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UnderGround Forums >> Rogan still believe UFC is "Swallowing" Boxing ?


9/21/13 1:02 AM
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liquidmuse3
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Did the guy just say Mike Tyson is in no one's top 50 ever? Do me a favour, go online, google "best boxers" of all time, look at the top 10 lists, & tell me Tyson isn't in everyone's top 5-10.
9/21/13 1:13 AM
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LostInPeteCarrollsBlueEyes
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liquidmuse3 - Did the guy just say Mike Tyson is in no one's top 50 ever? Do me a favour, go online, google "best boxers" of all time, look at the top 10 lists, & tell me Tyson isn't in everyone's top 5-10.

This is how you can tell casual fans apart from legit boxing fans.

Tyson is in the casual fans top 10 no doubt. To actual boxing fans the guy has a hard time finding a spot in the top 50.

in before Prime Tyson beats God.
9/21/13 1:41 AM
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pharochuck
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liquidmuse3 - Did the guy just say Mike Tyson is in no one's top 50 ever? Do me a favour, go online, google "best boxers" of all time, look at the top 10 lists, & tell me Tyson isn't in everyone's top 5-10.
He said p4p and Tyson isn't in a lot of writers top 10 for heavies, he simply never beat anyone good. Dodged bowe, mercer, foreman. Lot of good heavies in the 90's and Tyson's management avoided them like the plague. Only stepped in against Holyfield because they thought he was shot Phone Post 3.0
9/21/13 1:54 AM
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pursuitofhappiness
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If the UFC did 4 shows a year and just stacked them all every time with GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Chael Sonnen, Cain, Jose Aldo they'd smash PPV records. They're actually building a sport though. Enjoy your next boxing match in 4 months. oh and know in the back of your mind that any average college wrestler MMA fighter or BJJ purple belt could whoop your fav boxers ass in a real fight.
9/21/13 1:59 AM
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pursuitofhappiness
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And on a side note: How many PPV's does the UFC sell compared to boxing per year? Not even including all the free fights.
9/21/13 2:33 AM
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man meets fate
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liquidmuse3 - Did the guy just say Mike Tyson is in no one's top 50 ever? Do me a favour, go online, google "best boxers" of all time, look at the top 10 lists, & tell me Tyson isn't in everyone's top 5-10.
Lol no real boxing fans have tyson in there top 10. He was a paper champion that beat no one outside of a fossil larey Holmes and cruiserweight Michael spinks.

Tyson got the rep he did for his violent fights, not for what he accomplished, cause he hasn't accomplished anything Phone Post
9/21/13 2:39 AM
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BJJkilla
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boxing will just find it's next undefeated star once mayweather retires. you got guys like andre ward who will be the face of boxing soon. even someone like adrien broner can possibly sell a fight like floyd once he starts fighting better competition.
9/21/13 2:49 AM
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man meets fate
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pursuitofhappiness - And on a side note: How many PPV's does the UFC sell compared to boxing per year? Not even including all the free fights.
Difference is boxing never losses money on there ppvs cause they know who draws and doesn't. 165k and 170k for the last ufc is not a success.

The gsp vs diaz card, they put a lot of work into that and put the right fights and it showed, I wish they got that extra 100k to make it 1 million buys but just came up short.

That's the thing with ufc though, you never know what to expect. Boxing, we know the moment a floyd or paquaio fight is made its guarenteed 1mil+ buys

If they stepped up the gear with promoting the last two ppvs of the year, there is no doubt one of those should be atleast 1mil+ buys.

Bur you never know with gsp or anderson. At Times they pulll in big numbers, then a lot of other times they don't.

Fact is 12-14 ppvs a year is not smart. You are going to get a lot more shit buys than good ones most of the time, and that's how its been so far this year.

If one of those two last cards for this year don't break the millions there is something seriously wrong Phone Post
9/21/13 3:47 AM
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AndersonSilvasMoney
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


Why are you arbitrarily only looking at everything above 500K? Here are the average UFC PPV buys per year since 2006:

2006: 527
2007: 447.63
2008: 528.75
2009: 616.92
2010: 522.69
2011: 398.46
2012 448.84
2013: 480

(in thousands)
(Source: http://mmapayout.com/blue-book/pay-per-view/)

