHurley -  Fighters and coaches arent an immediate answer. It seems like they would be more knowledgable and better qualified but nobody seems to notice that when there is a close fight that fighters are just as divided as the fans and judges. Go back and look at comments and reactions after some controversial matches. Cormier is saying it was close last night but sided with Davis.

The truth is that judging us personal opinion based on individual perception and experience. Fighters can be just ad biased depending on their background and style. Wrestlers are going to see things differently from a boxer. A bjj guy has a different view of groundwork than a wrestler does. Like i said, go look at fighter reactions ti some close fights and see for yourself. Phone Post

You have some solid points there, but surely someone who is trained in MMA and can actually see and understand the various techniques and nuances of the sport is far FAR better than a boxing judge who literally understands NOTHING of what he's seeing (wrestling,BJJ, kickboxing) except maybe the punches.
8/4/13 11:28 AM
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SKARHEAD
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JoeHurley -  Fighters and coaches arent an immediate answer. It seems like they would be more knowledgable and better qualified but nobody seems to notice that when there is a close fight that fighters are just as divided as the fans and judges. Go back and look at comments and reactions after some controversial matches. Cormier is saying it was close last night but sided with Davis.

The truth is that judging us personal opinion based on individual perception and experience. Fighters can be just ad biased depending on their background and style. Wrestlers are going to see things differently from a boxer. A bjj guy has a different view of groundwork than a wrestler does. Like i said, go look at fighter reactions ti some close fights and see for yourself. Phone Post

You have some solid points there, but surely someone who is trained in MMA and can actually see and understand the various techniques and nuances of the sport is far FAR better than a boxing judge who literally understands NOTHING of what he's seeing (wrestling,BJJ, kickboxing) except maybe the punches.
8/4/13 11:28 AM
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SKARHEAD
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Edited: 08/04/13 11:28 AM
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.
8/4/13 11:31 AM
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Newaza freak
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It's not even entirely the judges all the time.

Do you really think that this will totally eliminate all close and controversial decisions all the time ?

Do you really think there is an outright winner in a match like this?
Or in a match like rampage vs lyoto? or Henderson vs lyoto ?

The system is also somewhat to blame!

Imagin for a second ,if all major boxing fights ,where always contested for 3 rounds only ?

Can you imagine how much outcry there would be ,anytime a major 3 round boxing match would end ?,anytime 2 very closely contested "toss up "rounds where part of the equation?

Could you imagin having to go back into boxing history and pick a winner of all the glorious past boxing fights and decide the winner based on the first 3 rounds?

You would be amazed at who the winners would be in most instances.

Also,

Why do you think there is so much controversy in amateur boxing and the Olympics and 3 rd matches?

Why do you think they opted to go to an electronic system of judging for so many years?,only to recently now have to come back to the 10 PT must system ?


This is not going to end anytime soon with
3 round fights. yes ,sure some fights are going to have a clear cut conclusion but there are always going to be fights (contested under 3 rds), in which,regardless of who the judges pick,there are no real winners. Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 11:41 AM
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Jeon Sa
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It was a close fight. Can't blame the judges for that one blame the fighters. Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 11:44 AM
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Jeon Sa
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Newaza freak - It's not even entirely the judges all the time.

Do you really think that this will totally eliminate all close and controversial decisions all the time ?

Do you really think there is an outright winner in a match like this?
Or in a match like rampage vs lyoto? or Henderson vs lyoto ?

The system is also somewhat to blame!

Imagin for a second ,if all major boxing fights ,where always contested for 3 rounds only ?

Can you imagine how much outcry there would be ,anytime a major 3 round boxing match would end ?,anytime 2 very closely contested "toss up "rounds where part of the equation?

Could you imagin having to go back into boxing history and pick a winner of all the glorious past boxing fights and decide the winner based on the first 3 rounds?

You would be amazed at who the winners would be in most instances.

Also,

Why do you think there is so much controversy in amateur boxing and the Olympics and 3 rd matches?

Why do you think they opted to go to an electronic system of judging for so many years?,only to recently now have to come back to the 10 PT must system ?


This is not going to end anytime soon with
3 round fights. yes ,sure some fights are going to have a clear cut conclusion but there are always going to be fights (contested under 3 rds), in which,regardless of who the judges pick,there are no real winners. Phone Post 3.0
It happens in 5 round title fights, just look at the lightweight division. Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 12:06 PM
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Newaza freak
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Exactly Phone Post 3.0
8/4/13 12:38 PM
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pegson123
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Obviously the system is rooted.

But 10-9 system works decent for boxing as any judgement errors are usually worked out over the 12 rounds.

Since MMA IS 3 rounds there is less room for error and for that error to be polished out.

So why not try having 7 judges. Just for a few test runs.

