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UnderGround Forums >> Roger responds to Royce Gracie criticism


10/5/13 5:32 PM
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It is widely held that MMA has developed from its Vale Tudo origins, drawing now from striking, BJJ, and above all, from wrestling. The Gracie family has been sometimes faulted for not keeping up with the changes in the sport.

However, in an interview with MMA Fighting's Guilherme Cruz, UFC Hall of Famer Royce Gracie took a contrarian sstance, arguing that the reason Gracie family fighters are not doing well is actually because they are cross training. The interview followed Roger Gracie's one-sided, three-round decision loss to Tim Kennedy, in a fight that saw Kennedy land 54 of 92 punches thrown, while Roger landed just 12 of 29.

"Jiu-jitsu is enough," said Royce. "I’ve trained boxing in the past to learn the distance, trained wrestling to understand how he would take me down, but I won’t get there to fight my opponent’s game. The guys from the family want to complement their game, like if jiu-jitsu was incomplete. I guess they forgot a little about history."

"Roger, like any other member of the family, is trying to learn wrestling, boxing. I believe in pure jiu-jitsu. That’s what I’ve done in the past. You have to go back to your roots and train Gracie jiu-jitsu."

Contacted by Cruz, Roger offered a defense that in part agreed with Royce.

"If you see my last fight, I only threw two punches in the whole fight," Roger told Cruz.

"If there’s something that I did do in that fight was jiu-jitsu, but I got tired and couldn’t do what I was planning to do. But that’s his opinion, right?"

What do you think UG? Do you still beleve in pure jiu-jitsu?


10/5/13 5:37 PM
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Gomrad
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Gracie JJ can not make you a better athlete... Phone Post 3.0
10/5/13 5:42 PM
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diggity
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Gomrad - Gracie JJ can not make you a better athlete... Phone Post 3.0
Hey gonad, it can certainly make you a more skilled athlete. Phone Post 3.0
10/5/13 5:44 PM
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GelderdEnd
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There's a reason the Gracie's keep losing fights....they haven't evolved, either move with the times or things will only get worse Phone Post 3.0
10/5/13 6:06 PM
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pheonix5
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Pure Jiu Jitsu didn't help him against Matt Hughes. I respect the hell out of Royce, but the sport has changed. Contradictory to his statement, he has stated before that he trained boxing when preparing for a fight. Not to knock anyone out but to be able to avoid getting ko'd, but still, he trained boxing. Here's a decent interview where he references boxing and striking at 8:16

10/5/13 6:21 PM
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pheonix5
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.

10/5/13 6:21 PM
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Gomrad
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Gomrad - Gracie JJ can not make you a better athlete... Phone Post 3.0
Hey gonad, it can certainly make you a more skilled athlete. Phone Post 3.0
Lol I haven't heard that one since middle school....

Royce fought in an era against opponents who couldn't grapple for shit and were not near the level of athletic ability Roger has to face even vs lower / mid tier UCF level fighters.... Phone Post 3.0
10/5/13 6:23 PM
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Gomrad
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Many GJJ disciples have been conned into thinking it makes then immortal... As long as the pay their $200 a month to rassle in pajamas Phone Post 3.0
10/5/13 6:33 PM
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pheonix5
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KingofBJJ - 

No MMA did not have its origins in Vale Tudo.  Vale Tudo is what MMA is now, but not what the UFC began with.  The UFC began with discipline vs discipline and slowly mixed all of the styles together over time.

If MMA devloped from Vale tudo, then that is what we would have seen in UFC 1.

I sick and tire of people with only a limited knowledge of the sport making ridiculous claimed "facts" about these things.


Vale Tudo means No Rules and that is what UFC started out as. It added rules and gloves later on to be more accepted by the community and eventually a legalized sport.

 

From an article

"In the early 20th Century a side show event at Brazilian carnivals and festivals was gaining popularity. Known as "Vale Tudo" or "No Rules", these were combat contests that pitted two men against each other in a ring or open space for the entertainment of on-lookers.

These Vale Tudo matches are direct ancestors to modern Mixed Martial Arts matches and many in Brazil still refer MMA as Vale Tudo. These matches were not a sport as MMA is today; there were no promotions, weight classes or championships, and fighters represented their styles and their schools more so than just themselves."
10/5/13 7:05 PM
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ranier wolfcastle
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i think we'd all agree prime 185 royce vs 185 roger in mma = roger wins

10/5/13 7:09 PM
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shark tank
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Relson always says that Royce went to shit and started losing when he started practicing "karate."
10/5/13 7:24 PM
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Truemanc3
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The fight will change when the time is longer and you don't have to please the fans.

