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BJJGround Forum >> the problem with penalizing the guard pull


10/26/13 11:58 AM
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Osiris_431
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MickColins - Maybe, just maybe, guys should work on their takedowns. Phone Post 3.0
This. Phone Post 3.0
10/26/13 2:28 PM
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tio te
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Rival School - 
Ray Cappa -
Kneeblock - From a spectator perspective, I hate watching BJJers jockey for takedowns, but from a martial arts perspective, if BJJers are sucking at the stand up, there's a fatal flaw in our art. The last generation that included Roger, Jacare, Xande and Marcelo made judo and wrestling a major part of their game and they managed to have exciting matches.
I think rather than penalizing the pull, the solution is to make takedowns count for more points. If there's such a high degree of difficulty in hitting them, they should give you as many points as getting the mount. Allow pulling, but know one TD could completely change the outcome of the match. That rule change would attract more wrestlers and judoka. Phone Post
I like this idea. Phone Post 3.0
At some point some guys wrestling may just cancel each other out. People act like these guy neglect takedowns. That's ridiculous. Phone Post 3.0

I like kneeblock's idea too. I think it's great that ADCC tried something to promote more agressive stand-up. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have worked so well. I think the problem is that it disincentivized the guard pull instead of incentivizing the takedown.

There is a risk in fighting for the takedown. A perfect example is Otavio-Kron. It is also easier to sweep in most cases than to pass. The problem with the negative point rule, IMO, is that it is also pretty easy to stay safe and not get swept from inside someone's guard when you're not trying to agressively pass. So if you're already up one point, than why bother risking too much to get more?

I think making a takedown be worth more than a sweep is a good idea to try. Maybe a takedown can be worth 3 points and a sweep still 2. Also, maybe allow a sweep within 5 seconds of the takedown to count for 3 as well to incentivize aggressive guard pulling and not discourage attempts at sacrifice throws.
10/26/13 3:53 PM
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HoldYerGround
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I don't have a problem with penalizing guard pulling but the way ADCC went about it was all wrong. They basically forced the competitors to have as boring matches as possible.

If you're going to have no point, sub only rules, then do that. If you're going to let players fight for points, then do that. But this half points half no-points bullshit has got to go.

The fact that ADCC refs can watch a player run away for 10 minutes straight and act like "stalling" is a foreign word doesn't help either.

 

I mean, how insane is it that if I sit down WILLINGLY I'm down -1, but if my opponent works hard to take me down he gets no points and its a tie score? Ridiculous. There is simply no incentive whatsoever to engage.  

10/26/13 9:07 PM
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AokiPants
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Osiris_431 -
MickColins - Maybe, just maybe, guys should work on their takedowns. Phone Post 3.0
This. Phone Post 3.0
So much ignorance in this post. These guys drill takedowns/takedown defense all the time in their training camps. Phone Post 3.0
10/26/13 9:49 PM
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Jessy30
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Eddie bravo had a great Idea on joe rogan. Only points for close subs which necessitated being fought out of. No points for anything else. Phone Post
10/26/13 11:15 PM
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armbarseverywhere
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Jessy30 -  Eddie bravo had a great Idea on joe rogan. Only points for close subs which necessitated being fought out of. No points for anything else. Phone Post

I liked his idea too. I thought he was saying there should still be points for sweeps passes and takedowns though.. I also disagree with guard pulling being penalized. What if you know your opponents top game is no match for your guard? Why take away the incentive in trying that out?

These guys really should be trying harder for takedowns though. I know it's A LOT easier said than done, but it really is a necessary part of submission fighting.
10/26/13 11:26 PM
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HoldYerGround
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?Any decent blue or purple belt can takedown the average person on the street. "

Unfortunately not true. Many schools have extremely limited or no takedown sparring whatsoever. They might as well be doing karate katas of some other such nonsense. Phone Post
10/26/13 11:27 PM
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12
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One Point:
> Throw with control on the ground for 3 seconds
> Any reversal that is not a scramble
> Sweeps
> Passing the guard
> Knee on the stomach
> Mount
> Taking the back

Three Points:
> A submission attempt that presents significant danger to the opponent












Scoring - Negative Points:

-1 Point Standing:
>Stalling or keeping the same grip without any offensive action for more than 15 seconds

-1 Point On the Ground:
> Holding the same position for more than 20 seconds without any attack
> Pulling guard

-1 Point At All Times:
> Avoiding the fight
> Running away from the fighting area

Legal Techniques:
> All throws, reversals and sweeps
> All Submissions chokes, arm-locks, knee-locks, heel-hooks, wristlocks, biceps and calf-locks, foot-locks


budo challenge
10/27/13 7:26 AM
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Jessy30
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I like it 12!!! Great set of rules!!!!

