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UnderGround Forums >> Rogan still believe UFC is "Swallowing" Boxing ?


9/21/13 8:53 AM
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Harold_Howard
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If UFC put on a few cards a year it would do just as good in ppv sales, if not better Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 8:55 AM
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JudOWNED
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Haven't read this whole thread, but would be interesting to see the comparison between total UFC (or even MMA) PPV buys in a year, versus total boxing PPV buys in a year. Would also be interesting to see a comparison of "free" MMA events vs "free" boxing events, both in number of events as well as ratings they pulled.

Either way, my enjoyment of MMA has nothing to do with whether or not it is "swallowing" or killing boxing. But it is cool to have seen the sport grow so much and so fast within such a relatively short time. That people even bother to compare it to boxing, which has been around in it's current form for over a hundred years, is pretty amazing.
9/21/13 8:56 AM
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UGCTT_iPray2bLaidByWeidman
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pursuitofhappiness - And on a side note: How many PPV's does the UFC sell compared to boxing per year? Not even including all the free fights.
Difference is boxing never losses money on there ppvs cause they know who draws and doesn't. 165k and 170k for the last ufc is not a success.

The gsp vs diaz card, they put a lot of work into that and put the right fights and it showed, I wish they got that extra 100k to make it 1 million buys but just came up short.

That's the thing with ufc though, you never know what to expect. Boxing, we know the moment a floyd or paquaio fight is made its guarenteed 1mil+ buys

If they stepped up the gear with promoting the last two ppvs of the year, there is no doubt one of those should be atleast 1mil+ buys.

Bur you never know with gsp or anderson. At Times they pulll in big numbers, then a lot of other times they don't.

Fact is 12-14 ppvs a year is not smart. You are going to get a lot more shit buys than good ones most of the time, and that's how its been so far this year.

If one of those two last cards for this year don't break the millions there is something seriously wrong Phone Post
So youre saying the lost money on those 150k cards? Can you source that...I never heard they lost money. Phone Post
9/21/13 8:58 AM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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liquidmuse3 - Did the guy just say Mike Tyson is in no one's top 50 ever? Do me a favour, go online, google "best boxers" of all time, look at the top 10 lists, & tell me Tyson isn't in everyone's top 5-10.
Lol no real boxing fans have tyson in there top 10. He was a paper champion that beat no one outside of a fossil larey Holmes and cruiserweight Michael spinks.

Tyson got the rep he did for his violent fights, not for what he accomplished, cause he hasn't accomplished anything Phone Post

Most disagree with you, they just see Tyson as someone who let drugs and women and mental issues destroy his career. When Gus had him on the straight and narrow he was a tornado. If he retired after he beat Spinks, before he went berserk with drinking and drugs etc he would easily be a top 5 all time fighter
Not any of my boxing fans or people I spoke boxung with has them in there top 50.

Go to a boxing site and say he is a top 20, let alone top 10 and everyone will laugh. Phone Post

That's because you are looking at it in terms of a top 20 career or top 20 resume, all of the trainers I ever spoke to in person said he had all the talent and ability in the world before he went hard on the drugs/party scene and basically stopped training. Teddy Atlas couldn't even get him in the gym
9/21/13 8:58 AM
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UGCTT_iPray2bLaidByWeidman
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


Why are you arbitrarily only looking at everything above 500K? Here are the average UFC PPV buys per year since 2006:

2006: 527
2007: 447.63
2008: 528.75
2009: 616.92
2010: 522.69
2011: 398.46
2012 448.84
2013: 480

(in thousands)
(Source: http://mmapayout.com/blue-book/pay-per-view/)

If you take out the outlier of UFC 100 in 2009 (1.6 million) then 2009 is about 535K on average. Since 2011 (UFC's low point in terms of buys) the trend has been steadily upwards, but hasn't crested its peak (2009). This data includes Jung-Aldo but not Bendo-Pettis since I don't think those numbers are out yet.
It is also important to count the actual number of PPVs they put on each year, as that number has increased over the years. Phone Post
9/21/13 9:00 AM
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man meets fate
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


10 of the top 15 ppvs of 2012 were from the UFC, 4 were from boxing and 3 of those were from Floyd or Pac. Take away boxings biggest stars and people stop watching. People will watch UFC regardless because the brand and sport is bigger than the fighters and in boxing it is the opposite.
That is such a crock of shit theory.

