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UnderGround Forums >> Royce Criticizes New Generation Of The Family


9/17/13 2:46 AM
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Thacommish
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wiggum - I think there is something noteworthy to this line of thinking:

There are a few fighters coming up who are "true mixed martial artists." But I think the majority of the great fighters still stick to their base. GSP has wrestling, Anderson has standup, Hendricks has a huge power shot that his wrestling gives opportunities too, etc. They all have other strengths, but that base really matters. Maia is the prototypical example. He completely got away from what he is: a great jiujitsu fighter.

My take is that strong BJJ guys should focus on BJJ and wrestling. For stand up, simply learn enough to make your BJJ and wrestling work.

Wrestlers get a little more leeway because they control more where the fight takes place.

gsp has wrestling but that wasnt exactly his base, it became it
9/17/13 3:09 AM
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wiggum
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^^True enough.

I think GSP, Fedor, Anderson, and Pettis are a rare breed in that they are SO dangerous everywhere. Most top 10 guys thought know what they are good at and play to their strengths.
9/17/13 3:14 AM
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heliotropic
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bjj only = high risk, high reward
9/17/13 4:30 AM
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WrestlingSucks
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Royce isn't wrong at all in regards to Roger. Roger got caught in a situation where he felt like he could out jab a better striker and when it didn't work, he just kept plugging away at it.

If you're a d1 wrestler, and a bjj blackbelt, you spent about 16 years as a grappler. Why on earth deviate from that?
9/17/13 5:45 AM
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Stipe
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Royce is being silly here.
9/17/13 5:56 AM
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banco
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Think he's just trying to defend the brand.
9/17/13 6:08 AM
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Ajm1218
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Royce is completely off the mark. EVERYONE at the higher levels is good at BJJ. Is everyone as good on the ground as Roger Gracie? Obviously not, but they're good enough to make high level competition black belts work hard on the ground in sport BJJ. Now if you're in a fight with a guy who's ground work is relatively equal to yours but his striking is lightyears ahead, you're probably gonna get beat up just trying to get it to the ground and once you're there it's not a guarantee of anything.

Cyborg would SMASH Royce at anytime in his life. I know people are going to say Schaub didn't attack but you still saw him avoid getting swept or subbed by one of the best around. Randy against Jacare would be another example that it's not just get it to the ground and sub the guy in 5 seconds.
9/17/13 6:17 AM
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Bucephalus
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Edited: 09/17/13 6:17 AM
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Ajm1218 - Cyborg would SMASH Royce at anytime in his life.

If you are talking about the female Cyborg, you are absolutely delusional in every sense of the word. Fucking ludicrous. It took Royce 5 minutes to armbar a 250lb Kimo.. and less time to beat Pat Smith by strikes.. and you think she is going to "SMASH" Royce at anytime in his career? He would have taken all 145lbs of her down and choked the shit out of her. It's crazy that I even have to say that.
9/17/13 6:28 AM
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wiggum
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^^He is not talking about the female Cyborg, as evidenced from his discussing Schuab.
9/17/13 6:29 AM
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BJ Penn Forever
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EddieBravo - Royce is the Dan Severn of Jiu Jitsu Phone Post 3.0

Royce Gracie would work Eddie Bravo bad in a NHB, MMA, or street fight and I like Eddie Bravo as a person. Just objective analysis.

9/17/13 6:50 AM
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Winston Wolf
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i agree .Nothing worse than seeing a great ground fighter fight the entire fight standing up
9/17/13 7:20 AM
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cm81
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I agree with Royce.

Cross training is good, esp with wrestling for BJJ. But it should be to improve your chances to use BJJ. Royce is absolutely spot on when he says it makes no sense for BJJ guys to try to box... no suprises why Rolles had to do the Ric Flair flop.

Look at Maia. He's become a killer now. Before this he tried to be a striker and paid the price.

Aoki also got KTFO by Alvarez when he tried his muay thai stuff. Then went back to his roots and is doing well again.