If you just want to see a winner in a no time limit fight then the technical endurance guys will come through.

The trouble with MMA is it is a sport for sprinters and not marathon runners.

If you are an explosive athlete with good wrestling and some JJ and MT then you are going to do well in MMA.
10/5/13 8:56 PM
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diggity - 
Gomrad - Gracie JJ can not make you a better athlete... Phone Post 3.0
Hey gonad, it can certainly make you a more skilled athlete. Phone Post 3.0


10/5/13 8:57 PM
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ranier wolfcastle - 

i think we'd all agree prime 185 royce vs 185 roger in mma = roger wins


No. we do not agree.

10/5/13 9:21 PM
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jonnyjitsu uktt
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Pure bjj is nowhere near enough these days.
I am a massive bjj nuthugger too. Games moved on. Phone Post 3.0
10/5/13 9:28 PM
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Lehman
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It's impossible these days to focus on pure BJJ or GJJ and be extremely successful. BJJ isn't as much as a secret as it was during Royce's time. Wrestlers are developing better submission defense and skills. When the ground game is neutral, other skills have to be available. Phone Post 3.0
10/5/13 9:52 PM
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Zomby
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http://www.fightreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/matt-hughes_royce-gracie.gif

blue please?
10/5/13 9:57 PM
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rockyrocks90
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Truemanc3 - The fight will change when the time is longer and you don't have to please the fans.

If you just want to see a winner in a no time limit fight then the technical endurance guys will come through.

The trouble with MMA is it is a sport for sprinters and not marathon runners.

If you are an explosive athlete with good wrestling and some JJ and MT then you are going to do well in MMA.

You will ALWAYS have to please fans. ALWAYS otherwise there is no revenue, no participants. No time limit fights will end up like Royce/Sakaraba two tired guys throwing tired strikes going for tired take downs neither of them having strength to finish the other.
10/5/13 10:06 PM
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Bry Bry
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with the Gracies alot of it has to do with there lack of athleticism..as good as Rickson was he would have started to have a very tough time from ufc 8 on when guys like Don frye and ruas started...these guys would have easily avoided his terrible takedowns and beat him up..Roger Gracie is similar, great bjj but his takedowns are terrible and his strength/speed is always less than his oppts..
10/5/13 10:25 PM
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pheonix5
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I would like to see extended time MMA fights, maybe two 10 minute rounds or one 15 minute round and one 10 minute round. It would be interesting to see how the sport changes. The percentage of submissions would go up and the fighters,especially wrestler/GnP guys, would have to be mindful of their energy expenditure.

10/5/13 11:32 PM
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rockyrocks90
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pheonix5 - 

I would like to see extended time MMA fights, maybe two 10 minute rounds or one 15 minute round and one 10 minute round. It would be interesting to see how the sport changes. The percentage of submissions would go up and the fighters,especially wrestler/GnP guys, would have to be mindful of their energy expenditure.


My guess is you would see a lot more bad kickboxing matches at least for the better part of the rounds but the worst thing that would happen is Fighter A gets a take down and scrambles to fighter Bs back and then holds that position for 15 minutes.
10/6/13 2:34 AM
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diggity
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Gomrad -
diggity -
Gomrad - Gracie JJ can not make you a better athlete... Phone Post 3.0
Hey gonad, it can certainly make you a more skilled athlete. Phone Post 3.0
Lol I haven't heard that one since middle school....

Royce fought in an era against opponents who couldn't grapple for shit and were not near the level of athletic ability Roger has to face even vs lower / mid tier UCF level fighters.... Phone Post 3.0
Ha ha! Fair enough dude. Thanks. Phone Post 3.0
10/6/13 5:57 AM
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Scythrop
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Royce is, was, and always will be mainly about one thing: marketing the family brand.

His views on this topic have about as much value as the ShamWow guy's views on home maintenance.
10/6/13 6:22 AM
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jcblass
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reviews Royce vs. Matt Hughes for evidence of GJJ..
10/6/13 7:53 AM
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Jasonbaldy
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I am a Gracie BJJ nuthugger and a fan of Royce's early accomplishments. I think it is strange for Royce to state Gracie BJJ is all you need when you saw him training other martial arts and then try and employ that in later MMA fights with ZERO success. He was trying to outbox Hughes and when it went to the ground was destroyed. I still don't see how that happened but I know Hughes is no joke.


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