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BJJGround Forum >> Evolution and the BJJ Self-Defense Curriculum


9/12/13 8:06 PM
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shen
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I believe ALL parts of BJJ can evolve: sport, vale tudo/MMA and, yes, self-defense. But it's really that last one which seems most in danger of becoming something of an antiquated museum piece.

As some here know, the last 25 years has seen a revolution in self-defense training. Things like: incorporating techniques based off our flinch response, employing adrenal stress based scenario training, understanding what makes certain techniques more likely to fail under stress, recognizing the limits of fine and complex motor skills under stress, etc., These insights have had a huge impact on certain segments of the self-defense world... but you wouldn't know it from watching a typical BJJ teacher teach "self-defense". The way in which BJJ –like most martial arts- approaches "self-defense" is still in the dark ages, in some ways. Not that BJJ Self-Defense can't work --of course it can-- but like any survival skill, it should have a mechanism to evolve and improve. Unfortunately, in the case of so many once vital martial arts that have turned into pseudo-LARPing, the "thing" usually stopping the evolution and continued development of an art is usually an over veneration of tradition.

From a modern self-defense standpoint, there are some recognizable "errors" in the BJJ self-defense curriculum, such as:

-Lack of commonality of technique (i.e. each different attack teaches a different response).

-Techniques not reinforced by day to day training. (Example: teaching to do a Kotegaeshi style wrist lock when someone grabs your lapel on the street, instead of a response to a lapel grab that is used and reinforced in BJJ rolling)

-SOME techniques not gross motor and require complex motor skills. (i.e. moves which are ill-suited to a high-levels of adrenal stress).

Then there are the other vital self-defense topics which almost no martial art (including BJJ) teach: awareness skills, the role of intuition, verbal de-escalation skills, physical evasion tactics, the effects of adrenalization, applied criminal psychology, emergency first-aid, legal aspects of self-defense.

One type of approach --that is usually followed in TMAs— would be to keep all BJJ self-defense in a hermetically sealed jar where it can't be touched or altered in any way. The idea being that the “founders” were all knowing, god-like individuals and to change anything they came up with would be sacrilege. If you have a background in TMAs, you probably know ALL about this one --because it's the norm! Lol. I think this approach is just fine for Iaido or some other “less practical” martial art, but for self-defense, it’s simply not a good idea.

Personally, I believe the self-defense aspect of BJJ would benefit greatly from evolving to include some of the discoveries about adrenaline and what happens, physiologically and psychologically, when we are acutely stressed. It would benefit from more experimentation, somewhat in the same manner in which sport & MMA oriented BJJ techniques have evolved to fit their arenas.

I believe this is important because if you are teaching "self-defense", you have a moral obligation to your students. When you say to a student, "OK if someone tries to murder you with a knife, THIS is how you handle it”, that is a huge responsibility you need to take VERY seriously. You need to think about what you are telling people; Is it valid? Does it work? Are there better ways to handle it? Etc. Just like you experiment with and get different points of input on your Open Guard, so too should you research and experiment with the self-defense techniques. Someone passing your student's guard is one thing, them getting shot or stabbed because they tried to do the fancy standing joint lock you taught them, is another thing entirely.

--Don't get me wrong, I have devoted much of my life (since 9 years old) to studying precisely these kinds of techniques in JJJ, Hapkido, Aikido, BJJ, etc. and many of the BJJ self-defense technique are very fine martial arts techniques. But, as applied self-defense you are possibly going to gamble your life on, some of them –especially the weapon techniques-- need to be examined more closely.

As teachers and students, we need to understand the very real ramifications of someone attempting to apply, say, a wristlock in a true life or death situation such as when someone puts a gun in their face. There are valid reasons why certain approaches are perhaps less likely to work than some other approaches out there. Those approaches which are deemed to be more effective should be incorporated INTO BJJ Self Defense, while less effective ones should be let go and NOT held onto out of a misguided sense of posterity. I recall 30 or so years ago, one of my JJJ professors telling me, "You know what Jiu Jitsu is...? It's finding a tool you like, scratching off the owner's name off and putting it in your own toolbox." I think that's not a bad mindset.

In order to remain a vital art and not just a "museum piece" --like much of Japanese JJ-- we need to keep BJJ Self-Defense evolving.


