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UnderGround Forums >> Royce Criticizes New Generation Of The Family


9/16/13 10:10 PM
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CaptChaos
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Maia got away from his BJj to learn stand up and wrestling. He relied on his stand up a little too much IMO. Plus he was too small for the MW division.

Now he's in a weight class that is best for him plus he's been working very hard on his wrestling takedowns. His fight against Fitch was very impressive. BJJ practitions (if they are going to work on wrestling) should at least work on their takedowns because without them they won't be able to take the fight into their world.

I also agree that most of the Gracie's aren't the best athletes. Yeah 1 Graie was at WSOf but he barely won. A better fighter would have ok'd that kid.

I also don't think some of the Brazilians seem to wantbtontake advantage of weight cutting like the Americans and fighters from other countries... Rua can fight at 185, Maia is now at 170, Big Nog can get down to LHW with his bro, and the are many more.
9/16/13 10:15 PM
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countsavage
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I would like to here what Renzo thinks because he is/was the best Gracie. I guess you can make the argument that Rickson or Ralf were the best but I do believe Renzo was the most well rounded. Phone Post 3.0
9/16/13 10:21 PM
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CowboysStuntDouble
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Is that why he took steroids and got wrestlefucked by Matt Hughes? Phone Post 3.0
9/16/13 10:22 PM
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Katsumoto
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if Royce is so confident that pure (Gracie!) jujitsu is best, then he should fight again to prove it. i'm not saying put him up against younger guys, but a non-jujitsu fighter in his age range.

9/16/13 10:23 PM
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colubrid1
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BJJ wasn't enough when Royce fought in a lighter class against Matt Hughes
9/16/13 10:24 PM
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mestregruber
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clonditdry - 1. Royce is completely wrong.

2. He is still thinking/living in the dinosaur age

3. He got dominated in modern day MMA by guys that were nowhere near as good as the top level guys now

4. He got popped for roids and still got dominated.

/end thread.

For the record, Royce won the fight he tested positive for.
9/16/13 10:31 PM
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StretchPlum
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This is just the standard: "When I came up we fought on broken glass. These young kids don't know, etc etc"
9/16/13 10:35 PM
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wiggum
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I think there is something noteworthy to this line of thinking:

There are a few fighters coming up who are "true mixed martial artists." But I think the majority of the great fighters still stick to their base. GSP has wrestling, Anderson has standup, Hendricks has a huge power shot that his wrestling gives opportunities too, etc. They all have other strengths, but that base really matters. Maia is the prototypical example. He completely got away from what he is: a great jiujitsu fighter.

My take is that strong BJJ guys should focus on BJJ and wrestling. For stand up, simply learn enough to make your BJJ and wrestling work.

Wrestlers get a little more leeway because they control more where the fight takes place.
9/16/13 10:46 PM
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Smith1234
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As others said, Royce is wrong but has a point. These guys should wrestle and BJj. They can be bad strikers though. Phone Post 3.0
9/16/13 10:48 PM
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thebasher
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countsavage - I would like to here what Renzo thinks because he is/was the best Gracie. I guess you can make the argument that Rickson or Ralf were the best but I do believe Renzo was the most well rounded. Phone Post 3.0

Renzo was never the best - not by a long way
9/16/13 10:51 PM
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Wasa-B
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wiggum - I think there is something noteworthy to this line of thinking:

There are a few fighters coming up who are "true mixed martial artists." But I think the majority of the great fighters still stick to their base. GSP has wrestling, Anderson has standup, Hendricks has a huge power shot that his wrestling gives opportunities too, etc. They all have other strengths, but that base really matters. Maia is the prototypical example. He completely got away from what he is: a great jiujitsu fighter.

My take is that strong BJJ guys should focus on BJJ and wrestling. For stand up, simply learn enough to make your BJJ and wrestling work.

Wrestlers get a little more leeway because they control more where the fight takes place.

Still, id have to think that Maia's experience with striking thru those times have helped him be more comfortable on his feet and get used to getting past strikes to the tds.

Royce is a complete hypocrite as usual. Besides the fact he roided against Sak when he was supposedly the poster child against them, he trained in kickboxing himself quite a bit and it was his front kick that won him his bout against Sak in the rematch (and roids).

God, BJJ and the Gracies may be underappreciated today but theres goes Royce again making a fool of himself.
9/16/13 10:52 PM
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Wasa-B
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thebasher - 
countsavage - I would like to here what Renzo thinks because he is/was the best Gracie. I guess you can make the argument that Rickson or Ralf were the best but I do believe Renzo was the most well rounded. Phone Post 3.0

Renzo was never the best - not by a long way

In MMA, which Gracie was better than Renzo then? Lets see this long way....