Hey why don't we take out boxing and ufc ppvs and see how many wwe ppvs doing amazing vs the shit of tna?


Your taking out basically all of there ppvs.

How about this, leave 1 manny or floyd ppv and take out all of ufcs biggest draws except 1 and pick 1 card in a year and pick 4 of any without them and see how shit ufc looks in terms of buys without them.

You will see nothing but hendo/evans and aldo/kz numbers Phone Post
9/21/13 9:01 AM
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UGCTT_iPray2bLaidByWeidman
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pursuitofhappiness - And on a side note: How many PPV's does the UFC sell compared to boxing per year? Not even including all the free fights.
No one wants to aknowledge that because it ruins the argument. Phone Post
9/21/13 9:05 AM
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man meets fate
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


10 of the top 15 ppvs of 2012 were from the UFC, 4 were from boxing and 3 of those were from Floyd or Pac. Take away boxings biggest stars and people stop watching. People will watch UFC regardless because the brand and sport is bigger than the fighters and in boxing it is the opposite.
That is such a crock of shit theory.

Hey why don't we take out boxing and ufc ppvs and see how many wwe ppvs doing amazing vs the shit of tna?


Your taking out basically all of there ppvs.

How about this, leave 1 manny or floyd ppv and take out all of ufcs biggest draws except 1 and pick 1 card in a year and pick 4 of any without them and see how shit ufc looks in terms of buys without them.

You will see nothing but hendo/evans and aldo/kz numbers Phone Post
And fyi, its very difficult for boxing to have its own brand compared to mma ehen mma is one company dominating an entire industry. They actually have other promotions who have money and. the rep to go head to head. Phone Post
9/21/13 9:09 AM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


10 of the top 15 ppvs of 2012 were from the UFC, 4 were from boxing and 3 of those were from Floyd or Pac. Take away boxings biggest stars and people stop watching. People will watch UFC regardless because the brand and sport is bigger than the fighters and in boxing it is the opposite.
That is such a crock of shit theory.

Hey why don't we take out boxing and ufc ppvs and see how many wwe ppvs doing amazing vs the shit of tna?


Your taking out basically all of there ppvs.

How about this, leave 1 manny or floyd ppv and take out all of ufcs biggest draws except 1 and pick 1 card in a year and pick 4 of any without them and see how shit ufc looks in terms of buys without them.

You will see nothing but hendo/evans and aldo/kz numbers Phone Post

what does WWE vs TNA have to do with anything?

10 of the top 15 ppvs were from the UFC, this includes both of the fake wrestling sports, UFC and boxing

the next part of your post is confusing but let me see if I can understand.

You want me to compare a GSP card vs a Floyd or Pac card? Then choose any 4 cards I want from the UFC and stack it against boxing?
9/21/13 9:13 AM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


10 of the top 15 ppvs of 2012 were from the UFC, 4 were from boxing and 3 of those were from Floyd or Pac. Take away boxings biggest stars and people stop watching. People will watch UFC regardless because the brand and sport is bigger than the fighters and in boxing it is the opposite.
That is such a crock of shit theory.

Hey why don't we take out boxing and ufc ppvs and see how many wwe ppvs doing amazing vs the shit of tna?


Your taking out basically all of there ppvs.

How about this, leave 1 manny or floyd ppv and take out all of ufcs biggest draws except 1 and pick 1 card in a year and pick 4 of any without them and see how shit ufc looks in terms of buys without them.