Thoughts…?
9/12/13 8:40 PM
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Tap247
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I could not agree more. I, like you, have studied many martial arts since I was very young. A little bit of just about everything, along with a lot of aikido, jjj and bjj. I have also taken a number of modern day self defense training courses, both unarmed and armed (mostly pistol and knife). All of these modern day self defense/survival courses emphasize much of what you have outlined as a major components (awareness, reflex response, stress, adrenaline, etc.) and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Things you never/rarely see or hear about in the bjj environment; not in any great depth anyways. At least this is what I have experienced and I've been in and out of bjj since '96.

IMO it's very important that folks who have never taken a self defense/survival class of some type, take one. If you are attacked on the street by a guy with a knife or gun and you try and rely on your bjj self defense techniques, which we all know you barely practice anyways, you are going to be in a world of hurt.

Also, as a note, I never leave the house without a knife in my pocket. Never.

Thanks for the topic Shen
9/12/13 9:29 PM
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Triple_B
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You make some good points. The responsibility thing is something I think about sometimes. It is why I generally dislike the teachings of krav maga and some of it's students that I have come in contact with. Lesson 1: This is how to defend yourself in a situation where someone is behind you with a gun to your head and has your neck with their other arm. There is a line between self defense and getting your students killed by instilling false confidence in them and you just drove a car over it.

How do you modernize a self defense system if you are not putting emphasis on weapons though? What is the answer? Do you incorporate stick fighting, encourage your students to hit the shooting range and conceal carry?

I would also argue that a hobbyist 100% sport jiu-jitsu competitor is much more well equipped when it comes to self defense. I know, I know.....50/50 and inverted aren't for "teh streetz", but I guarantee those guys have something in their repertoire that is functional for self defense and has been practiced against a resisting opponent for a few years. Not to mention that compared to your average meathead that will fall out after his second punch and 5 seconds of clinching, a guy that trains regularly is an olympic athlete. When you also take into consideration things like, experience with stress and the fact that average joe typically has no balance to speak of, jiu-jitsu guy is looking like he might be alright.

Which leads me to another point, encourage your self defense enthusiasts to get in shape! Yea, I know you use leverage and can overcome stronger opponents, but you know what the best martial art for self defense is? Track and Field. It can even be used against multiple opponents, try it sometime. Muscle fatigue and cardio are also taxed much more quickly in stressful situations and in a stressful situation you may also tend to muscle that elegant technique you learned in a controlled environment a little more than usual. This goes for alot of martial arts, I'm not signaling out jiu-jitsu, but it is alarming how out of shape many "self defense" focused instructors are.

I remember my first martial arts experience. My friend was training Okinawan karate at a college club. He invited me over. Instructor was about 5'5 200 lbs plus and out of shape, his club did not spar or anything like that either. After one lesson I decided a guy that would have trouble making it up the stairs probably can't teach me how to defend myself and that he probably learned this style of karate because when your fat standing their like a statue and attempting to counter attacks is probably your best course of action.
9/12/13 9:33 PM
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JRockwell
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Excellent post and topic. And for those who make the distinction, this applies just as much to "GJJ" as to "BJJ". I love the headlock escapes and many other self
defense movements? but having had exposure to some other methods, I wouldn't teach the gun/knife counters in the GJJ/BJJ curriculum to a loved one unless I was positive I wanted them to be both shot and stabbed. Phone Post 3.0
9/12/13 9:41 PM
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12
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you should teach and practice the knife defense,it works and has worked in the east side of wilmas
9/12/13 9:52 PM
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Sugarfoot
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I love me a serious Shen thread...makes me feel all warm inside. VTFU. Phone Post 3.0
9/12/13 10:02 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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It's an interesting topic, but from my point of view, you're getting off on a bad footing with some false assumptions.

First, there is a LOT of commonality in the GJJ SD curriculum. The same moves repeat over and over in different context.

Second, it's not static. I can't speak for everyone, everywhere, but I do know that Relson Gracie has continued to evolve the system and that, for that matter, Helio Gracie never stopped tweaking it prior to his death.

Third, that the moves are not designed to heed basic, natural reactions. To some extent it does, but also, if natural instincts were enough there would be no need for SD techniques.

Fourth, that you cannot use SD techniques in rolling is not accurate. I use wristlocks, kesa escapes, guillotine defenses, etc. etc. all the time. It's not all you need, but it is a great foundation.