9/16/13 11:07 PM
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future_jabroni
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I have all the respect in the world for the Gracie family, but Royce is wrong. He's just being headstrong. To counter his point about history, look at his rematch against Shamrock. That was before there were decisions, but if that had been the case Shamrock would have been given the decision. Royce needed more than bjj even that early in UFC history, before there were bjj schools in every city.
9/16/13 11:15 PM
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Compression
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I believe he is right with the younger generation of his family, they get suckered into striking & don't do well, & they would probably do better if they fought their game. Royce may not have been the most talented in JJ in his family, but I always felt that he was better at judging the timing of his opponent, moving in & leaching onto them then any other members of his family. He got himself in a position where he could work his game. Ben Askren does the same with his wrestling, it may not always be very entertaining, but it's affective. Early Cro Cop did the same with his striking game, he had great vision & timing in learning how to prevent himself from getting taken down. Machida does this now too.

I think most people are missing Royce's point. He said that he studied boxing to judge distance & wrestling to see how they would take him down, but basically he wasn't gonna get suckered into another styles game. "I do jiu-jitsu my whole life, so why would I try to stand and bang with Mike Tyson? I’m going to learn boxing in six months because my opponent is good in boxing? That makes no sense." If you trained BJJ your whole life, don't stand & trade with a striker, judge distance right & work on your timing on when to go in for the takedown. With a wrestler, don't get into a wrestling match, study a wrestlers movement, beat them to the punch or counter their takedown so you end up in the better position. Or if they get you down learn to be able to work your game from bad positions. There are holes in every style & every opponent. Find them & exploit them with your particular style.

I feel it's good to have knowledge of many styles, but you should never abandon your main art in favor of another. You should learn enough to get the fight to where your art is the the strongest, find ways to be able to keep it there & finish them. Believe in your style & learn how to keep or get the fight where you fight best. Jeremy Horn even says that there are better athletes in mma today but the technique is not as good. Improve your technique in your style, believe in it & you will have success. That's basically what Royce is saying. He never said they would win all the time, but more so that they would have a better percentage of winning.
9/17/13 12:06 AM
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OppressedAtheist
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ranier wolfcastle - 

the new gracies are fighting welll rounded opponents


Truth. The new generation of Gracie's don't have the luxury of fighting opponents like Art 'One Glove' Jimmerson.
9/17/13 12:07 AM
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Bucephalus
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EddieBravo - Royce is the Dan Severn of Jiu Jitsu Phone Post 3.0

That is some funny shit dude. hahaha
9/17/13 12:27 AM
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markus
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personally...i am a fan of ralek. i think he has the best jiujitsu for mma of any 3rd generation gracie.
9/17/13 12:38 AM
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Bucephalus
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MMA is not a real fight and it's not valetudo. Royce knows that.. he was saying it for years.. yet he seems to selectively forget when it suits him. MMA is a sport with very particular rules and judging. You can't excel at MMA waiting for people to take you down.. especially if their plan is to stand.

Also.. from Carlson to Rolls to Rickson... all those guys studied boxing and wrestling. Jiu jitsu for open fighting is already is a product of crosstraining, so there is no contradiction.
9/17/13 12:59 AM
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akb62
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Matt Hughes almost submitted him. GJJ not enough Phone Post 3.0
9/17/13 1:02 AM
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Stone Rolled
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Royce Gracie didn't learn anything from his fight with Matt Hughes apparently. Why couldn't he use his pure jiujitsu to sweep Matt and armbar him? He obviously didn't train enough GJJ.
9/17/13 1:16 AM
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Atomic
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun - Because Gracies are not very good athletes
Better athletes with solid training = Gracie's no can defend.

It's similar to what would happen if a 1950's football team lined up against a modern team. Phone Post 3.0
9/17/13 1:58 AM
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MrColdCock
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colubrid1 - BJJ wasn't enough when Royce fought in a lighter class against Matt Hughes
Actually it was.... For Hughes. Which, if you think about it, helps solidify Royce's point.

Hughes is one of the all time greats who didn't fall in love with becoming a sub par striker (outside of the Serra fight). I would be willing to bet Royce 100% approves of Hughes' fighting approach. Phone Post
9/17/13 2:32 AM
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rbl
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Whether or not you agree with Royce, one dimensional, aggressive submissions guys make for some very exciting fights. Palhares, Aoki and Imanari all have minimal striking skills but they have had some spectacular fights (win or lose), as a fan I'd like to see more Gracies go down that route.

9/17/13 2:46 AM
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Zero1
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In my opinion Royce is 100% correct. It.
9/17/13 2:46 AM
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Thacommish
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wiggum - I think there is something noteworthy to this line of thinking:

There are a few fighters coming up who are "true mixed martial artists." But I think the majority of the great fighters still stick to their base. GSP has wrestling, Anderson has standup, Hendricks has a huge power shot that his wrestling gives opportunities too, etc. They all have other strengths, but that base really matters. Maia is the prototypical example. He completely got away from what he is: a great jiujitsu fighter.

My take is that strong BJJ guys should focus on BJJ and wrestling. For stand up, simply learn enough to make your BJJ and wrestling work.

Wrestlers get a little more leeway because they control more where the fight takes place.

gsp has wrestling but that wasnt exactly his base, it became it

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