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BJJGround Forum >> No gi grading


8/18/13 9:51 PM
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Hunter V - 
GrahamJ - 
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Subzero90 - 
Sgt. Slaphead - No-gi is a part of fundamental jiujitsu skill, to not do it is a disservice to the student. To only do no-gi is a disservice to the art/ No-gi only, is not BJJ....it can be a of jiujitsu, but IMHO it is not BJJ. Same as there is no such thing a no-gi judo. JMHO.

For several years after I made blue belt (w/gi) I didn't care, I was only really interested in learning fighting skill using jiujitsu as a foundation on which I could add other skills/techniques. Then I figured out that the gi offered the same benefits and much broader useful skill, and made training interesting and enjoyable again.

Honestly the gi offers no benefit to a persons nogi game, other than lacklustre over hooks and under hooks.  If a person spent 100% of their time doing nogi they'll inevitably have a better nogi game than if they split time.  They are different sports.


how many yrs will it take edddie to prove that point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HChzRB8h6LU

"It is crucial to train with the gi to have the finest technique."

- Marcelo Garcia, the only man to have won The ADCC no gi submission grappling tournament four times.

and he also advocates for his students to train 50% gi, 50% no gi so what was the point again?

what part? waiting for 10th planet to prove the gi's a waste of time or marcelo sayn you need to train in the gi to have the best grappling technique.
8/19/13 1:19 AM
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GrahamJ
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Yep.
8/19/13 7:14 AM
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thebasher
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are we really doing this again !

couldn't imagine not doing gi and no-gi or even half gi like Eddie..
8/19/13 8:18 AM
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trianglegrrl
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I used to hate training in the gi an then I switched to a Carlson Gracie Team gym. One afternoon Mark showed me a spider/leg lasso sweep, a sweep we call Orgazmo, a cross-choke variant we call the Root Canal, and the bow and arrow choke. I was hooked. The first two or three months after that were very frustrating because I didn't know how to deal with grips, but eventually I settled into it. Now I love it.

These days I like both of them but I prefer the gi. I teach a mixed gi/no-gi class on Fridays that gives me the opportunity to talk about the differences and similarities between gi and no-gi techniques and principles.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but it's difficult for me to see how training in the gi makes my no-gi better, or vice versa. I think they are very different games. So here is a question for those who say that training in one makes the other better: what are the specific benefits to cross-training that you couldn't get from training in just one style?

8/19/13 9:26 AM
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no concrete answer,thats why I went with the marcelo quote graham posted.only 1 thing for sure ,a no gi bb rank dose not make you a bb in bjj.why do the call themselves bjj bb's?
8/19/13 9:43 AM
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chew22
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some people like peanut butter.

some people like chocolate.

some people like Reece's peanut butter cups.

IMO.

and some people like peeing in Wheaties.
8/19/13 9:47 AM
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slideyfoot
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joshjitsu - I think everyone should train gi. That said, I think we are getting to the point wear a 5 stage grading system like the bjj belt system would be a great idea for NoGi. I like how the IBJJF separates NoGi divisions by belt. Phone Post 3.0

Nathan Leverton from Leicester Shootfighters has been working on something pretty much like that (although it has seven stages rather than five). I've been to a few of his seminars and thought his teaching was very impressive (he's got a long history in UK grappling).

It's still pretty small, but I like what I've seen of it so far (I've attended two seminars at this point, both five hours long). I've never been a big fan of training nogi, but Leverton's methodical, professional, non-pushy approach appeals to me in a way that something like 10th Planet does not.

http://www.leverage-grappling.com/about/

The website unfortunately has a couple of elements from the old TLI style template (like big 'SIGN UP NOW' buttons), but I've not seen any pushy marketing from LSG at all.
8/19/13 2:48 PM
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Dan Pagan
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Here's a way to rank no-GI...

Would have to tweak the timeframes but here goes nothing...

Novice= white
Beginner= blue
Intermediate= purple
Advanced= brown
Expert= black

Groundbreaking stuff Phone Post 3.0
8/19/13 4:57 PM
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The Wizzle
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Hunter V - 
GrahamJ - Are there any strictly no gi guys who are at the top of the no gi game - i.e., they consistently medal at no gi pan Ams/worlds...?

