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UnderGround Forums >> Rener: Royce is right about BJJ only, and wrong


9/23/13 5:41 PM
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shaqitup
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Heel Hooker - Rener is right about MMA and Royce is right about a real fight one on one with no rules.

howso?

How does a BJJ fighter beat a strong wrestler with good hands without good wrestling themself?

 

THey get knocked out after humping a leg for a few minutes.

9/23/13 7:09 PM
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MMAdotCOM
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also i think it's clear the gracies need to move beyond trying to be champions in mma with pure bjj and pursue the anti-bullying angle. i think that could be monumentally huge on a national level but i'm afraid it would lead to mcdojos
9/23/13 7:16 PM
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Trane
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Edited: 09/23/13 7:28 PM
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Sakuraba/Royce 1 proved that it's not the rules that's hampering the Gracies from success.

Feed any of the Gracies to today's UFC champs under no-time limit, no rounds Gracie style rules and see what happens, they'll still get smashed.

MMA has evolved, Gracies fell behind because they've been one-dimensional for too long.
9/23/13 8:10 PM
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Rudi
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KOdClowning -
shaqitup - 
Heel Hooker - Rener is right about MMA and Royce is right about a real fight one on one with no rules.

howso?

How does a BJJ fighter beat a strong wrestler with good hands without good wrestling themself?

 

THey get knocked out after humping a leg for a few minutes.


Flying Armbar, Standing Guillotine, Pull guard-Sweep-Submission , HeelHook, toe hold
How often does the flying armbar happens? Phone Post
9/23/13 8:28 PM
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HULC
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Trane - Sakuraba/Royce 1 proved that it's not the rules that's hampering the Gracies from success.

Feed any of the Gracies to today's UFC champs under no-time limit, no rounds Gracie style rules and see what happens, they'll still get smashed.

MMA has evolved, Gracies fell behind because they've been one-dimensional for too long.

I'm not so sure. Fighters today set themselves a work rate that they hope will win decisions, knowing that there is a time limit in place. A fighter doing everything they can to conserve energy and avoid damage could survive long enough and then switch it on when the other guy is fatigued.

Minor rule changes can make big differences.

9/23/13 8:48 PM
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PrettyBoy
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Trane - Sakuraba/Royce 1 proved that it's not the rules that's hampering the Gracies from success.

Feed any of the Gracies to today's UFC champs under no-time limit, no rounds Gracie style rules and see what happens, they'll still get smashed.

MMA has evolved, Gracies fell behind because they've been one-dimensional for too long.
This is technically the course of all TMA's. You preach the gospel of your style until it becomes a dogma then when it gets made secondary in live competition you move the goalpost to validate why your style does not seem as effective as it should.

Stand up TMA styles of old had to move the goal post to account for why they didn't dominate boxing and kickboxing.

Now BJJ guys have to move the goal posts for MMA.

The more well rounded guy will beat a straight up traditional BJJ guy. Jon Jones is a Gracie Barra white belt. Yet there is some kind of figment of imagination that only your opponent tires in a real fight and the BJJ guy will not. It's just not true. Matt Hughes could have stayed back mounted on Royce till the end of time.

BJJ needs to either just become its own specialized sport as Carlos Gracie JR has made it. Or drastically evolve if it wants to survive as a complete style. Phone Post 3.0
9/23/13 8:57 PM
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Trane
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PrettyBoy - 
Trane - Sakuraba/Royce 1 proved that it's not the rules that's hampering the Gracies from success.

Feed any of the Gracies to today's UFC champs under no-time limit, no rounds Gracie style rules and see what happens, they'll still get smashed.

MMA has evolved, Gracies fell behind because they've been one-dimensional for too long.
This is technically the course of all TMA's. You preach the gospel of your style until it becomes a dogma then when it gets made secondary in live competition you move the goalpost to validate why your style does not seem as effective as it should.

Stand up TMA styles of old had to move the goal post to account for why they didn't dominate boxing and kickboxing.

Now BJJ guys have to move the goal posts for MMA.