If you take out the outlier of UFC 100 in 2009 (1.6 million) then 2009 is about 535K on average. Since 2011 (UFC's low point in terms of buys) the trend has been steadily upwards, but hasn't crested its peak (2009). This data includes Jung-Aldo but not Bendo-Pettis since I don't think those numbers are out yet.
9/21/13 3:52 AM
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AndersonSilvasMoney
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I'd add that it's conceivable for UFC to make it above 500K average buyrate this year with good turnouts from Bendo-Pettis, Velasquez-Dos Santos, GSP-Hendricks, and Weidman-Silva II.
9/21/13 5:04 AM
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AndersonSilvasMoney
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I did this in a spreadsheet for a thread last month. I'll double check. Phone Post
9/21/13 5:17 AM
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crsjedi1
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crsjedi1 -

emm...boxing is still huge in the latino and european markets, and as such the u.f.c "mma" is still were it was in 1996 in those markets as it was in the united states in that yr, understand the growth of the sport of mma in the united states since 2000, and ask yourself the growth potiential in those markets in the next 20 yrs? Now how many latinos are currently still huge boxing fans?? and of course last saturdays snooze fest did those numbers, they marketed that fight to the latino fan base beautifully , not to mention floyd is prolly the best heal in the history of boxing "who doesnt want to see him lose?" Personally i grew up a boxing freak living in vegas i loved boxing , but it is what it is, the days of Barrera vs. morales, taylor vs.chavez ,,delahoya vs. quartey,hagler vs.hearns, and shit what heavyweight divison ? are done man,the writing is on the wall however painfully slow it is,its like a novelty now, how many great fights do you get with the u.f.c every fkn yr?? look at programing if boxing was still the shit why isnt it on fox,fuel,fx, spike etc?? what happend to the contender?? boxing is evolving into the sport of mma,just like wrestling,jiujitsu,muythai etc..boxing is fkn boring compared to the sport of mma, ask yourself this how many boxing gyms are there nationwide? how many mma gyms,jiujitsu? how bout the spark of popularity in wrestling ?? stop a 16 yr old and ask him ,yup everyone knows floyd, but beyond that, do they know who brandon rios is? adrien "im a bonehead"broner? bernard hopkins? do they? resistance is futile.

 

Ummm first because hbo and showtime pay out the ass for boxing? I don't know why u listed fuel has a main station when no one gives a shit or even know fuel exist.

And yes people do know who hopkins, rios and broner is, if they didn't then broner wouldn't get big numbers.

Let me ask you this, does anyone know who the fuck john mayorga is? This guy who has been stuck on prelims now is in the main event on live tv?

I really don't know why you said hopkins when he is a legend in the sport. That's like telling mma fans that no one knows who randy couture is.

Boxing will always be their cause there is still world wide people who want to see the science.

How can you sit there and laugh at someone who wants to see a floyd mayweather fight and try to tell them they should enjoy someone like anderson who is just a low amatuer bum version of roy jones jr?

Your basically telling people to like mma over boxing cause even though you get low level boxing in mma, you got a couple of guys who can throw decent leg kicks and you get a added bonus in bjj.

So people should be forced to like mma fighters horrible hands over boxing cause they get the ground game?


That's kind of stupid if you ask me. Phone Post

no what i said was ask your average 16 yr old if they know who those people are and the answer i bet 9x outta 10 is no,ask that same 16 yr old if they know who the ufc champs are and im willing to bet the house 9x outta 1o the answer is yes,and i was just showing you that the coverage of ufc programming is greater than boxing? and no im not laughing at anyone who enjoys the sport of boxing , what im saying imo is that the ufc product is more exciting than the current shit boxing matches.

9/21/13 5:31 AM
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Mexican Janitor
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. Phone Post
9/21/13 6:02 AM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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Ok 5 million is most a ufc made. Chump change compared to boxing. Also, dont fool yourself its all about $. Phone Post
9/21/13 6:02 AM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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5 million is most a ufc fighter made. Phone Post
9/21/13 6:36 AM
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AndersonSilvasMoney
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RockyBullwinkle - 
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


Why are you arbitrarily only looking at everything above 500K? Here are the average UFC PPV buys per year since 2006:

2006: 527
2007: 447.63
2008: 528.75
2009: 616.92
2010: 522.69
2011: 398.46
2012 448.84
2013: 480

(in thousands)
(Source: http://mmapayout.com/blue-book/pay-per-view/)

If you take out the outlier of UFC 100 in 2009 (1.6 million) then 2009 is about 535K on average. Since 2011 (UFC's low point in terms of buys) the trend has been steadily upwards, but hasn't crested its peak (2009). This data includes Jung-Aldo but not Bendo-Pettis since I don't think those numbers are out yet.

You sure your numbers are accurate? For 15 PPVs in 2010 I got 585k avg and so for this year it's 438k for the first 8 PPVs based on those MMApayout numbers.