And armbarseverywhere, you are right now that I think of it. He was saying that subs should be scored WAY higher than anything else. Phone Post
10/27/13 7:29 AM
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Jessy30
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The only thing I don't like is negative 1 for guard pulling. Phone Post
10/27/13 10:47 AM
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pray for japan
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HoldYerGround - ?Any decent blue or purple belt can takedown the average person on the street. "

Unfortunately not true. Many schools have extremely limited or no takedown sparring whatsoever. They might as well be doing karate katas of some other such nonsense. Phone Post
what percentage of schools dont train takedowns live? can you name some specific schools/affiliations? i just dont believe thats true. if it is, its very unfortunate Phone Post 3.0
10/28/13 6:17 AM
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Shemhazai
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The problem with awarding points (be it one or many) for takedowns is the same as the problem with penalizing the guard pull with a -1; without very strictly enforced stalling rules like those of wrestling and judo, people will wrestle defensively in order not to get taken down, and we will generally only see takedowns in matches where one practitioner is much better in the standup department.

Also, once the fight hits the ground with one guy ahead on points, there will be less action, as the top guy only has to survive in order to win. Meanwhile, Schaub's Law dictates that the onus is on the top player to push the action, as the guard doesn't really work vs. someone not willing to engage it.

If we want to see BJJ played without passivity and conservatism, I don't see any other realistic way than to take away points for actions and award them only for the dominant positions. This way you can't ride a points lead to victory without at least getting in position to submit your opponent, which will force both players to open up and fight more aggressively.
10/28/13 8:22 AM
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Newaza freak
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In any sport when you get the cream of the crop,best of the best ,elite competition to face each other,it's not always going to be fireworks. Phone Post 3.0
10/28/13 8:25 AM
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Newaza freak
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Put two elite boxers against each other
Put two Olympic judokas against eachother
Put two great thai boxers in against eachother. Sometimes they just cancel eachother strongpoints. Phone Post 3.0
10/28/13 8:27 AM
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Newaza freak
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Now put a great boxer in against a hand picked opponent and the crowd just loves the knock out and believes that fighter really comes to fight and is always looking for the knockout. Phone Post 3.0
10/28/13 12:19 PM
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triso
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Osiris_431 - 
MickColins - Maybe, just maybe, guys should work on their takedowns. Phone Post 3.0
This. Phone Post 3.0

My god THIS. So tired of the excuses made by BJJers who don't want to put the effort in for stand up grappling and delude themselves into thinking they are a complete grappler.

Hopefully it forces guys to get better standing up, or to at least set up more realistic guard pulls (which is a legitimate skill).
10/28/13 12:22 PM
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triso
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Edited: 10/28/13 12:43 PM
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Implement stall warnings and stall calls more efficiently (like collegiate wrestling) and force action in the standup portion of the match more. I wouldn't mind stall warnings on the ground as well, where guys who get position or know they have an advantage will sit and hold to get the "win".

Watching two guys play head/hands defense on the feet for 10 minutes or make no attempt to improve position or attempt a submission because they're scared to lose points is getting ridiculous.

The truth is rules need to be put in place and ENFORCED by competent officials to FORCE the action. We are at a point in time where guys are much more wily at gaming the system.
10/28/13 12:38 PM
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triso
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Also, once the fight hits the ground with one guy ahead on points, there will be less action, as the top guy only has to survive in order to win. Meanwhile, Schaub's Law dictates that the onus is on the top player to push the action, as the guard doesn't really work vs. someone not willing to engage it.


I don't understand why the onus should be on the top player? Explain.
10/28/13 6:34 PM
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Stipe
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Kneeblock -  From a spectator perspective, I hate watching BJJers jockey for takedowns, but from a martial arts perspective, if BJJers are sucking at the stand up, there's a fatal flaw in our art. The last generation that included Roger, Jacare, Xande and Marcelo made judo and wrestling a major part of their game and they managed to have exciting matches.
I think rather than penalizing the pull, the solution is to make takedowns count for more points. If there's such a high degree of difficulty in hitting them, they should give you as many points as getting the mount. Allow pulling, but know one TD could completely change the outcome of the match. That rule change would attract more wrestlers and judoka. Phone Post

Ehmm.... Awarding more points for a takedown would only make competitors want to pull guard even more.

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