The more well rounded guy will beat a straight up traditional BJJ guy. Jon Jones is a Gracie Barra white belt. Yet there is some kind of figment of imagination that only your opponent tires in a real fight and the BJJ guy will not. It's just not true. Matt Hughes could have stayed back mounted on Royce till the end of time.

BJJ needs to either just become its own specialized sport as Carlos Gracie JR has made it. Or drastically evolve if it wants to survive as a complete style. Phone Post 3.0

Good post, VU.
9/23/13 8:59 PM
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mijo
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Stephen Eakin - A prime Dan Severn wouldn't have ever lost a 3x5 fighy Phone Post 3.0
Rener would have just said a prime Ken Shamrock. Phone Post 3.0
9/23/13 9:17 PM
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mdrndaysamurai
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Rener says nothing incorrect. BJJ literally has an answer for standing, clinching, avoiding strikes, escaping the bottom, finishing, everything. it IS a complete martial art, regardless of what the haters say (or the incomplete bjj your local academies teach). are you going to learn to be a ko artist?? of course not, that's not the point. the point will always be to set up your subs with the strikes.

MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY, MINIMUM EFFORT.
9/23/13 9:19 PM
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mdrndaysamurai
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Koga - "They can close the distance, they can neutralize strikes and effectively neutralize the opponent. And in that sense, Royce is right, all you need in jiu-jitsu." What about a wrestler who does a takedown and stays in side control, takes no damage and does not get submitted? Can't happen now with standups for inactivity from a dominant position.

A lot of the rules in mma are against wrestlers, not bjj guys. See Mark Kerr in his first mma event smashing Fabio Gurgel, one of the most accomplished bjj guys ever to fight mma, with headbuts.

a wrestler that just takes you down will not be able to keep you in side control if you are at least as efficient at bjj as he is wrestling. you don't have to wrestle to escape side control.
9/23/13 9:59 PM
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Trane - Sakuraba/Royce 1 proved that it's not the rules that's hampering the Gracies from success.

Feed any of the Gracies to today's UFC champs under no-time limit, no rounds Gracie style rules and see what happens, they'll still get smashed.

MMA has evolved, Gracies fell behind because they've been one-dimensional for too long.

Royce did break his leg in that fight early,not sayn he would have won .sakuraba can fight (legend) just sayn Royce did well with a broken leg
9/23/13 11:33 PM
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mdrndaysamurai
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DanTheWolfman - That prelim Brazilian strong Guy fought a perfect old school Brazilian Judo game the way Carlson had intended, neutralized and controlled the striker.

That is Judo Post Mifune, Brazilian Judo, Lutra Livre, Wrestling, Catch Wrestling. That is effective Grappling.

Just saying their is big diff. to me between Carlson BJJ/BTT lineage, and Helio/Royce type lineage methodology, physical attributes and way of fighting. America got to know the Helio/Royce un-athletic side because of family political money reasons etc. & Royce babysat Rorion's kids and helped teach Garage days. Had Rickson fought UFC 1-5 not Royce things would have been different.

Maybe the Ju in Jiu-jitsu really wasn't there all along, until skinny sickly Helio in all respects.

Which art is better for the masses for self-defense one can argue. Which one is better for athletic strong guys is pretty obvious. Being on top in control is always better, while still being able to conserve energy and fight economically from the bottom only IF NEED BE.

Look at how Athletic Rickson fought all his NHB Fights?
Now, Ralek fought great against Sakuraba, positional top game desired BJJ just like Rickson.

Thoughts? I don't mean any dis-respect, but to provoke thought on the subject

i know i've been bagging on you alot, but this is a great post. however, whoever said that bjj means you play from the bottom??? bjj gives an answer to the bottom, it never encourages it. it not only tries to give the smaller guy a chance from the bottom, but also a chance from the top (and a way to get there and stay there). rickson fought his fights with more athleticism because he was more athletic than royce, nothing more. but, isn't that the point? leveling the playing field with technique?
9/24/13 5:42 PM
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Wade Garrett
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I would like to say that the Sakuraba that fought Ralek Gracie had quite a few years and miles on him compared to the Sak who threw down with Renzo, Royler, and Royce (first time).

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