UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> Vera: If TRT ok for 1, should be okay for all


8/28/13 10:37 PM
Ignore | Vote Down | Vote Up
Underground Blog
1157 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/3/08
Posts: 12777
MixedMartialArts.com
 

Brandon Vera fights Ben Rothwell at UFC 164 on Saturday, and was asked to comment on 'Big' Ben's use of Testosterone Replacement Therapy.

Vera is not a fan of Therapeutic Use Exemption, as he believes many fighters' testosterone levels falls below the normal 300 nanograms per deciliter during a grueling camp.

"I think the whole thing with TRT, I understand it, but if it's good for one, it should be good for all," said Vera. "I don’t know how that scaling goes or what the testosterone level is and stuff. I know my testosterone level during one camp was at 250, but I think you eat up all your testosterone during camp if you're training two or three times a day."

Read entire article...
 


8/29/13 1:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lynchman
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/6/03
Posts: 830
What a stupid statement. Fighters on TRT have to stay within the acceptable limits.

If Vera wants to take it, go ahead. Bu if you test above the acceptable levels, you ass is toast.
8/29/13 2:07 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 79183
"Except that the "acceptable limit" is more then 6x the legal limit set for every one else"

What the hell are you talking about?

"Either TRT is banned across the board OR every one should be able to use it on an even playing field"

What is stopping Vera or anyone else from applying for a TUE?
8/29/13 2:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RonysTorresIceBag
10 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/20/13
Posts: 79
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Except that the "acceptable limit" is more then 6x the legal limit set for every one else"

What the hell are you talking about?

"Either TRT is banned across the board OR every one should be able to use it on an even playing field"

What is stopping Vera or anyone else from applying for a TUE?

To be approved for a TUE, you must show a deficiency in testosterone. However, once you're approved for TRT, you are allowed to test at a testosterone level up to 6:1. The argument he's making is someone who is normal - 1:1:, can't use TRT; but someone approved for TUE can use it and test at 5:1, yet not be penalized and fight the 1:1 person.
8/29/13 8:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zekolas
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/20/09
Posts: 2004
RonysTorresIceBag -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Except that the "acceptable limit" is more then 6x the legal limit set for every one else"

What the hell are you talking about?

"Either TRT is banned across the board OR every one should be able to use it on an even playing field"

What is stopping Vera or anyone else from applying for a TUE?

To be approved for a TUE, you must show a deficiency in testosterone. However, once you're approved for TRT, you are allowed to test at a testosterone level up to 6:1. The argument he's making is someone who is normal - 1:1:, can't use TRT; but someone approved for TUE can use it and test at 5:1, yet not be penalized and fight the 1:1 person.
The 6:1 is the TE ratio. I am no expert on the subject but a TE ratio does not tell if your testosterone is elevated but just that there is the presence of synthetic test. When you go on trt I am not sure if they care what your TE ratio is. They just measure total testosterone. Meaning if your body is producing very little test you could have a TE ratio of 16:1 but still have lower than normal test. Phone Post
8/29/13 8:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Standup29
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/7/11
Posts: 2521
Boxingfreak -
Lynchman - What a stupid statement. Fighters on TRT have to stay within the acceptable limits.

If Vera wants to take it, go ahead. Bu if you test above the acceptable levels, you ass is toast.

Except that the "acceptable limit" is more then 6x the legal limit set for every one else

So a fighter on TRT can test more then 6x the limit of every one else

TRT is complete bullshit...and every one knows it.....the testing is a joke....the fact its abused is a joke....and the fact you can basically roid up in camp then taper off is a joke....


Vera is spot on


Either TRT is banned across the board OR every one should be able to use it on an even playing field

You see, at least there was an even playing field in PRIDE(every one could use)

There is NO even playing field in the UFC and thats much worse

As long as zuffa MMA stays the way it is with TRT, zuffa MMA will be illegitimate

6x the limit of what? Certainly not Testosterone. Phone Post
8/29/13 8:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
frankiscool
92 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/00
Posts: 35551

Exactly, it's not 6x the amount of test.   We need someone to come on an explain this.  Tito kep rambling on about someone's level being 6 times the norm, then they'd show a pic of Forrest, but no numbers or ratio, etc were ever given about Forrest.  The 6:1 had just come out and then Tito found out that Forrest had a TRT exemption so he assumed that Forrest's levels were that.  Again, tito, foot, mouth.

