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UnderGround Forums >> Johny:"GSP threw me under the bus on 'shady' VADA


9/11/13 3:50 PM
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krept
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The amount of time the guys spend on a 1hr call discussing this should easily eclipse the cost of testing at both VADA and WADA??

It was probably mentioned earlier, but why not just test with two different labs? i.e. both athletes submit samples to two different places, see if there is a discrepancy between the two even down to ug/L in the duplicates or whatever, do a QAPP if needed etc.
9/11/13 4:24 PM
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MattyECB
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The full emails have been released on BE and I suggest reading them to anyone curious.

The lawyer email I posted was the last email in a chain and is what pissed of Kizer.

Basically beforehand, they're having negotiations and asking Kizer a bunch of questions about the WADA-accredited NSAC lab Vs. WADA-accredited VADA lab and Kizer gets annoyed at the questions.

Kizer tells them they should be happy he's doing them a favor and letting them use the NSAC labs because it's a privilege and makes the fight legitimate so GSP's lawyer responds by saying in that case, we'll do both VADA and NSAC, email us the documents and I'll be away for 10 days. When I return we'll do them (This is the email I posted earlier.


This is the period of time Kizer referred to when he said,

""And they continued to ask questions and then finally they got to the point where they were unavailable and can't be reached in any manner for at least 10 days. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that's a 'no.'"

I still think Kizer's being a cunt and GSP's lawyer is being a lawyer, but I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion. It's a long read, but it's very interesting and a good look into the prep-work.

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/9/11/4719572/georges-st-pierre-johny-hendricks-drug-testing-gsp-ufc
9/11/13 4:28 PM
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MattyECB
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Here's the email chain (Too big for one post, and I'll put the sauce at the end):



De : Keith Kizer

Envoyé : 14 août 2013 13:25

À : 'Rodolphe Beaulieu'

Cc : Firas; Michael Mersch; Ted

Objet : RE:

Thank you for your email.

Please see the answers below.

Keith Kizer

Executive Director

Nevada Athletic Commission

From: Rodolphe Beaulieu

Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 5:39 AM

To: Keith Kizer

Cc: Firas; Michael Mersch

Subject:

Hello Mr Kizer,

Couple of questions.

I would like to know the exact list of substances that will be tested by the Salt Lake City lab.? See WADA's Prohibited List - http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-Prohibited-list/2013/WADA-Prohibited-List-2013-EN.pdf

What will be the detection limits for each test? All methods used for testing are consistent with current WADA technical documents.

Who will be the MRO (medical review officer)? Dr. Timothy Trainor is the Commission’s Consulting Research Physician.

Will IRMS analysis will be included for the 19-norandrosterone, la testosterone, la DHEA etc)? Such analysis can and may be done, at the discretion of the Commission

Thanks

Rodolphe

Two days later was the next set of questions (and, again, answers in bold):

From: Rodolphe

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 9:08 AM

To: 'Keith Kizer'

Cc: 'Firas'; Michael Mersch; Ted

Subject: RE:

Hello,

After discussing with Georges and his medical advisors, we do have a few more questions (see below).

I also want to clarify one point, VADA is NOT sponsoring the tests as Firas previously stated on the call. It was a misunderstanding. It would cost 7,500$ per fighter under VADA and VADA will absorb 5,000$ for a total cost of $20k which is in line with your estimation of the costs with the SMRTL lab.

1- Can you provide us the Nevada Athletic Commission policies and collection procedures (including results management). Please provide a copy of your policy. All the Commission’s regulations can be found athttp://leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html.

2- I know you indicated that the Nevada Athletic Commission will use the Salt Lake City lab. Can you confirm who will be the collection company that you intend to use? No

3- Does the Nevada Athletic Commission has an insurance for this anti-doping program? Please provide a copy. No, the Commission is a government agency.

4- How long has the Nevada Athletic Commission been conducting these un-announced program with a WADA accredited lab using Olympic level testing? The Commission has been working directly with the SMRT lab starting this summer. Do you/will you also test for HGH and EPO? I already informed you that the testing will be for substances on WADA’s Prohibited List- http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-Prohibited-list/2013/WADA-Prohibited-List-2013-EN.pdf.

5- How many fighters have been tested with this program by the Nevada Athletic Commission? The Commission has performed OOC testing on about 50 athletes.

Thank You

Rodolphe Beaulieu, CFA

Partner - LB3i Sports
9/11/13 4:29 PM
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MattyECB
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Slightly over an hour later, Mersch responded to the ongoing conversation:

From: Michael Mersch

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:18 AM

To: Rodolphe

Cc: 'Firas'; Ted; Keith Kizer

Subject: RE:

Rodolphe,

I just tried to call you but did not get an answer. I thought that the options available to Georges were made clear during our last call but apparently not.