Anyway, I hope that this thread becomes a cool discussion, as I love all parts of this art, including self defense work and have no objection to making positive contributions but I think that it should not be built on false predicates.

One final thought, which is purely my own perspective: evolution is a messy business, and a lot of the "mutations" result in dead ends. Most people may not have enough experience and insight to come up with better techniques. With sport evolution, the price of failure is very low, you just go back and try something else. With SD techniques, it is quite the opposite.

All that aside, I do think it is good to challenge our assumptions and try to improve the art.
9/12/13 11:39 PM
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MTH
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Very interesting post.

My experience has been that, as a practical matter, BJJ schools are already doing this.

None of the BJJ schools I've trained at teach the "traditional BJJ self defense techniques" I've heard about. I'm a blue belt, and I couldn't show you a single, "official" BJJ self-defense technique. I can grapple obviously, but I have never seen or been taught these techniques.

However, every BJJ school I have ever trained at also offers MMA training. And if you pursue that with the right mind set, I'd argue that is pretty darn close to being the best self-defense system in existence. And it's always evolving.

That said, I really want learn BJJ. I'd love to see a quality source of the "official" BJJ SD techniques, even if they're sort of hokey. If anyone knows any, please toss'em my way. Phone Post 3.0
9/12/13 11:41 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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OUTSTANDING SHEN!

From a modern self-defense standpoint, there are some recognizable "errors" in the BJJ self-defense curriculum, such as:

-Lack of commonality of technique (i.e. each different attack teaches a different response).

-Techniques not reinforced by day to day training. (Example: teaching to do a Kotegaeshi wrist lock when someone grabs your lapel on the street, instead of a response to a lapel grab that is used and reinforced in BJJ rolling)

Then there are the other vital self-defense topics which almost no martial art (including BJJ) teach: awareness skills, the role of intuition, verbal de-escalation skills, physical evasion tactics, the effects of adrenalization, applied criminal psychology, emergency first-aid, legal aspects of self-defense.



To me, it's not just a lack of commonality, the problem is that many of the techniques are not even functional unless you get lucky. Some are, but then comes the issue of training method, which for many is almost kata-ish in form. If the training method is by rote then how does it differ from doing the goshinjutsu?

As an example of a more functional training methiod using the GJJ/BJJ hip throw. I used to drill and work this into standup sparring by crashing my striking opponent, getting the clinch and controlling the arms (to lessen/prevent striking and draw of weapons) and work either a ogoshi, harai goshi or koshi guruma. Relson himself told me to use whichever I like that fits me or the particular situation. Sometimes these particular throws did not present themselves due to high level of resistance (like all training, resistance levels and intensity are varied depending upon objectives, focus, personal reasons, etc.)and so anything could happen. Sometimes a bodylock takedown, duckunder and forklift, striking or even just driving the opponent away/into the wall. If training the SD techniques follows this path of resistance/sparrring then it is easy to discern what needs to me absorbed and what needs to rejected, modified and sought out from other sources.

As for techniques not reinforced in daily training, I'm gonna agree with Mat Pimp's forth point.....Indeed some of the techniques have use in daily training. More importantly the concepts thsat underlie the functional ones are used everywhere in training.
9/12/13 11:50 PM
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sebastard
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I think it's important to have a sparring aspect to your self defense training. Where I train they put you in a circle and people come at you with surprise attacks and you have to deal with it. The motto is "deal with it, preferably with one of the techniques from the self defense curriculum, but deal with it either way". Hesitation is discouraged.

I never did any self defense training before I came into my current academy, so for a long time I was dealing with stuff just pulling from my sport jiu jitsu bag of tricks. Slowly filling in the blanks as I learned the GJJ self defense curriculum.

What I found was that a lot of the GJJ self defense techniques are "shorter" techniques. They're simple, short, with a high potential for instant harm. Wristlocks, over the shoulder armlocks, fast shoulder locks, throws off of armlocks, etc. ... most everything is very instant and short.

While I was initially able to deal with attacks for the most part using my regular "sport" moves, what I found was that my solutions were invariably much longer and much more demanding energy wise. Most of it revolving around dragging people to the floor and taking it from there.