Beyond some 10th planet guys that have done well, nope. And that is mainly as if you want to do those you have to have verified bjj rank by a recognized 2nd degree black belt or up. So there is no opportunity for someone who really just does no gi only to be able to go in to test things out.


Although he is a mma fighter josh barnett is a high level, competitive, no gi, non bjj based grappler.



Also as someone who has practiced MA's on and off for 20 years and grappled for 6 years and is also unranked in bjj I feel something should be done eventually. It can be weird when I visit other clubs and get lumped in with beginners.
8/19/13 5:01 PM
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The Wizzle
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additionally there would need to be some governing body set up to recognize and certify who can give these no-ti grades.....what's to stop a whole unsanctioned belt giving and recieving frenzy?
8/19/13 11:53 PM
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Subzero90
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Where I live there are a few schools that give out a nogi belt.  Most tourneys around here have the nogi broken down into belt divisions, so I don't see what the problem is.  I tell people I'm a purple belt in nogi jiu Jitsu not BJJ.. and that is the truth.

8/20/13 12:21 AM
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GrahamJ
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trianglegrrl - 

I used to hate training in the gi an then I switched to a Carlson Gracie Team gym. One afternoon Mark showed me a spider/leg lasso sweep, a sweep we call Orgazmo, a cross-choke variant we call the Root Canal, and the bow and arrow choke. I was hooked. The first two or three months after that were very frustrating because I didn't know how to deal with grips, but eventually I settled into it. Now I love it.

These days I like both of them but I prefer the gi. I teach a mixed gi/no-gi class on Fridays that gives me the opportunity to talk about the differences and similarities between gi and no-gi techniques and principles.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but it's difficult for me to see how training in the gi makes my no-gi better, or vice versa. I think they are very different games. So here is a question for those who say that training in one makes the other better: what are the specific benefits to cross-training that you couldn't get from training in just one style?


I think training gi makes no gi much better; the other way around, however, I don't think is so impacting.

I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier; the friction of the gi makes escapes harder because you can't rely on sweat to allow you to just slip out of things.

The gi therefore forces people to think, and use technique, at every point, making it an invaluable training aid.
When you then train without the gi, you will have the same mindset of using technique, rather than relying on explosiveness, slippiness, etcetera. - which are much, much easier to gain than the sophisticated technique acquired by gi training.

...and that's why Eddie Bravo will never produce anybody to challenge someone like Caio Terra, or Marcelo Garcia, whose skills come from gi training.
Braulio didn't train no gi until brown belt - then went and won weight, and absolute at ADCC - whereas guys who've trained no gi all their lives have never managed to even medal.

BJJ has always been a results-based MA: the results speak for themselves.
8/24/13 4:29 PM
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Tomato Can
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"I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier"

Where in the holy hell do people get this idea? I am a small guy and I find the gi to be MUCH more difficult against larger opponents. Yes, I have grips in the gi, but larger guys have BETTER, STRONGER grips, that are harder to break. The idea that the gi makes it easy for the small guy is complete and utter nonsense.
8/24/13 6:11 PM
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Hunter V
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The Wizzle - 
Hunter V - 
GrahamJ - Are there any strictly no gi guys who are at the top of the no gi game - i.e., they consistently medal at no gi pan Ams/worlds...?

Beyond some 10th planet guys that have done well, nope. And that is mainly as if you want to do those you have to have verified bjj rank by a recognized 2nd degree black belt or up. So there is no opportunity for someone who really just does no gi only to be able to go in to test things out.


Although he is a mma fighter josh barnett is a high level, competitive, no gi, non bjj based grappler.



