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UnderGround Forums >> Instead of bitching....real solution bad judging


8/13/13 5:09 PM
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ranier wolfcastle
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the half point thing would help a bit if they ever implement it

8/13/13 5:38 PM
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ausgepicht
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Having competent judges within a BROKEN system, still allows corruption. The 10 point must system MUST GO.

8/14/13 12:17 AM
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UGCTT_LastCall
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That much we have agreed upon. It's where to go from there that is still up for massive debate.

I believe it is pretty clear while watching any fight who is doing what. This guy is doing this, that guy is doing that. One is better at this, one is better at that. It's isn't HOW THEY JUDGE that is screwed up...it's HOW THEY SCORE.

5pts available per round, 1pt goes to the better competitor in each of the five categories - striking, grappling, control of fight/cage, offensive output/aggression, damage.

Simple. Satisfying.
8/14/13 12:25 AM
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tuffnuff
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I think it would be cool to see the scores between rounds to at least be transparent.

8/14/13 1:52 AM
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FeardBucker
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SKARHEAD - We need better, more competent, educated judges right ???




OK, so where do we find them ? Who is competent and who actually wants the job ? Where do we find these judges ? Are there any old pro fighters, coaches, etc that are even interested in judging ? Who wants the job that is actually qualified ? ANYBODY ?! What is preventing them from being put in place ?



How exactly do we put better judges in place ??? Seriously, all we do is bitch and whine...and it's 100% justified, but what needs to actually be done here ?



Step by step UG....solutions ?
It will never be a non issue, even if you went strictly with compustrike as they tend to compare when there is a close decision, you take out the damage factor. Only way imo is to add more judges. Hopefully then the shitty calls are outweighed by the right ones. May be harder to do a 5 judge panel though.... Phone Post
8/14/13 2:18 AM
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ausgepicht
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FeardBucker - 
SKARHEAD - We need better, more competent, educated judges right ???




OK, so where do we find them ? Who is competent and who actually wants the job ? Where do we find these judges ? Are there any old pro fighters, coaches, etc that are even interested in judging ? Who wants the job that is actually qualified ? ANYBODY ?! What is preventing them from being put in place ?



How exactly do we put better judges in place ??? Seriously, all we do is bitch and whine...and it's 100% justified, but what needs to actually be done here ?



Step by step UG....solutions ?
It will never be a non issue, even if you went strictly with compustrike as they tend to compare when there is a close decision, you take out the damage factor. Only way imo is to add more judges. Hopefully then the shitty calls are outweighed by the right ones. May be harder to do a 5 judge panel though.... Phone Post

Damage isn't limited to how much force a person unloads. It's relative to the person receiving it. In other words, one person's 100% punch may KO one, stun another and leave another unphased. Every fight would be different. You can't factor damage in, this way. You could count strikes landed as ONE aspect of striking dominance. Volume and accuracy are important striking traits.

The one thing boxing does have right is the mainll objective knockdown. If you hit someone flush and they go down on the canvas/mat, it's objective. It's not up for debate that someone went down. He either fell or didn't. Of course, on rare occasions people slip, but it's still a better system and instant replay should be incorporated. The fighter who got the knockdown should be AWARDED. In the current boxing system, the person who got knocked down is PENALIZED.

Every sport - except those who borrowed boxing's corrupt 10 point must system - use an accumulation of points to determine a winner. They remove subjectivity AS BEST AS CAN BE DONE. No system is failproof, but a system that is based on subjectivity is inherently flawed and far inferior. Fencing, Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, Football, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, Tennis, etc....use an accumulation, REWARD based system.  Boxing created the 10 point must system to ALLOW corruption. MMA borrowed a corrupt system to gain legitimacy when things were looking bad for the sport.

It's time we join the rest of the sports world with an accumulation, reward based, primarily objective system and leave the subjective, inhernently flawed, corrupt 10 point must system behind.

8/14/13 2:29 AM
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Oontyex
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Should let the fighters see the scores in between rounds - would prevent 2 Guys going into the third both thinking they're up on scores Phone Post 3.0
8/14/13 1:17 PM
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tuffnuff
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Oontyex - Should let the fighters see the scores in between rounds - would prevent 2 Guys going into the third both thinking they're up on scores Phone Post 3.0

this

8/14/13 1:23 PM
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UGCTT_LastCall
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Oontyex - Should let the fighters see the scores in between rounds - would prevent 2 Guys going into the third both thinking they're up on scores Phone Post 3.0

It would inevitably result in only one of them coasting...instead of both, right?
8/14/13 2:01 PM
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kevsh
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I don't know about other sports but when the NHL implements a rule change they make a video showing examples and send it out to all teams.

I'm wondering if athletic commissions do such a thing in regards to scoring? That is, if the NSAC produced a video for both judges and fighters that show how scoring works.

For example, show examples of what constitutes "Octagon control" and what doesn't. Show examples of a significant strike versus one that isn't, and so on.