Yeah, I must've made some data entry mistakes. I re-did the spreadsheet and got the following numbers:

2013: 441.25
2012: 448.85
2011: 405.31
2010: 587
2009: 616.92
2008: 527.08
2007: 448.6
2006: 527

Not much changes, though this year is so far pacing worse than 2012 ended. That said, there are at least two PPVs coming up that will draw big numbers (Weidman-Silva II and GSP-Hendricks). If Velasquez-Dos Santos III, JBJ-Gus, and Bendo-Pettis don't tank, 2013 should be able to end as a marginal improvement over 2012.

No denying there has been a steep drop off since 2010. It's going to take some work for UFC to get back to 2008-2010 levels. That said, the UFC to be crawling back. The two sub-200K numbers this year definitely killed the average, though.
9/21/13 7:35 AM
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georgejonesjr
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Silverball - When MMA pay improves, the sport will attract the best athletes, who will have trained for MMA specifically from a much younger age...like boxing, and every other professional sport of note. When that happens, MMA will maybe swallow boxing. The questions is, how far off in the future are we talking?

I'd guess about the same time football swallows basketball or hockey or baseball.

Most sports fans watch more than one kind of sport. Its really not a zero sum game, MMA and boxing will co-exist as well as football and baseball, basketball and hockey.

If anything, I think MMA is making a number of sports (wrestling for sure, but also judo and BJJ, and yes, boxing too) more popular among young folks than they were before. The local boxing club has said that they're seeing more guys coming to train (initially to cross train for MMA, then often staying) than they had for awhile, and a lot of these guys have turned into fans of boxing in general - they watch both boxing and MMA.

Sports just aren't a zero sum game. You only have to turn to the sports forums and see how many pro sport leagues there are to see that.

Football, baseball, basketball, and hockey all require different skill sets and physical attributes, which is one of the reasons that one doesn't "swallow" the rest. In addition, the pay for NBA, NFL, and MLB guarantees that the level of athlete entering these sports is as high level as we are currently capable of producing in this country, starting at pee wee and pop warner levels, then high school, college, etc. The process of weeding out the best of the best.

That said, those three sports in particular have had a huge effect on boxing, just look at the state of of amateur boxing today, and compare that to amateur boxing prior to the Magic, Bird, Jordan eras of basketball. That drop off in level of athlete, and competition is the reason why people, like Rogan, question the longevity of boxing, in spite of evens like last Saturday's two million sales pay per view Mayweather fight. I didn't say that MMA would swallow boxing, I said it's a maybe, in the future, but co-exist it might. The real threat to boxing is not MMA, but continues to be the NBA and the NFL.

I'd argue that the game play between boxing and MMA is different enough that neither will swallow the other - the gap between pure striking and striking/grappling (ie MMA) is large enough that you hear the boo's from many fans whenever a fight hits the grounds. When was the last time you heard boo's from an NFL crowd whenever a team ran the ball instead of passing it because it was considered boring?

But its an interesting argument, and we're going to have to watch to see. So far I don't see it happening - if anything, world wide boxing is increasing in popularity. And I say this as someone who competed nationally in judo and wrestled in college (ie I'm not biased towards boxing) and just picked up some boxing when I started help coach the grappling portion of MMA.

I personally prefer MMA, but as I've learned more about boxing I've started buying quite a few boxing PPV's, as well as often watching it when televised. There's something fascinating about it (as there is about most popular sports), even when (or sometimes especially when) it turns into a chess match where fighters change tactics trying to take control of the rythm and ring space - that doesn't happen the same way in MMA, because takedowns and using a cage instead of a ring dramatically changes it.

Same thing for pure wrestling (which I also love to watch, but that'll never be popular, grappling takes too much knowledge to appreciate unless you've done some yourself) - its changed dramatically when punches are allowed. But I suspect wrestling (along with judo and BJJ and sambo) will survive as well, though I don't think any of them will ever become spectator sports.
9/21/13 7:39 AM
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Bobby Lupo
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ -  5 million is most a ufc fighter made. Phone Post

And some have argued that it was a boxer: James Toney. I find that hard to believe
9/21/13 7:52 AM
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Joeymarvelous
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Joeymarvelous - 
Jons Forsberg -
Joeymarvelous - 
Jons Forsberg -
Joeymarvelous -  I think most people are ignoring the fact that boxing has had a head start of HUNDREDS of years to build up a fan base. Phone Post