You will see nothing but hendo/evans and aldo/kz numbers Phone Post
And fyi, its very difficult for boxing to have its own brand compared to mma ehen mma is one company dominating an entire industry. They actually have other promotions who have money and. the rep to go head to head. Phone Post

and this is why boxing stars get paid so much more, there is competition for their services. UFC is a brand just like the NFL is a brand and the NBA is a brand. People will watch regardless of who the players are. Even if they are less talented. In boxing it is a game of a few select individuals that people either want to see or don't want to see.
9/21/13 10:06 AM
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R1WARRIOR
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You guys should stop comparing numbers. I think Rogan is right, here's why: a big part of the boxing fans are getting old, most of them are baby boomers, but still watching it, and that's a lot of poeple. Problem is, and think about it, do you hear a lot about boxing from the 35 yo and younger people around you?? In my case they are all mma fans, and never or very rarely talk about boxing. So in 20 years.... I don't know but that's how i see it. Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 10:46 AM
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antifanboy devon
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EatonBeever -
CapnKindBud - Who goes on an mma forum to start bashing the sport? That's a serious troll thing to do but ok, I'll play. Boxing is on the decline. Mma is on the way up. Boxing has been around for way longer and has deep roots in the USA's psyche .
Given time, I believe that mma will grow very much and the fans will reflect that in far larger numbers than you see today . Phone Post 3.0

Who's bashing the sport of MMA ?   UFC is not a sport, its an organization that talked a big talk with one of its commentators going on ESPN and making stupid idiot statements of "UFC will swallow Boxing".  I'm here to say that it DIDNT HAPPEN!

... Someone made a prediction that didn't turn out to be correct? Is the world still turning? Calm Down buddy. Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 11:27 AM
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CaptainPlanet
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R1WARRIOR - You guys should stop comparing numbers. I think Rogan is right, here's why: a big part of the boxing fans are getting old, most of them are baby boomers, but still watching it, and that's a lot of poeple. Problem is, and think about it, do you hear a lot about boxing from the 35 yo and younger people around you?? In my case they are all mma fans, and never or very rarely talk about boxing. So in 20 years.... I don't know but that's how i see it. Phone Post 3.0
The only people in the 35 and under demographic that aren't talking about boxing are white, for whatever reason. Boxing remains huge in the Latino and black communities here in the states. At the same time, MMA seems to lack that crossover appeal. Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 12:00 PM
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Chris27
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


Why are you arbitrarily only looking at everything above 500K? Here are the average UFC PPV buys per year since 2006:

2006: 527
2007: 447.63
2008: 528.75
2009: 616.92
2010: 522.69
2011: 398.46
2012 448.84
2013: 480

(in thousands)
(Source: http://mmapayout.com/blue-book/pay-per-view/)

If you take out the outlier of UFC 100 in 2009 (1.6 million) then 2009 is about 535K on average. Since 2011 (UFC's low point in terms of buys) the trend has been steadily upwards, but hasn't crested its peak (2009). This data includes Jung-Aldo but not Bendo-Pettis since I don't think those numbers are out yet.

UFC still has 4 PPV that all should do 500k or more which would make it 7 this year.

 

Nobody is denying mma peaked in 2010 and has gone down in the US but PPV numbers are up and should be the biggest since 2010.  So yeah its not what it was years ago but its moving back up from the last few years which is a good sign.  Well for fans who like the sport and want it to do well its a good sign.

9/21/13 12:56 PM
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HenryO
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nobones - 

Captian planet hit on a good point. Demographics matter, and MMA hasn't significantly crossed over to ethnic minorities who dominate the boxing market. U.S. Latinos in particular are the fastest growing demo within the U.S. and they are still huge boxing fans, BUT would be ameable to MMA if you could sell them on the stars. 

Cain should be a hit, but IMO the UFC doesn't promote Cain in the right way. And Cain doesn't do himself any favors by being so soft spoken. But this can change if they play up Pettis in the right way, who should resonate with the Puerto Rican fans, who are huge into boxing. UFC could also play up Erik Perez, who I know lost his last fight, but if he can bounce back - is the first Mexican-born fighter that can help introduce the sport to that huge audience. 