I've experimented with using self defense collar grab and shoulder grab defenses in regular rolling, and while you can get away with some of the locks, a lot of the self defense responses are so short that the potential for injury in full on sparring is pretty high. Obviously the basic headlock escapes, choke defense, bearhug defenses, etc. are all fine to use.

So I think one of the big challenges is finding a way to train the short and potentially harmful stuff in a truly "alive" way, without sending people to the hospital on the regular.

I also think that weapons defenses should include people going nuts on you. Like instead of having a dude come at you with a single knife stab, let him try and jack you up and see how you deal. The party's not over until you have him controlled and subdued.

9/13/13 12:15 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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sebastard - I think it's important to have a sparring aspect to your self defense training. Where I train they put you in a circle and people come at you with surprise attacks and you have to deal with it. The motto is "deal with it, preferably with one of the techniques from the self defense curriculum, but deal with it either way". Hesitation is discouraged.

I never did any self defense training before I came into my current academy, so for a long time I was dealing with stuff just pulling from my sport jiu jitsu bag of tricks. Slowly filling in the blanks as I learned the GJJ self defense curriculum.

What I found was that a lot of the GJJ self defense techniques are "shorter" techniques. They're simple, short, with a high potential for instant harm. Wristlocks, over the shoulder armlocks, fast shoulder locks, throws off of armlocks, etc. ... most everything is very instant and short.

While I was initially able to deal with attacks for the most part using my regular "sport" moves, what I found was that my solutions were invariably much longer and much more demanding energy wise. Most of it revolving around dragging people to the floor and taking it from there.

I've experimented with using self defense collar grab and shoulder grab defenses in regular rolling, and while you can get away with some of the locks, a lot of the self defense responses are so short that the potential for injury in full on sparring is pretty high. Obviously the basic headlock escapes, choke defense, bearhug defenses, etc. are all fine to use.

So I think one of the big challenges is finding a way to train the short and potentially harmful stuff in a truly "alive" way, without sending people to the hospital on the regular.

I also think that weapons defenses should include people going nuts on you. Like instead of having a dude come at you with a single knife stab, let him try and jack you up and see how you deal. The party's not over until you have him controlled and subdued.


I think you're right about the techniques being "shorter".....but that doesn't mean they're efficient. Take the collar grab to wrist lock technique.....works if the attacker doesn't grab you and start hammering you. And if that's the case then the aikido wrist lock (I forget the name and refer to it as the z-lock :p ) works better IMHO.

What works efficiently and more instances? Silat-ish double palm strike or a similar face smash technique like that from WWII combatives......and several other techniques I'm familiar with.

The problem with SD in jiujitsu is that the techniques are oftem forced to be jiujitsu-ish. It's like a guy trained in gun use........in many cases the solution is a gun technique and drives the development of technique. Like the saying goes, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
9/13/13 12:20 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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MTH - Very interesting post.

My experience has been that, as a practical matter, BJJ schools are already doing this.

None of the BJJ schools I've trained at teach the "traditional BJJ self defense techniques" I've heard about. I'm a blue belt, and I couldn't show you a single, "official" BJJ self-defense technique. I can grapple obviously, but I have never seen or been taught these techniques.

However, every BJJ school I have ever trained at also offers MMA training. And if you pursue that with the right mind set, I'd argue that is pretty darn close to being the best self-defense system in existence. And it's always evolving.

That said, I really want learn BJJ. I'd love to see a quality source of the "official" BJJ SD techniques, even if they're sort of hokey. If anyone knows any, please toss'em my way. Phone Post 3.0

MMA is not the answer to SD for the BJJer....that makes no sense unless BJJ is only a sport!?!?!?
9/13/13 1:12 AM
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MTH
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This has been one of the best threads I've seen in awhile. Interesting responses from a lot of folks. 
 
My point was just to note--like someone mentioned as to BJJ above--that a well trained MMA guy is in fact pretty well prepared for most SD scenarios. So we should acknowledge that as a step forward from the more "TMA style" SD techniques. 
 
Has someone who studies only MMA and BJJ incorporated many of the new developments in SD training mentioned by Shen? No almost certainly not. But nevertheless, he's wildly more likely to put a beating on some bar tough guy, pushy homeless man, or daughter's mouthy boyfriend than your average TMA black belt out of the local McDojo. While a guy with serviceable MMA skills may be lacking "tactical" training, he is going to be pretty damn good at dishing out punishment and control quickly, effectively, and over opposition, is likely willing to take some punishment himself, and should be in solid physical condition. 
 