Please understand that the Nevada Athletic Commission is doing Georges a favor by offering to be involved in this process. The benefit, to Georges, of having them involved is that it brings legitimacy to any pre-fight testing procedures and any results that may come out of said pre-fight testing. I think Mr. Kizer made it clear that, if Georges want them to be involved, he had a very strict protocol that he expected to be followed and, if Georges elected not to follow said protocol, that was his choice but that the NSAC would not be involved other than to the extent they would traditionally be involved in the drug testing of athletes under Nevada State law.

Issues such as collection procedures have already been discussed. Who their medical officer is and that the Salt Lake Lab will dictate collection times in concert with the Nevada Commission has also been explained to you.

Again, the choices for Georges are very simply:

1) Elect to work with the NSAC and pay for additional drug testing pursuant to the very clear directives of Executive Director Kizer as was discussed at length on the call we had with Ted Ahrens, Mr. Kizer and Commissioner Aguilar;

2) Elect not to request NSAC pre-fight involvement

As we discussed on the call, Georges stated goal here seems to be to establish, through medical testing, that Georges is a "clean" fighter. You do not need to work with either the NSAC or VADA to establish that in my opinoin [sic]. As you may be aware, there is an accredited WADA level lab in Montreal that you can work with or you can simply have medical testing performed by any board-certified endocrinologist of your choosing to establish this.

Similarly, if Georges elects to work with VADA, that is his choice but, as described by Mr. Kizer, VADA has no role or impact on the process of licensing and testing fighters within the State of Nevada (nor in any other jurisdiction for that matter). Additionally, Mr. Hendricks has made it clear that while he is happy to submit to any testing involving the Nevada Commission, he is uncomfortable working with VADA for the reasons noted on our call and those noted above in this email.

So again, the decision is up to George. Please let me know what he elects to do.

Thanks.

Michael Mersch

When contacted for clarification on the intent of Mr. Mersch's email, a UFC representative simply added, "The email is fairly self-explanatory. We attempted to broker joint drug testing through the NSAC and St-Pierre and his camp elected to utilize VADA."

That appeared to be all Kizer needed as he moved to claim that GSP was effectively declining hours later:

Le 2013-08-16 à 14:32, Keith Kizer a écrit :

Mr. Mersch and Mr. Beauliue:

Thank you both for your email. Special thanks to Rudolphe for being professional enough to divulge Mr. Firas’s misrepresentation.

I am happy to answer any questions (and have – see my answers to yours latest questions below). However, the Commission does not allow any licensee to dictate or craft the testing. Not only is this inappropriate, it is not something the Commission would even consider.

I will take the latest email as a refusal by Mr. St. Pierre to request enhanced steroid and drug testing by the Commission, which is his choice. Of course Mr. St. Pierre and Mr. Hendricks must comply with any and all testing by the Commission.

Keith Kizer

Executive Director

Nevada Athletic Commission

Just over 24 hours later, Beaulieu responded, saying that St-Pierre was in for the NSAC testing and would also do additional VADA testing himself:

From: Rodolphe Beaulieu

Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 6:52 PM

To: Keith Kizer

Cc: Michael Mersch; Firas; Ted

Subject: Re: RE:

Hello all,

We spoke with Georges today and he took his decision so for your information, Georges has decided that if Johny Hendricks does not want to do VADA and prefers your proposed enhanced steroid and drug testing by the Nevada Athletic Commission, Georges will also do it, in addition to VADA.

I will be out of the office without access to email or voicemail until Aug. 27th but in the meantime, please provide us with all documentation, a detailed invoice and payment instructions necessary to proceed with such enhanced steroid and drug testing by the Commission.

Best regards

Rodolphe

And of course, all credit goes to SBNation and you guys should still go to the site to see the actual article and get some perspective if you want to form your own opinion.

Just thought it should be here for posterity's sake.

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/9/11/4719572/georges-st-pierre-johny-hendricks-drug-testing-gsp-ufc
9/11/13 4:45 PM
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SOO72
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Kizer, you're a moron. I know you post here so read that very carefully.

They wanted to know if your testing is up to snuff to adequately screen Mr. Hendricks. They saw how you were turning things in your warped head, and they said OK we will do both even if Hendricks wants to avoid VADA.

The only assholes here are Hendricks and Keiser. Hendricks should be forced to comply with whatever testing GSP does at this point. He's the shady one with something to hide and Keizer is just being a moron as usual.
9/11/13 4:59 PM
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RileyPust
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Also for the record, VADA covered the costs of both BJ Penn and Rory when they were in the program. 100%.

