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BJJGround Forum >> Positive and Negative Energy when Rolling


9/3/13 4:25 AM
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shen
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Hywel Teague - Re Fillty's long post about our projection of presumed patterns

I read a few years ago that elite chess players do not necessarily think as far ahead as many moves as we've been told. The same goes for elite grapplers, who we were always told are three steps ahead of you or more.

The difference is that from a position an advanced player recognises the patterns before him and therefore eliminates the incorrect moves and actually sees less options. Whereas a lesser player doesn't have the level of experience (ability to recognise patterns) to work out if they are viable options or not and may or may not use the appropriate response. The better player simply doesn't consider those options, but the skill of recognising those patterns is so well developed it becomes subconscious.

On the flip side of subconscious patterns, ones we do without thinking but that can get us in trouble: Sam from InnerBJJ wrote an excellent blog breaking down Shogun's loss to Sonnen that looks at his patterns of grappling behaviour and how certain responses were basically hard wired into him. The half guard game he played and the guillotine on a platter were all habits Shogun probably wasn't even aware he had. Fascinating stuff.

It's a little off topic re energy but still pretty interesting nonetheless

http://www.innerbjj.com/2013/08/chael-sonnen-vs-mauricio-shogun-rua.html?m=1 Phone Post 3.0

Kinda glad you mentioned the "3 moves ahead" thing... it's never made sense to me. How can someone be 3 moves ahead of their opponent if each time the opponent moves, the variables change? You can't think too far ahead because you don't know what you are going to be working with. It's like saying a poker player is 3 draws ahead. He can't be, he has to see what cards he gets first.

9/3/13 10:28 AM
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deepu
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shen - 
Hywel Teague - Re Fillty's long post about our projection of presumed patterns

I read a few years ago that elite chess players do not necessarily think as far ahead as many moves as we've been told. The same goes for elite grapplers, who we were always told are three steps ahead of you or more.

The difference is that from a position an advanced player recognises the patterns before him and therefore eliminates the incorrect moves and actually sees less options. Whereas a lesser player doesn't have the level of experience (ability to recognise patterns) to work out if they are viable options or not and may or may not use the appropriate response. The better player simply doesn't consider those options, but the skill of recognising those patterns is so well developed it becomes subconscious.

On the flip side of subconscious patterns, ones we do without thinking but that can get us in trouble: Sam from InnerBJJ wrote an excellent blog breaking down Shogun's loss to Sonnen that looks at his patterns of grappling behaviour and how certain responses were basically hard wired into him. The half guard game he played and the guillotine on a platter were all habits Shogun probably wasn't even aware he had. Fascinating stuff.

It's a little off topic re energy but still pretty interesting nonetheless

http://www.innerbjj.com/2013/08/chael-sonnen-vs-mauricio-shogun-rua.html?m=1 Phone Post 3.0

Kinda glad you mentioned the "3 moves ahead" thing... it's never made sense to me. How can someone be 3 moves ahead of their opponent if each time the opponent moves, the variables change? You can't think too far ahead because you don't know what you are going to be working with. It's like saying a poker player is 3 draws ahead. He can't be, he has to see what cards he gets first.


Off topic but you can be "3 moves ahead". 3 moves ahead in chess for example means that you are considering *all* options in a tree rooted at the current state of the board, 3 levels deep where each level is a move. So whatever move your opponent makes, you are aware of the consequences of that move prior to that person making the move. If interested, check out chess trees, it's how chess programs work.
9/4/13 11:19 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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BJJ Black Belt, Self-Defense Author, Ballroom Dancer

Regarding "thinking ahead":  check an article  called "The Expert Mind" by Philip Ross (Scientific American).  

That article has influenced my training far more than any other.  It's wonderful.  

9/4/13 11:45 PM
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RockTheVote
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fantastic thread. love the concepts. completely agree that you can feel your parnters vibe, and the better you know the person the more likely you are to know if theyre having a bad day, good day, etc. i instruct classes, so the one argument i have is that when i get ahold of someone who vibes rough, i almost feel obligated to keep rolling with him until hes either exhausted or cools off. like i have to protect my students. ill even play defense and let the guy go nuts for awhile, if thats what i feel like he needs. anyway. love the chat, tho. do you guys who travel think the different schools all have different vibes? if you walked in and the instructor was... i dont know. putting gis away in the back room - like no one was out to greet you - that youd know much about the school from the ambiance?

9/5/13 4:24 PM
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krept
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What about Saulo mentioning no-mind like Rickson's neutral point? In other words, some say to think three moves ahead while others espouse not thinking at all and just reacting.

Imagine conditioning yourself so you are REACTING three moves ahead, that is some serious stuff right there. I'm going to try shrimping from the clinch and will report back.
9/5/13 6:01 PM
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Zero1
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But its not just about the mind. You need a neutral body and that has a lot to do with the right posture and mechanic.

You can´t react in a connected way if your body isn´t connected......
9/6/13 9:31 AM
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Seul
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Ttt, good thread. Phone Post
9/6/13 3:22 PM
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Furacao
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Really good thread! I just happened upon the rolled up episode with Erik Paulson and was completely intrigued with his explanation of this same topic.

I have had those feelings many times during training & competition but had never given it any thought until watching that episode. This thread has some REALLY great points to ponder.

Going to really try and get in touch with this sensation when training.

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