Roger was more of a cardio problem IMO. Phone Post 3.0
9/17/13 7:43 AM
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YumYumPandaburger
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Didn't Royce use mainly stand & wang (and some PED's) to decision Sakuraba in their second fight?
9/17/13 7:48 AM
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Illidan
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Devlin - I think what he means is they are getting away from their strengths, like maia towards the end.of.his time at 185.

Too keen to showcase average striking and not keen enough to come in looking to.grapple. Phone Post
This Phone Post
9/17/13 7:54 AM
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Y2JB
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Edited: 09/17/13 8:01 AM
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Playing to your strengths (and opponents weaknesses) is essential but being a pure specialist is unlikely to cut it in the sport today. I suppose you have Askren, Maia, Shields etc who have found some success in being specialists but to reach the top of the mountain you 100% MUST be well rounded, to claim anything else is just plain wrong.

(Askren is at the Everest basecamp, not the summit).
9/17/13 8:24 AM
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Blunderhooks
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teamquestnorth -
TheOne -
teamquestnorth -  Man that kind of advice from royce to someone like kron for example could get him hurt. Guess what royce if you cant take your opponent down, your going to be forced to stand and trade. Well you can buttscoot but nobodies falling for that. Also beating Tim Kennedy means you should get a title shot? Come on man. I respect and admire royce as much as anyone but thats just a really bad view on his part. Phone Post

Not to be "that guy" but if you cant take your opponent down you can pull guard... (thats different that butt scooting)

Yeah you can pull guard until the other guy pulls out, backs away and you get stood up. Watch allistair vs werdum in strikeforce for that masterful technique Phone Post
Or saku vs Royce!!!!! Phone Post 3.0
9/17/13 8:58 AM
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MattyECB
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If Royce took a couture stance, like when he called out wrestlers for becoming obsessed with boxing and losing their roots, I'd agree. I mean that's kind of what happened to Maia, his striking just got better and better, but he completely forgot how pwn-tacular his wrestling/BJJ is...

But Royce is just being a classic, delusional Gracie here. He's done wonders for the sport, BJJ is incredibly vital to MMA, but to say it's all you need is pathetic. I can't count how many times I've seen mediocre BJJers in MMA fights unable to get the fight to the ground, butt flopping en route to a UD loss, or getting lit up standing...

Can you think of one remotely successful MMA fighter in recent years who's completely one dimensional? And please, no one say Askren, AS, Georges or Maia, because you're really missing out on a large part of their game then lol
9/17/13 8:59 AM
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Kneeblock
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Demian Maia has proven that all you need is jiu jitsu and a quality weight cutting regimen. Phone Post
9/17/13 9:46 AM
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ChaosOverkill
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Kneeblock -  Demian Maia has proven that all you need is jiu jitsu and a quality weight cutting regimen. Phone Post

Not enough for a belt yet though. He couldn't "Royce" Silva.

9/17/13 10:23 AM
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ChaosOverkill
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GreatCornholio - This is really a question of degree. Where is there too much cross-training, where too little?

When I saw awesome grapplers like Matt Serra and Ken Florian winning with strikes, but sometimes struggling in guard, I wondered if they took things too far. But then again I would also wonder how awesome they would be if they did 40 daily minutes of takedowns from when they first put on the Gi.

Where is the line between too much and not enough?

Royce is a legend, but even he is a case and point. Hughes beat him using jiu jitsu. Relson complained that Royce cross-trained too much. I respect Royce a key reason that all of us are on this website, and many of us are studying jiu jitsu, but he's a little one sided on this.

Did Roger do too much cross training? I'm not sure. I would have liked him to finish Kennedy from the back. How about Rolles? I think he just got caught. He wasn't in a situation to finish, and his hands looked good until then. Jiu Jitsu alone doesn't help against a wrestler with good hands.

It seems like a moot point though, the way he started and faded in that fight wasn't due to lack of BJJ it was due to his weight cut and cardio problems.

 

If he had a decent cardio level he would have won that fight with Kenedy, he would have had the cardio left to drag him down once Kennedy started to fade.

9/17/13 10:32 AM
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billyball2
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ChaosOverkill - 

Legend, but Sakuraba proved it isn't enough sorry. He proved Catch-wrestling could equal it and beat it.