Like almost everyone, I believe the scoring system could use some changes but perhaps part of the problem is that judges and fighters have different interpretations of the current system and at least a partial solution would be making sure both sides understand it explicitly.
8/14/13 3:14 PM
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Haulport
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kevsh - I don't know about other sports but when the NHL implements a rule change they make a video showing examples and send it out to all teams.

I'm wondering if athletic commissions do such a thing in regards to scoring? That is, if the NSAC produced a video for both judges and fighters that show how scoring works.

For example, show examples of what constitutes "Octagon control" and what doesn't. Show examples of a significant strike versus one that isn't, and so on.

Like almost everyone, I believe the scoring system could use some changes but perhaps part of the problem is that judges and fighters have different interpretations of the current system and at least a partial solution would be making sure both sides understand it explicitly.

LOL!

Yeah right. Then send out manuals and videos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahahahaha!

8/14/13 7:25 PM
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kevsh
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Edited: 08/14/13 7:25 PM
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Haulport - 
kevsh - I don't know about other sports but when the NHL implements a rule change they make a video showing examples and send it out to all teams.

I'm wondering if athletic commissions do such a thing in regards to scoring? That is, if the NSAC produced a video for both judges and fighters that show how scoring works.

For example, show examples of what constitutes "Octagon control" and what doesn't. Show examples of a significant strike versus one that isn't, and so on.

Like almost everyone, I believe the scoring system could use some changes but perhaps part of the problem is that judges and fighters have different interpretations of the current system and at least a partial solution would be making sure both sides understand it explicitly.

LOL!

Yeah right. Then send out manuals and videos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahahahaha!


Seriously though, I'm asking: How does an MMA fighter know what the judges consider Octagon Control or a Significant Strike? Or at least the basic criteria?

For example, if a fighter remains in the middle of the ring for the majority of a round while his opponent is constantly close to the fence, is that "control"? Or does it have to be forced, as in pressing him against the cage, controlling him on the ground, etc.?

I'm not at all suggesting a manual on how to score points, just if there is any attempt on the part of ACs to educate fighters on what they're looking for.

8/14/13 7:28 PM
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Masakyst
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Put Cecil Peoples and Adelaide Byrd on a rocket to the moon. 95% of all judging problems solved instantly.
8/15/13 12:59 PM
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UGCTT_LastCall
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Any new, proposed scoring/judging system would require some sort of training....


....except mine.


Suck it.
8/15/13 10:52 PM
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Haulport
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kevsh - 
Haulport - 
kevsh - I don't know about other sports but when the NHL implements a rule change they make a video showing examples and send it out to all teams.

I'm wondering if athletic commissions do such a thing in regards to scoring? That is, if the NSAC produced a video for both judges and fighters that show how scoring works.

For example, show examples of what constitutes "Octagon control" and what doesn't. Show examples of a significant strike versus one that isn't, and so on.

Like almost everyone, I believe the scoring system could use some changes but perhaps part of the problem is that judges and fighters have different interpretations of the current system and at least a partial solution would be making sure both sides understand it explicitly.

LOL!

Yeah right. Then send out manuals and videos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahahahaha!


Seriously though, I'm asking: How does an MMA fighter know what the judges consider Octagon Control or a Significant Strike? Or at least the basic criteria?

For example, if a fighter remains in the middle of the ring for the majority of a round while his opponent is constantly close to the fence, is that "control"? Or does it have to be forced, as in pressing him against the cage, controlling him on the ground, etc.?

I'm not at all suggesting a manual on how to score points, just if there is any attempt on the part of ACs to educate fighters on what they're looking for.


In all seriousness my point was that the Commissions DON'T DO SHIT (even the best of them) and most of the judges, refs and fighters couldn't answer your question because the rules are so vague and subjective that it is a toss up of what they really mean.

8/15/13 11:35 PM
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UGCTT_LastCall
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IMO - "control" refers to who dictates where the fight is taking place.

Condit vs Diaz for example: Nick controlled the pace (pushing the action/moving forward), but was not able to control the space...as evidenced by Condit's ability to continually create distance after counter-striking.

A fighter maintaining top position is "controlling" the fight only as it pertains to "where". That does not necessarily mean that the fighter is winning.

"Who is winning" should be decided on other factors as well. Each, I think, best judges separately...as outlined in my proposed scoring change(s).

WHAT?!
8/16/13 12:53 AM
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pegson123
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It's pretty clear That the system is fundamentally rooted. But I don't see any new scoring criteria out there thats so obviously perfect that it's a no brainier to implement.

But 10-9 system works decent enough for boxing as any judgement errors are usually worked out over the 12 rounds.

Since MMA IS 3 rounds there is less room for error and for that error to be polished out over the course of the bout.

So why not try having 7 judges. Just for a few test runs.

I think more correct decisions would be reached. As you need four judges to agree and not just two.

It would be easy to try out. Phone Post
8/16/13 7:57 AM
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pitbullismyfather
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I like rogans idea where judges should be sitting in front of multiple angle screens. Something about where they're sitting and having to look through the cage seems inefficient. Phone Post 3.0

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