And if anyone finds the lawyer's questions about which drugs they test for suspiscious, allow me to steal a quote from Dr. Goodman:

 

Obviously, it’s a little bit different than the testing that’s now done in athletic commissions in that we include testing for human growth hormone (HGH), for erythropoietin (Epo).  We also do more extensive anabolic steroid testing that includes carbon isotope ratio testing.  So all of those things are more costly than you would have with an athletic commission typically.  But the main point, it wasn’t so much that we were trying to set up VADA as a testing program as much as it was supposed to be an educational program.  And so you’re looking into it, other media entities are looking into it, the fighters are looking into it.  It just opens up the discussion.  That was the whole point.  The bottom line was not to have fighters lining up around the block asking to be tested, that certainly wasn’t the point.  It was the educational aspect.

 

Note that she specifically says HGH and EPO, which Georges' lawyer asked about.

9/11/13 5:24 PM
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Vulva Fabulous
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HexRei -
Malvert the Janitor - It's okay Johnny..you're old friend says so!

Phone Post 3.0

proof that BJ actually does have to cut off a leg to make weight!
Boooooooooooo!

You lifted my joke from a couple of pages ago.


Which in turn has more than likely been said thousands of times before me so I should STFU about lifting jokes :) Phone Post
9/11/13 5:37 PM
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BobbyDigital420
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this is what the new trash talking is. 

instead of calling each other out directly, they do it this way.

it's the new era of trash talk!

 

it hurts my head.

 

 

just fight already!

(let them bang bro)

 

:)

 

9/11/13 6:43 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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Hendricks still hasn't commented on doing both tests?
9/11/13 6:53 PM
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RileyPust
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Mertvaya Ruka - Hendricks still hasn't commented on doing both tests?

He's gonna skate by without doing anything extra lol.

9/11/13 7:46 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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RileyPust - 
Mertvaya Ruka - Hendricks still hasn't commented on doing both tests?

He's gonna skate by without doing anything extra lol.


Seems like it, GSP's already giving random samples.

His MMA Hour interview solved this for him, I guess.
9/11/13 8:44 PM
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andyman011
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Mertvaya Ruka -
RileyPust - 
Mertvaya Ruka - Hendricks still hasn't commented on doing both tests?

He's gonna skate by without doing anything extra lol.


Seems like it, GSP's already giving random samples.

His MMA Hour interview solved this for him, I guess.
Hey guys when and what are you testing for. Let me know. Phone Post
9/11/13 8:54 PM
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EvilMaster
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Georges is not impressed by Hendricks performance.
Georges was trying to do something good for mixed martial arts, and that hillbilly went and turned it all negative.

Now Georges is going to throw him under his helbows as punishment.

Oh yes...It's true.
9/11/13 9:21 PM
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Jaybrone
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SupesUp -  Imagine rory had responded that way to bj? He would have been crucified. Phone Post

Oh ABSOLUTELY they would have.

9/11/13 10:09 PM
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MattyECB
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Btw, now that we have the full email chain, we know GSP NEVER FUCKING ASKED FOR PRE-DETERMINED TIMES.

He only asked informatino about the testing, then about the paperwork...

Kizer threw a shitfit, so GSP agreed to do both...

Then Kizer told him to fuck off. It didn't copy properly, but you guy cans just use the link in my last post or go to BE to see the full email chain. Kizer and Hendricks both fucking exaggerated the shit out of this, and I'm in awe a government worker like Kizer can be such an incompetent, bias piece of shit. And I hope you're lurking here you clown dick
9/11/13 10:15 PM
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UGCTT Molsonmuscle360
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Weird how you see Kizer post in a lot of PED related threads around here, but he stayed the fuck out of this one...Hmmm, seems odd to me. Probably because him and Hendricks both look like morons in all of this.
9/12/13 7:40 AM
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gotmysitchpackedbyweidman
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Kizer and Hendricks are so shady that they never need hats or sunglasses when outside.

9/12/13 8:50 AM
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MyMMAMind
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I really think The bigger picture is being missed here. If you made multiple millions per year based on your clean persona then i too would have like 4000 questions on their testing methods. GSP has SOOO much more to lose if one of the tests come back wrong (which happens). Im not saying he is clean or not, i am just saying that if your the Champ and your paying 20k for drug testing and making millions per fight, you want to make sure you know what to expect. I wouldn't put my livelihood on the line without getting every answer necessary. Plus the fight is taking place in Vegas, VaDa makes sense. But then again, this is just MMYMMAMIND. Phone Post 3.0
9/12/13 9:24 AM
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grimer
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One question: If you aren't taking anything then why would you be opposed to VADA testing?
9/12/13 12:27 PM
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RileyPust
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MattyECB - Btw, now that we have the full email chain, we know GSP NEVER FUCKING ASKED FOR PRE-DETERMINED TIMES.