8/29/13 8:49 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Standup29
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/7/11
Posts: 2522
RonysTorresIceBag -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Except that the "acceptable limit" is more then 6x the legal limit set for every one else"

What the hell are you talking about?

"Either TRT is banned across the board OR every one should be able to use it on an even playing field"

What is stopping Vera or anyone else from applying for a TUE?

To be approved for a TUE, you must show a deficiency in testosterone. However, once you're approved for TRT, you are allowed to test at a testosterone level up to 6:1. The argument he's making is someone who is normal - 1:1:, can't use TRT; but someone approved for TUE can use it and test at 5:1, yet not be penalized and fight the 1:1 person.
Uhhh a T:E ratio of 6:1 is not the same as having 6 times the amount of testosterone. Does anyone even do research before posting? Phone Post
8/29/13 9:02 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
frankiscool
92 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/00
Posts: 35553
Pitbull3744 - 

THANK YOU STANDUP! Im not sure everyone understands the ratios and what they mean or even what TRT really is and what its supposed to do AND what it doesnt do and how you can tell who is CYCLING and not just on TRT.  I am on TRT so i know first hand what it does and doesnt do.  


Voted up

8/29/13 9:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RonysTorresIceBag
10 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/20/13
Posts: 85
Standup29 - 
RonysTorresIceBag -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Except that the "acceptable limit" is more then 6x the legal limit set for every one else"

What the hell are you talking about?

"Either TRT is banned across the board OR every one should be able to use it on an even playing field"

What is stopping Vera or anyone else from applying for a TUE?

To be approved for a TUE, you must show a deficiency in testosterone. However, once you're approved for TRT, you are allowed to test at a testosterone level up to 6:1. The argument he's making is someone who is normal - 1:1:, can't use TRT; but someone approved for TUE can use it and test at 5:1, yet not be penalized and fight the 1:1 person.
Uhhh a T:E ratio of 6:1 is not the same as having 6 times the amount of testosterone. Does anyone even do research before posting? Phone Post

i clarified the argument he was making, not my opinion.
8/29/13 9:58 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 1848
Lynchman - What a stupid statement. Fighters on TRT have to stay within the acceptable limits.

If Vera wants to take it, go ahead. Bu if you test above the acceptable levels, you ass is toast.

no, it's an excellent point that a lot of people have been making for a while...

Vera mentions his low levels of "T" going in to a fight, which is well documented that multiple hard workouts depletes this hormone. however, the range that Rothwell gets to stay in is substantially larger than that... Ben can have up to 1100 ng/ml of total test, regardless of what his opponent has. so if Vera is at 250, Ben can literally have over 4 times the amount of testosterone than he does....


the way the UFC is allowing TUE's for TRT, i simply don't see there being an advantage for any athlete not to do it...
8/29/13 10:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 2128
Proven fact on how to get TRT from doctor for anyone.

Work out really hard the night before a blood test.

then that night drink 4 beers.

The next morning drink one beer.

You test levels will be super low and you can get trt.
8/29/13 10:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zekolas
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08/29/13 10:41 AM
Member Since: 9/20/09
Posts: 2005
frankiscool - 

Exactly, it's not 6x the amount of test.   We need someone to come on an explain this.  Tito kep rambling on about someone's level being 6 times the norm, then they'd show a pic of Forrest, but no numbers or ratio, etc were ever given about Forrest.  The 6:1 had just come out and then Tito found out that Forrest had a TRT exemption so he assumed that Forrest's levels were that.  Again, tito, foot, mouth.


Here is a simple explanation what is probably only half right but the basics are true

When you body produces Testosterone it also produces Epitestosterone at the same rate so normally your TE ration is 1:1 or maybe 1.5:1 once you reach adult hood.

However when you take steroids or synthetic testosterone it rases your Testosterone but your Epitestosterone stays the same thus your TE ration goes up to 4:1 or 16:1.