UFC still has lots of room to grow, but they can do it if they market themselves correctly. 

 


Did being soft spoken ever hurt just about every big mexican boxing star?

People like the high level of technique and great fights that happen at the top levels of boxing.

MMA fights arent on that level yet, and may never get there. MMA is still about a lot of fights and the quick finish
9/21/13 2:02 PM
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CaliKush
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I think annually the global population watched more mma than boxing Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 2:26 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Jons Forsberg -
Joeymarvelous - 
Jons Forsberg -
Joeymarvelous - 
Jons Forsberg -
Joeymarvelous -  I think most people are ignoring the fact that boxing has had a head start of HUNDREDS of years to build up a fan base. Phone Post

10 years in the facebook/twitter/iphone era > 100 years in radio and black and white TV and newspaper.
True, but only among the demographics most comfortable with modern technology. Old fucks tend to reject new things, including both MMA and digital media. Phone Post

people said boxing fans were old and dying off 10 years ago, it just sold the all time PPV record last week. It's an old easy to debunk fallacy.
Regardless of what was said ten years ago, older people are still less likely to stream things and less likely to understand MMA. Younger fans generally can appreciate BOTH sports, and by having a good number of fans both young and old, boxing is able to capitalize the opportunity and outpace MMA, which is generally limited to the younger audience at present. Phone Post

old people are less likely to stream things but they're more likely to gather families to watch boxing PPV. Minorities gather to watch their national heroes, sometimes 20 or more people watching the same PPV. I personally saw Pacquaio vs Hatton around 20 Pinoys. MMA does not create national heroes, Cain with Mexico mouthpiece sold 380k PPV against Bigfoot.
You're putting the cart before the horse on the whole "national heroes" argument. The reason boxing is deeply ingrained is not that the stars are national heroes, but rather boxers become national heroes through success at a sport that's already deeply ingrained. Soccer has been creating national heroes for hundreds of years, baseball has for about a hundred, football for 60 or so. It takes a long time for biases to wear off over the scope of whole societies, even in the information age. Rogan may have jumped the gun to imagine the takeover was happening so quickly, but I think he's right to assume that an unbiased person is more likely to choose a more diverse combat sport. The mistake he made was a failure to recognize that, at the time of his interview, the oldest of the people that would lack a cultural and longevity based bias favoring boxing were barely out of diapers. Phone Post

" boxers become national heroes through success at a sport that's already deeply ingrained"

that's not true, the sport doesn't have do been deeply ingrained in a a country to create heroes. Look at Anderson Silva for instance, a hero overnight in Brazil without MMA ever being mainstream there. GSP in Canada, same thing. Minorities aren't sport fans, they're fans of one of their own winning. When you have a star, then the sport is successful. The UFC has failed and build up stars of the magnitude of boxing up to this point.
9/21/13 2:32 PM
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HoldYerGround
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JudOWNED - Haven't read this whole thread, but would be interesting to see the comparison between total UFC (or even MMA) PPV buys in a year, versus total boxing PPV buys in a year. Would also be interesting to see a comparison of "free" MMA events vs "free" boxing events, both in number of events as well as ratings they pulled.

Either way, my enjoyment of MMA has nothing to do with whether or not it is "swallowing" or killing boxing. But it is cool to have seen the sport grow so much and so fast within such a relatively short time. That people even bother to compare it to boxing, which has been around in it's current form for over a hundred years, is pretty amazing.
This.

Net UFC ppv buys a year vs. net boxing

Net free UFC viewership vs. its counterpart as well.

Everything else is speculation Phone Post
9/21/13 3:15 PM
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tenchu
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MMA is taking over in the US.

Here are some US popularity STATISTICS. A recent 2013 US fan avidity combat sports survey by Scarborough shows that fan avidity for UFC and boxing is pretty close overall.