Also as someone who has practiced MA's on and off for 20 years and grappled for 6 years and is also unranked in bjj I feel something should be done eventually. It can be weird when I visit other clubs and get lumped in with beginners.

lol Josh actually is a bjj black belt now as well.
8/26/13 8:44 AM
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The Elastic Assassin
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Tomato Can - "I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier"

Where in the holy hell do people get this idea? I am a small guy and I find the gi to be MUCH more difficult against larger opponents. Yes, I have grips in the gi, but larger guys have BETTER, STRONGER grips, that are harder to break. The idea that the gi makes it easy for the small guy is complete and utter nonsense.
Qft.... Phone Post
8/26/13 9:49 AM
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misterw
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Tomato Can - "I think the gi is a big deal because it slows everything way down, allowing the smaller/weaker people to defeat people easier because applying technique is easier"

Where in the holy hell do people get this idea? I am a small guy and I find the gi to be MUCH more difficult against larger opponents. Yes, I have grips in the gi, but larger guys have BETTER, STRONGER grips, that are harder to break. The idea that the gi makes it easy for the small guy is complete and utter nonsense.

Yes. As a small guy, the one advantage I have is quickness and mobility. The gi game slows things down and grips prevent you from moving. I find it harder to deal with big guys in gi, because they sometimes just latch on and their grips can be very strong.
8/26/13 10:48 AM
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Tomato Can
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As a little guy there is nothing worse than a 200 pounder (or just a 170 pounder with ultra strong grips) ragdolling you around with a collar grip. At least in no-gi I can pummel and swim my way out of grips.
8/26/13 12:32 PM
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liquidrob
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As a mostly no gi guy who went back to the gi recently I would say bigger guys are easier to handle in the gi when they don't know anything, but when guys are bigger, have good grips and know what theyre doing big guys are tougher to deal with in the gi than no gi
8/26/13 12:37 PM
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Tomato Can
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I can agree with that. Obviously anyone who's just clueless about the grip game is going to be easier to deal with in the gi. But in terms of experienced guys, the gi is a big man's best friend.
8/26/13 7:18 PM
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pursuitofhappiness
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Subzero90 - 
Sgt. Slaphead - No-gi is a part of fundamental jiujitsu skill, to not do it is a disservice to the student. To only do no-gi is a disservice to the art/ No-gi only, is not BJJ....it can be a of jiujitsu, but IMHO it is not BJJ. Same as there is no such thing a no-gi judo. JMHO.

For several years after I made blue belt (w/gi) I didn't care, I was only really interested in learning fighting skill using jiujitsu as a foundation on which I could add other skills/techniques. Then I figured out that the gi offered the same benefits and much broader useful skill, and made training interesting and enjoyable again.

Honestly the gi offers no benefit to a persons nogi game, other than lacklustre over hooks and under hooks.  If a person spent 100% of their time doing nogi they'll inevitably have a better nogi game than if they split time.  They are different sports.


Yet Marcelo Garcia is the worlds greatest no gi grappler and he trains in the gi 5 days a week?
9/4/13 4:01 PM
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acamp76144
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Pettis is a blue belt? Getting his purple post his win...

Case in point Phone Post 3.0
9/4/13 9:09 PM
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shen
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I believe you CAN become a very skilled submission grappler without ever wearing a gi. Absolutely.

But one reason to at least own a gi is because you then have more opportunities to train with the best grapplers in the world. I mean, if you refuse to ever wear a gi --like it's against your religion-- then you have made probably 70-80% of BJJ seminars "off limits" to you. Even if you don't like the gi, you could learn things in a gi seminar that can seriously change your whole game.

But if you insist on being a no gi purist, who waits for the 1 or 2 or whatever yearly no-gi seminars in your area, due to your choices, you're going to be exposed to a less good information.

I think that is one reason why people who do both tend to be better grapplers; they are open to receiving more quality information from more sources. You never know where you are going to learn something good.

9/4/13 9:34 PM
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Hunter V
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excellent point shen.
9/4/13 11:56 PM
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RockTheVote
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training in the gi trains my mind. no gi is athletic and smooth and fast paced. we flow. the gi adds grips, true, but a guy can ignore the grips if he has discipline. stick with your hooks if you love them. your opponents grips and the friction of your gis will slow your roll. you can see more stuff coming. your mind starts anticipating, and pretty soon youre thinking much quicker. i feel that training gi helps your no gi game.

9/4/13 11:56 PM
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RockTheVote
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Edited: 09/04/13 11:57 PM
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double post


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