So your TE ratio does not mean you have elevated test only that you are taking sythetic test.

So when they measure your testorone they measure it by ng/dl (nanograms per decilitre) and the normal range is approx 350-1000 depending on age.

Meaning a healthy 20 year old man may have 800 and a TE ratio of 1:1 meaning he is taking no steroid.

However someone may be on TRT and come in at 375 (low end of normal) but have a TE ratio of 10:1 as his body is not producing much natural test.

So TE ratio does not say anything if your test is above "Normal" levels just if there is sythetic test in your system.

My whole problem with TRT is this. If your just working out once a day, eating healthy with rest days lets say your test is 600.

If you go through a grueling training camp working out 2-3x per day for weeks on end your test will fall to a low range. This is natural it does not mean your naturally low on test. However if you get a TRT exemption you can keep your test levels at a 800 range what is still "Normal" even while training 2-3x per day what is not normal.

So I agree, all fighters should be granted a TRT exemption if they can show their test levels go low during a training camp; what  happens to everyone.

8/29/13 10:47 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zekolas
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/20/09
Posts: 2006
BshMstr - 
Lynchman - What a stupid statement. Fighters on TRT have to stay within the acceptable limits.

If Vera wants to take it, go ahead. Bu if you test above the acceptable levels, you ass is toast.

no, it's an excellent point that a lot of people have been making for a while...

Vera mentions his low levels of "T" going in to a fight, which is well documented that multiple hard workouts depletes this hormone. however, the range that Rothwell gets to stay in is substantially larger than that... Ben can have up to 1100 ng/ml of total test, regardless of what his opponent has. so if Vera is at 250, Ben can literally have over 4 times the amount of testosterone than he does....


the way the UFC is allowing TUE's for TRT, i simply don't see there being an advantage for any athlete not to do it...

BshMstr is right the issue is this. Lets say Brandon Vera's normal test is 800 when he is not in training camp and just training 4x a week with rest days.

 

However once he is a 2 weeks into his training camp, training 3X a day it will fall to 250, this will happen to all athleates.

 

However if you get a TRT exemption through your training camp you can keep your test levels at 800 what is a "normal" level but not "normal" for someone training 2-3X per day.

 

 

8/29/13 4:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
bhealthy
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/14/06
Posts: 17631
roid induced paranoia prevents adequate recovery in the steroid era this was forseen by wise trainers at least 40 years ago
8/29/13 4:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
bhealthy
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/14/06
Posts: 17632
roid induced paranoia prevents adequate recovery in the steroid era this was forseen by wise trainers at least 40 years ago
8/29/13 4:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
bhealthy
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/14/06
Posts: 17633
roid induced paranoia prevents adequate recovery in the steroid era this was forseen by wise trainers at least 40 years ago
8/29/13 4:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
InTheWeedz
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/11/11
Posts: 1701

Brandon Vera should shutup, and just be happy we haven't fired him yet...

for someone that talks as big a game as he did... he's done acsolutely nothing... be happy to be employed Vera... because if you lose this saturday to Rothwell... I'm passing a post-it note to my boss Dana...

8/29/13 5:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zekolas
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/20/09
Posts: 2011
CRMartin11 - Vera is using fallacious logic.

The ONLY reason TRT use is legal is because there are fighters who have low testosterone. They are legally allowed to use TRT to get their testosterone levels to what athletic commission's deem healthy and natural.

Brandon Vera is trying to oversimplify the situation.


Read my post, if you are in a hard camp training 2-3x per day no way your testosterone will be in a "Natural Range" of 800-1000. The hard exercise will drop it to 200.

But if you go on TRT you can keep it 800-1000 through your entire camp, train harder, heal faster and get an unfair advantage.
8/29/13 6:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
shaqitup
52 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/20/11
Posts: 6777
Lynchman - What a stupid statement. Fighters on TRT have to stay within the acceptable limits.

If Vera wants to take it, go ahead. Bu if you test above the acceptable levels, you ass is toast.

The acceptable limits aren't the average though, they're a broad range above the average.

Isn't the average 1:1, but anything within 6:1 is acceptable.

That's a litlte bit of an advantage imo.


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.