Boxing has the UFC beat in the older demographics. But UFC has boxing beat in the younger demographics. This is significant, as this demographic trend supports a bigger, sustainable growth for MMA.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2013/04/22/In-Depth/Fight-fan-avidity.aspx
9/21/13 3:59 PM
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Mojo514
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the UFC aint goin nowhere, its only gonna keep growin
9/21/13 4:05 PM
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EatonBeever
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RockyBullwinkle - 
MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ -  5 million is most a ufc fighter made. Phone Post

It's sad to think how many boxers have made more than that in the last 12 months alone.
Mayweather $41 mil plus ppv which might bring it up to $100 mil (and $32 mil his last fight)
Canelo Alvazez $5 mil plus ppv bonus for minimum $12 mil and maybe up to $20 mil
Manny Pacquiao $22 mil guaranteed plus ppv bonus that brought it up to $30 mil
Juan Miguel Marquez $6 mil
Chavez JR $3 mil plus ppv bonus which brought it up to estimated $5-6 mil

And next month we have
Wladimir Klitchko $17.5 mil
Alexander Povetkin $5.8 mil
Tyson Fury $7.5 mil
Daid Haye $7.5 mil

That's at least 9 boxers that have made more than any UFC fighter ever in the 13 months.And there's probably a couple dozen more I can rap off that have made around a mil or more during that time.


UFC fighters make pennies, the bulk of the profit goes to UFC, not the fighters.    Gustaffson, great record , he wont be getting a million for his fight tonight.  Canelo, who is similar to Gustaffson (great record, hasnt fought too many 'big fights', no mainstream) got 20 million.

9/21/13 4:09 PM
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Josh_underground
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EatonBeever -
2013 UFC PPV numbers

UFC 156 'Aldo vs. Edgar - 330k

UFC 157 'Rousey vs. Carmouche' - 450k

UFC 158 'GSP vs. Diaz' - 950k <----Dream Match, Diaz a Superstar. GSP a Superstar...Hence the big ppv #'s

UFC 159 'Jones vs. Sonnen' - 550k

UFC 160 'Cain vs. Bigfoot 2' - 380k <---This was a HW championship fight which is suppose to be the biggest fights of them all, and yet lowest ppv buyrate.  Pathetic UFC cant even promote a HW champion.....

UFC 161 'Henderson vs. Evans' - 180k

UFC 162 'Anderson vs. Weidman' - 550k

UFC 163 'Aldo vs. Korean Zombie' - 170k
 
 
We are toward the end of the year and these numbers are MUCH lower than the previous 5 years.  I know there is a rumor UFC is for sale which is probably untrue, but if the UFC is on the decline which it is, I can def see Zuffa cashing in on its popularity before it dies off like pro wrestling of 90's.
 
I have no problem with what you're saying. Except for the GSP vs nick Diaz being star vs star. GSP could fight a box and he would pull great PPV buys. Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 4:17 PM
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tenchu
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Remember when boxing was more popular? People laughed at MMA being a threat. Things have changed in the US... and in a relatively short amount of time.

Could the same happen globally?

People like Eaton Beaver are worried.
9/21/13 4:22 PM
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CaliKush
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RockyBullwinkle -
CaliKush - I think annually the global population watched more mma than boxing Phone Post 3.0

I really doubt that. UFC draws more on network tv compared to cable in the US and big numbers in Brazil, but Mayweather-Canelo just did a 75 share (21 mil homes) in Mexico, Klitchko-Povetkins fight will draw huge, huge numbers all across Europe. Probably over 100 mil. And Zou Shiming drew an audience of 300 mil in China. Boxing even outdraws MMA in Japan now.
Oh, gotcha Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 4:30 PM
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Hikikomori
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Member Since: 11/23/11
Posts: 2202
mma is too expensive for the average person to pick up. boxing is dirt cheap and free in many countries for young kids to get into. martinez had 80k show up to his fight in argentina. boxing is cultural. i dont think mma will ever have that feeling outside of brazil or connor mcgregar.

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