10 years in the facebook/twitter/iphone era > 100 years in radio and black and white TV and newspaper.
True, but only among the demographics most comfortable with modern technology. Old fucks tend to reject new things, including both MMA and digital media. Phone Post

people said boxing fans were old and dying off 10 years ago, it just sold the all time PPV record last week. It's an old easy to debunk fallacy.
Regardless of what was said ten years ago, older people are still less likely to stream things and less likely to understand MMA. Younger fans generally can appreciate BOTH sports, and by having a good number of fans both young and old, boxing is able to capitalize the opportunity and outpace MMA, which is generally limited to the younger audience at present. Phone Post

old people are less likely to stream things but they're more likely to gather families to watch boxing PPV. Minorities gather to watch their national heroes, sometimes 20 or more people watching the same PPV. I personally saw Pacquaio vs Hatton around 20 Pinoys. MMA does not create national heroes, Cain with Mexico mouthpiece sold 380k PPV against Bigfoot.
You're putting the cart before the horse on the whole "national heroes" argument. The reason boxing is deeply ingrained is not that the stars are national heroes, but rather boxers become national heroes through success at a sport that's already deeply ingrained. Soccer has been creating national heroes for hundreds of years, baseball has for about a hundred, football for 60 or so. It takes a long time for biases to wear off over the scope of whole societies, even in the information age. Rogan may have jumped the gun to imagine the takeover was happening so quickly, but I think he's right to assume that an unbiased person is more likely to choose a more diverse combat sport. The mistake he made was a failure to recognize that, at the time of his interview, the oldest of the people that would lack a cultural and longevity based bias favoring boxing were barely out of diapers. Phone Post
9/21/13 8:33 AM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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PPVs that Went over 500k
2008 - 7 PPVs
2009 - 7 PPVs
2010 - 11 PPVs <------ UFC peaked w/ Brock Lesnar
2011 - 3 PPVs
2012 - 5 PPVs
2013 - 3 PPVs

 

Can you UFC fan boys read this ??  You see when you go from 11 ppvs to 3 (granted still three months left for UFC) that break over 500,000 ppv buyrates - that means the numbers are DOWN...

 

.

.

 

Let me repeat that - when you go from 11 to 3 , that means the numbers went down.  Can you guys count ?  No one is 'talking shit about mma on a MMA forum' - we are discussing a rebuttal and facts to Joe Rogan's idiot statement about UFC swallowing Boxing, which as a fan of both sports, highly embarassing to be supporting MMA when the main commentator is saying stupid shit like that.


10 of the top 15 ppvs of 2012 were from the UFC, 4 were from boxing and 3 of those were from Floyd or Pac. Take away boxings biggest stars and people stop watching. People will watch UFC regardless because the brand and sport is bigger than the fighters and in boxing it is the opposite.
9/21/13 8:35 AM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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liquidmuse3 - Did the guy just say Mike Tyson is in no one's top 50 ever? Do me a favour, go online, google "best boxers" of all time, look at the top 10 lists, & tell me Tyson isn't in everyone's top 5-10.
Lol no real boxing fans have tyson in there top 10. He was a paper champion that beat no one outside of a fossil larey Holmes and cruiserweight Michael spinks.

Tyson got the rep he did for his violent fights, not for what he accomplished, cause he hasn't accomplished anything Phone Post

Most disagree with you, they just see Tyson as someone who let drugs and women and mental issues destroy his career. When Gus had him on the straight and narrow he was a tornado. If he retired after he beat Spinks, before he went berserk with drinking and drugs etc he would easily be a top 5 all time fighter
9/21/13 8:36 AM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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Cus not Gus
9/21/13 8:42 AM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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Edited: 09/21/13 8:42 AM
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Also put this into context, at the time Boxing guys were saying UFC was a fad and the fighters weren't that talented, comparing them to glorified bar fighters. Rogan was a lot more right about boxing than those guys were about MMA
9/21/13 8:44 AM
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man meets fate
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man meets fate - 
liquidmuse3 - Did the guy just say Mike Tyson is in no one's top 50 ever? Do me a favour, go online, google "best boxers" of all time, look at the top 10 lists, & tell me Tyson isn't in everyone's top 5-10.
Lol no real boxing fans have tyson in there top 10. He was a paper champion that beat no one outside of a fossil larey Holmes and cruiserweight Michael spinks.

Tyson got the rep he did for his violent fights, not for what he accomplished, cause he hasn't accomplished anything Phone Post

Most disagree with you, they just see Tyson as someone who let drugs and women and mental issues destroy his career. When Gus had him on the straight and narrow he was a tornado. If he retired after he beat Spinks, before he went berserk with drinking and drugs etc he would easily be a top 5 all time fighter
Not any of my boxing fans or people I spoke boxung with has them in there top 50.

Go to a boxing site and say he is a top 20, let alone top 10 and everyone will laugh. Phone Post
9/21/13 8:45 AM
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man meets fate
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Mean friends not fans lol Phone Post

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