 

Great grappling and cardio, is maybe enough, but not always  either


This is a good point.

9/17/13 10:46 AM
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billyball2
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Taz Styles - 

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/9/16/4738052/royce-gracie-criticizes-new-generation-of-the-family

Being a member of the Gracie family makes you more respected in the MMA world, but that does not guarantee you the victory.

Neiman Gracie was the only one of the three Gracie members to win at WSOF 5 this past Saturday night, and Royce Gracie believes the reason why his family isn’t winning most of their fights anymore is because they are forgetting their roots.

"Jiu-jitsu is enough," Royce Gracie told MMAFighting.com. "I’ve trained boxing in the past to learn the distance, trained wrestling to understand how he would take me down, but I won’t get there to fight my opponent’s game. The (new) guys (from the Gracie) family want to complement their game, like if jiu-jitsu was incomplete. I guess they forgot a little about history."

Gregor and Rolles Gracie both lost at WSOF 5, and that dropped the family record to 3-4 in 2013. Over the past decades, Royce, Renzo and Rickson have racked up 32 wins in 44 bouts combined, a winning rate of 72.72 percent. Since 2000, however, that number has dropped to 58.82 percent with the family’s 60 wins in 102 fights.

"I do jiu-jitsu my whole life, so why would I try to stand and bang with Mike Tyson?," he said. "I’m going to learn boxing in six months because my opponent is good in boxing? That makes no sense."

Roger, Renzo and Rolles have fought recently in the UFC, and all of them lost their bouts inside the Octagon. Tim Kennedy was the last man to deliver a loss to a Gracie member in the UFC with a decision win over Roger Gracie last July.

Royce believes Roger Gracie, one of the best jiu-jitsu fighters of all times, needs to focus on what he does best.

"Roger, like any other member of the family, is trying to learn wrestling, boxing," he said. "I believe in pure jiu-jitsu. That’s what I’ve done in the past. You have to go back to your roots and train Gracie jiu-jitsu."

"Tim Kennedy is one of the toughest guys in my opinion," he continued. "If Roger had defeated him, he’d have deserved a title shot. Tim Kennedy is really, really tough. Why they cut Roger I really don’t know either, I have no idea.
 


" "I’ve trained boxing in the past to learn the distance, trained wrestling to understand how he would take me down, but I won’t get there to fight my opponent’s game."

What Royce fails to accept is that the other fighters have done the same thing and learned BJJ. Some even have BLACK BELTS!

This means that in addition to their high level skill in other aspects of the game, they can negate or match the BJJ skills brought into the Octagon by the Gracies...
9/17/13 11:06 AM
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX
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OppressedAtheist - 
ranier wolfcastle - 

the new gracies are fighting welll rounded opponents


Truth. The new generation of Gracie's don't have the luxury of fighting opponents like Art 'One Glove' Jimmerson.

LOL at picking the 1st and easiest fight Royce ever had to make your point. Shamrock, Severn, Kimo, Hackney, Yoshida, Saku, Hackney, Remco, Pat Smith, etc!
9/17/13 11:09 AM
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX
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Bucephalus - 
EddieBravo - Royce is the Dan Severn of Jiu Jitsu Phone Post 3.0

That is some funny shit dude. hahaha

its only funny because of the jealousy involved. Royce used his BJJ to win 3 of 4 UFC tourney's and put UFC on the map! what have you done with your BJJ Eddie besides beat Royler 6 decades ago?
9/17/13 11:12 AM
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX
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Stone Rolled - Royce Gracie didn't learn anything from his fight with Matt Hughes apparently. Why couldn't he use his pure jiujitsu to sweep Matt and armbar him? He obviously didn't train enough GJJ.

or MAYBE it was a bad night. LL fighters have had them. Royce felt it was and has asked for a rematch EVER SINCE! aside from the fact it was a Prime Hughes vs a not so prime Royce, its hilarious you tards use ONE fight as an example. other than the 90 minute loss to Saku, please enlightin us as to all the other times his BJJ wasnt good enough and he got his ass beat?

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