He only asked informatino about the testing, then about the paperwork...

Kizer threw a shitfit, so GSP agreed to do both...

Then Kizer told him to fuck off. It didn't copy properly, but you guy cans just use the link in my last post or go to BE to see the full email chain. Kizer and Hendricks both fucking exaggerated the shit out of this, and I'm in awe a government worker like Kizer can be such an incompetent, bias piece of shit. And I hope you're lurking here you clown dick

Exactly. The only thing they asked about was if this program tested for specific drugs (HGH, EPO). Keith Kizer basically said "it's the same as always", the problem being that the commissions don't generally test for those things so Georges wanted to know if this 'enhanced' program rectified that.

9/12/13 12:29 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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UGCTT Molsonmuscle360 - Weird how you see Kizer post in a lot of PED related threads around here, but he stayed the fuck out of this one...Hmmm, seems odd to me. Probably because him and Hendricks both look like morons in all of this.

Kizer is so much of a useless boxing puppet I can see his strings. The man has no dick or balls, he is a peon directing the traffic of corruption he should honestly be in jail.

9/12/13 1:15 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Herman Munster - 

 

Keith Kizer is a man who says that testosterone usage for muscular fighters should not be viewed as a scarlet letter. The reality is that there isn’t a bigger drug enabler in combat sports today than Keith Kizer, the man who grants hall passes to fighters so that they can use testosterone, the base chemical of anabolic steroids. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out just how dangerous testosterone usage can be in combat sports and what the main reasons for usage are. The majority of fighters who are begging for testosterone hall passes are doing so because of previous or current steroid usage or because of brain damage from concussions.
 
What makes Kizer’s public stance about testosterone usage so offensive is how much he regards testosterone usage as an entitlement to fighters in combat sports. He actually uses the word entitled or entitlement when discussing fighters using testosterone. It’s really a remarkable admission of shamelessness on the part of a regulator who is one accident, one death away in a Nevada-regulated fight from getting his pants sued off for millions of dollars due to issues of strict liability.
 
Kizer's  stance regarding drug testing is pretty simple. He believes only in the drug testing Nevada does as the #1 barometer for drug testing and that any external drug testing from agencies like USADA or VADA (Voluntary Anti-Doping Agency) is supplemental window dressing. He also has a real vendetta against Dr. Margaret Goodman, who formerly worked for the Nevada State Athletic Commission. Every time Kizer tries to make some wise crack in an interview against VADA or Dr. Goodman, he shows his ass and beclowns himself to an embarrassing degree. Like, when he admits that VADA testing catches fighters cheating while Nevada testing doesn’t because they don’t use Carbon Isotope Ratio testing unless a fighter fails a standard urine test in the first place.
 
http://www.fightopinion.com/2012/09/02/nsac-testosterone/
 
More good reading.  

Yep, Keith is a walking turd

9/12/13 2:18 PM
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Devlin
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MyMMAMind - I really think The bigger picture is being missed here. If you made multiple millions per year based on your clean persona then i too would have like 4000 questions on their testing methods. GSP has SOOO much more to lose if one of the tests come back wrong (which happens). Im not saying he is clean or not, i am just saying that if your the Champ and your paying 20k for drug testing and making millions per fight, you want to make sure you know what to expect. I wouldn't put my livelihood on the line without getting every answer necessary. Plus the fight is taking place in Vegas, VaDa makes sense. But then again, this is just MMYMMAMIND. Phone Post 3.0
This. Kizer looks like a tool here too, and a lot of posters look pretty dumb too. Phone Post
9/12/13 10:27 PM
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pollice_verso
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Speaking of all these articles as part of a kind of media strategy/psychological warfare... if Johny doesn't act soon, I think what people are going to be thinking about come fight night is that Georges did random WADA-accredited testing and Johny did vanilla NSAC testing, even though Georges offered to pay and to do NSAC's enhanced program in addition to VADA.

Well, the people who care about that stuff, anyway.

I'm pretty surprised, though. I understand Kizer's being political in the most petty ways, there's something Anthony Weiner-ish about him, really (without the likeability), and he clearly strongly dislikes VADA, but I don't understand why Johny bought into the idea that somehow VADA is going to cheat for Georges or whatever.

Slipping the UCLA WADA lab a clean sample and secretly notifying Georges of testing dates? It's a bit far-fetched. Let's face it, Georges isn't Professor Moriarty. Georges' idea of cunning is pulling one over on Kos during team picks and giggling about it afterward.

Maybe Hendricks doesn't really believe it, and instead he simply doesn't want to do WADA testing for some reason.
9/12/13 11:10 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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another day passes, still no word from hendricks.

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