I think more correct decisions would be reached. As you need four judges to agree and not just two. Phone Post
8/4/13 12:50 PM
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Haulport
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For YEARS I have been bitching AND proposing a solid solution to this problem:

http://www.ibiny.com/files/altscoring.pdf

The best way to get even dumb judges to do better is to have a specific scoring system that can be looked at and QUESTIONED after a fight. Now there will always be subjective problems and the striking scoring is where that comes in the most, but a very specific system like the one I have designed would change things in ways most people would be shocked by.

A judge could just half-assedly watch a round and say that someone won the round because he took the guy down at the end of it. If the 0.5 points he gets from the takedown doesn't outweigh the 2.5 points the other guy got from striking for 3 mins then the end of the round won't get over-weighed like it does so much nowadays by dummy judges.

 

8/4/13 1:08 PM
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2mmafreaks
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Solution:
Longer opening round
Less rules (esp kneess on ground)
Judge the fight overall not on rounds
If it is close and neither fighter really won got to a sudden death round.
If that extra round is boring both get a draw and a pay cut Phone Post 3.0
8/6/13 6:05 PM
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UGCTT_LastCall
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The answer will come in the form of a simplified system that is not required to be translated into a "10pt must". A simple system....like mine.

When you consider that a fighter gets 9pts not because he earned them, but because the rules tell the judge to give him 9 (or less), it becomes clear that a merit based scoring is the answer.

However, then comes the issue of "which aspect of a fight is most valued when scoring"?....and I have the answer to that as well.

Ask me, I'll tell ya.
8/6/13 6:11 PM
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ranier wolfcastle
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i had an odd idea where judges score each minute on a 10 pt must.

would be complicated though, theyd have to delay the fight around like 20 seconds between minutes (so judges can score it) that judges would have to watch on a screen instead of live

in the end i think it would be an improvement on the current system

8/6/13 6:15 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Edited: 08/06/13 6:15 PM
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ChokeEmOut - 

Getting a competent judge employed by an AC is like getting politicians in office who actually carry out the deeds of the masses that "elected" him/her.

Corrupt and won't change anytime soon.

 

This, you can't displace what has no system to hold them responsible.

 

 

Evidence is Keith Kizer and Adalaide Byrd, if no one by now values MMA enough at the government level to intervene after their incomptence it's going to be permanent or till someone can directly prove that their incompetence is leading to a safety issue or paid for by competitors to MMA.

 

I would think Kim Winslow and Mazzagatti are a good start but they have their own power to keep their job no matter what apparently, and the UFC, who apparently picks judges and refs for Brazil, brought Sal D'Amato last weekend.

 

I think that is evidence they don't have all the control they want in picking good judges when they can or don't want to.

8/6/13 6:16 PM
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Mica Kizbig
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Display the fight metric stats so the fighters can see it between rounds. A decision is a draw and no "win" money goes to either fighter. No need for judges at all.
8/6/13 6:17 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Different rules do nothing unless like Haulport said ontop of the rule changes it has the authority to hold the decisions to a standard.

8/6/13 6:18 PM
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Leck Brosnar
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pegson123 -  Obviously the system is rooted.

But 10-9 system works decent for boxing as any judgement errors are usually worked out over the 12 rounds.

Since MMA IS 3 rounds there is less room for error and for that error to be polished out.

So why not try having 7 judges. Just for a few test runs.

I think more correct decisions would be reached. As you need four judges to agree and not just two. Phone Post

8/6/13 6:18 PM
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UGCTT_LastCall
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Edited: 08/06/13 6:18 PM
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The 10pt system works for boxing because all they do is punch each other. It was picked up for MMA because that's the only thing the licensed officials (boxing officials) knew how to use to score a fight. They should have started a whole new system.

Currently, the many aspects of an MMA bout are translated into that 10pt system. This "translation" is where the problem lies.

I say...don't translate anything. List the categories available in an MMA bout: 1.striking, 2.grappling, 3.control (where the fight takes place), 4.aggression (working to damage/finish) and 5.damage inflicted.

I suggest we offer 1pt for each of those categories per round. Whoever displays the more effective striking in a round wins that point; whoever is the more effective grappler wins that point; etc etc. in each round.
8/7/13 3:36 PM
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UGCTT_LastCall
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My proposed 5pt (total) per round system could eliminate draw rounds while also making it easier to judge a fight. Adelaide Byrd and Cecil Peoples COMBINED couldn't fuck it up too bad.

For instance, it can/would eliminate the argument over which is scored higher - 10 jabs, or 1 haymaker - because striking and damage are scored separately. The better striker is the one who lands the most strikes, not the one that hits the hardest...but the better striker doesn't always inflict the most damage.

I'm happy to explain it further for anyone that wants clarification of how it would be employed. Even using specific examples, if you have some.

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