So I think that's progress. If most BJJ students participated in some of the MMA training that's available to them, they'd be better off from a SD perspective than if they only knew the "original" BJJ SD techniques. (Which, again, I don't believe I've ever seen . . . but I've done enough TMAs to know the type.)
 
So the MMA evolution isn't getting the ball all the way across the line of course . . . but in terms of giving students tools that are reasonably likely to help them in a great many of the types of assaults and altercations they may encounter, providing solid MMA training is not exactly inconsequential either. 
 
It also provides a bit of agreed-upon metric. Effective MMA--like effectie BJJ--gets proven in competition. I'd expect seeking to evolve the "official" BJJ SD on a large scale in any other way would be almost impossible unless backed by the IBJJF or the Gracies en masse. 
9/13/13 1:21 AM
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shen
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FWIW, the whole idea of a "self-defense curriculum" WITHIN a martial art is something of an enigma. The really strange thing is that --for some reason-- most martial arts teach very different TYPES of techniques within in their self-defense curriculum...

Take the "HoshinSool" ("Self Defense") in WTF Tae Kwon Do. You spend most of each TKD class practicing every manner of kicks, obviously. But what are you supposed to do when someone actually attacks you, according to their self-defense curriculum...? A lot of O Soto Garis and standing joint locks.

Look at Judo's "Goshinjutsu" ("Self Defense") Kata. You spend each Judo class learning to throw and grapple, but what should you do, according to the kata, if someone attacks you on the street? Apparently some Karate strikes and Tomiki Aikido Wrist Locks!

This is like a boxer being instructed, "Hey man, if you get in a street fight the first thing you should always do is tackle the guy." LOL. Talk about not playing to your own strengths! THAT is why I am critical of the standing wrist locks and such in BJJ's Self-Defense Curriculum. Sure you can try them in sparring, but your self-defense techniques should reflect an art's bread & butter skill set and in BJJ that is a variety of arm & shoulder locks & chokes, not twisting wrist locks.

Truthfully, I have never understood this phenomenon. If they are teaching that material because they want the student to be more "well rounded" or something, then you should do that within the general martial art curriculum, NOT in the street self-defense/goshinjutsu/hoshinsool curriculum.

BTW, as far as the commonality of technique thing... the idea is not that SOME techniques are repeated, obviously they are, the idea is that there is as much commonality in your response to cut down on decision making while under stress. You want it to be streamlined because of Hick's Law and all that jazz. And there is far, far too much variety within the BJJ self-defense curriculum to help much on that front.


-And great posts!!!
9/13/13 1:37 AM
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checkuroil
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The Gracie in Action tapes have very few self defense techniques outside of rushing head first into a trip takedown.

Where are all the hip throws and wrist locks Phone Post 3.0
9/13/13 1:58 AM
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shen
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^ Well, someone might say THAT was Vale Tudo and this is a Self-Defense technique, but I agree with your point.

I'm actually kinda curious if any Gracie has EVER used a twisting wrist lock in a fight where someone has grabbed their shirt or lapel. I'm not saying it can't work, but I have a feeling if someone went up to R. Gracie and grabbed his lapel, the Twisting Wrist Lock is just NOT something that would come out. Much like if a 2nd Dan in Judo is attacked, there is simply no way he is going to bust out his "Goshinjutsu" Judo Chop instead of his Harai Goshi. As we know, people tend to respond with what they know the best and do the most.
9/13/13 2:05 AM
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checkuroil
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We will hear anecdotal wrist lock stuff. But all videos show a sloppy body lock to mount. Phone Post 3.0
9/13/13 2:20 AM
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checkuroil
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Would the Gracie's take a challenger with a club or knife Phone Post 3.0
9/13/13 2:54 AM
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shen
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^ I don't see why not?

A Dog Brother with a stick would be helpless against all that correct leverage!

9/13/13 6:54 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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checkuroil - The Gracie in Action tapes have very few self defense techniques outside of rushing head first into a trip takedown.

Where are all the hip throws and wrist locks Phone Post 3.0

Rorian and Relson use what loojks like harai.....no wrist locks though :p
9/13/13 7:21 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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MTH - 

 

This has been one of the best threads I've seen in awhile. Interesting responses from a lot of folks. 
 
My point was just to note--like someone mentioned as to BJJ above--that a well trained MMA guy is in fact pretty well prepared for most SD scenarios. So we should acknowledge that as a step forward from the more "TMA style" SD techniques. 
 
Has someone who studies only MMA and BJJ incorporated many of the new developments in SD training mentioned by Shen? No almost certainly not. But nevertheless, he's wildly more likely to put a beating on some bar tough guy, pushy homeless man, or daughter's mouthy boyfriend than your average TMA black belt out of the local McDojo. While a guy with serviceable MMA skills may be lacking "tactical" training, he is going to be pretty damn good at dishing out punishment and control quickly, effectively, and over opposition, is likely willing to take some punishment himself, and should be in solid physical condition. 
 
So I think that's progress. If most BJJ students participated in some of the MMA training that's available to them, they'd be better off from a SD perspective than if they only knew the "original" BJJ SD techniques. (Which, again, I don't believe I've ever seen . . . but I've done enough TMAs to know the type.)
 
So the MMA evolution isn't getting the ball all the way across the line of course . . . but in terms of giving students tools that are reasonably likely to help them in a great many of the types of assaults and altercations they may encounter, providing solid MMA training is not exactly inconsequential either. 
 
It also provides a bit of agreed-upon metric. Effective MMA--like effectie BJJ--gets proven in competition. I'd expect seeking to evolve the "official" BJJ SD on a large scale in any other way would be almost impossible unless backed by the IBJJF or the Gracies en masse. 

So MMA competitionis the only way to measure effective fighting skill?.....what is the training method of effective combat sports? Is it not resistance?

So would not keeping effective fighting/SD jiujitsu techniques and modifying or incorporating supplementary ones from other source and "proving" them using resistance be a better route of evolving jiujitsu rather than saying...."Go train MMA"?

MMA has its own limitations. There are certain things in vale tudo that are against the rules of MMA. Techniques from other sources are likewise illegal. For example, I like training certain techniques based upon silat like a throat grab, etc. I spar these from the clinch (double biceps tie or overhook), get my opponent very upright or leaned over to the side and execute a harai, osoto or even a shin bind takedown, needless to say such would be illegal yet can still be incorporated in sparring. The key is resistance...no? And MMA requires the use of gloves.....a wrapped and gloved hand are very different than unwrapped, ungloved ones.

I'm bleary-eyed already....goodnight
9/13/13 7:48 AM
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Hunter V
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9/13/13 8:08 AM
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ChipW
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I've done several self defense style close range gun fighting classes. One thing that you learn real quick is that inside of 5 feet some sort of physical contact is going to occur before you can access a weapon.

I train jiujitsu at a place were we do the Gracie standing self defense everyday as a warmup. While none of the moves look the same at full speed as they do in class, I did have some success with the 2 on 1 grip against a knife, the stick defense and fouling the other guys draw stroke.

The big difference in the techniques drilled in class and going live against a red man suit is that the techniques never stop the guy, they buy some time but he keeps coming and you have to keep fighting.

I will say all my BJJ, wrestling and gun training combine prepared me pretty well for the close quarters gun classes. Guys who have had fighting or grappling experience usually do a lot better than the just gun guys.

I will also add that situational awareness and not doing stupid things, in stupid places with stupid people is the best self defense Phone Post
9/13/13 10:10 AM
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deepu
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Member Since: 1/1/01
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Self defense is too broad a topic to handle in any martial arts context. When you think about it, how exactly is one supposed to cover stress, panic, knife, stick, rock, gun etc situations with 20 students in a class on a day to day basis? This would require a lifetime of knowledge in various martial arts.

BJJ, well at least old school BJJ taught us to fight. Basic boxing, wrestling, classic self defense techniques and finally a shit load of BJJ will build confidence and prepare a student for a self defense situation more than most other martial arts imo.
9/13/13 12:03 PM
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oblongo
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Member Since: 4/20/02
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I've seen only a few clips of his material and read a few magazine articles about it. But isn't Burton Richardson doing at least some of the things Shen is talking about with his BJJ for the Street?

And with the same caveat that I'm only superficially familiar with what they are doing, but aren't the ISR Matrix and DBMA taking BJJ and other others and building self defense curricula that do at least some of those things as well?

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