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UnderGround Forums >> JDS coach: I never considered throwing in towel


10/23/13 10:48 AM
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Junior dos Santos lost to Cain Velasquez Saturday night, taking an extended beating in the process. Many times the cageside doctors checked on JDS, twice at the direction of referee Herb Dean, and allowed the fight to go on. In the third round, Dean came as close as humanly possible to stopping it, even putting his hands on the fighters, but by the most razor thin margin imaginable, he let it go on.

In the fifth round JDS secured a Ninja choke, and it appeared that the greatest comeback in the sport's history might happen. But then dos Santos got dropped on his head, and Dean stepped in.

UFC president Dana White was cageside shouting for the bout to be ended, but he is not in charge, the state regulatory body is.

The doctor, the ref, and the corner all have the ability to stop the fight, and no one did. In fact, in an interview with MMAFighting's Guilherme Cruz, Yuri Carlton, dos Santos’ jiu-jitsu coach, said he never even considered it.

"To be honest, I never considered throwing in the towel," said Carlton. "If something like that ever happens, Luiz Carlos Dorea (boxing coach) would be the one to decide. I was hoping for the knockout all the time. In the fifth round, 'Cigano’ went for that choke. Anything can happen. We see a guy lose the whole fight and then win in the last round. It happens all the time. We're not impressed by blood or anything like that, neither is ‘Cigano’. He always fights for the win, no matter what.

"He always tries that submission in the gym, and he submits a lot of sparring partners here with it. He went for it automatically. Cain Velasquez rolled to defend and ‘Cigano’ felt with his face on the ground and couldn’t fight anymore. But even if he didn’t hit his head on the ground he wouldn’t win anyway, it wouldn’t change the fight. He was already beat. We hoped he could land a good punch even if he was completely tired, but it didn’t happen."

"After the second round, he was fighting in the autopilot mode but he didn’t tell me he thought he lost in the second round. But that’s normal. Sometimes you go out with a punch or a good elbow but keep fighting automatically. That’s normal."

Read entire article...

We don't want a sport where it is normal for fighters to get beat up while in a concussive state, as the long term health implications are tragic. Corners need to weigh short time gain against long term risk and throw the towel in more often.


10/23/13 10:59 AM
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TheEssence
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Pitbull3744 -

Maybe you shouldve so your fighter didnt have to take so much more damage.  I guess JDS wanted it that way and wanted to go out on his shield which is very commendable but that fight probably took a couple years off his fight career.  

. Phone Post
10/23/13 11:03 AM
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Kerouac
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is normal
10/23/13 11:08 AM
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r_o_y
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Edited: 10/23/13 11:09 AM
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Ugh I am really starting to hate this lack of concern for the fighters health. he's acting like this has to do with blood, no this has to do with Velasquez punching the memory right out of dos santos' head. but hey dos santos could still pull of a choke with his mind wiped and face smashed in....so everything is ok.
10/23/13 11:15 AM
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Kentpaul
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Edited: 10/23/13 11:21 AM
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A fighter can only take so many beatings like that before it takes it's toll on him and JDS has had two such beatings inside a year and I doubt physically he will be able too take many more IMO.
10/23/13 11:20 AM
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Devlin
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When he conceads jds was already beat, and completely tired, maybe he should have considered the towel. Phone Post
10/23/13 11:23 AM
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ShawnTheBadger
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Conveniently ducks responsibility.

It's "normal" to be in "autopilot mode" for an extended, prolonged, agonizing period of time?!?  For nearly an entire 5-minute round or more in some cases?  Bullshit.

 

 

10/23/13 12:25 PM
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Billyz
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Um... yea .... no.

He should probably have not continued speaking and just left it at Never considered stopping it/was hoping for a knock out.

Everything else he is saying just makes him sound terrible, For christs sake he concedes that he knew his fighter was already beat yet let him get his ass kicked and take all that unneeded punishment and damage?!?
Really kind of cements the whole argument that this should have been stopped a while ago.
Plus he knew his fighter was fucking out on his feet and was on autopilot and didn't care enough to stop it.
I get that JDS is the gravy train and winning would also be beneficial for his team but this shit just makes me angry.
10/23/13 1:30 PM
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Aaron Becker
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everyone is bitching about this but if jds had knocked cain out in the fourth or fifth round nobody would be bitching about the corner not throwing in the towel
10/23/13 1:40 PM
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DaemonDragon
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Aaron Becker - everyone is bitching about this but if jds had knocked cain out in the fourth or fifth round nobody would be bitching about the corner not throwing in the towel

Indeed.

The thing is these cornermen know how hard these fighters train, and what single each means to that fighter's future.

It is very, very hard to actually throw in the towel if you are a coach. Easy to say someone should have thrown in the towel - but very rarely will you ever see that, even in complete prolonged ass-whoopings.

Because not only might they make the fighter angry, they may also feel guilty that they cheated him out of his full opportunity to win the fight.

And with a guy like Junior it is true that he always has that puncher's chance. So that makes the decision even harder.
10/23/13 1:53 PM
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Il Duce
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Standing in front of your opponent with your hands down, especially at HW, is not intelligent defense. Phone Post 3.0
10/23/13 2:14 PM
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Aaron Becker
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Pitbull3744 - 
Aaron Becker - everyone is bitching about this but if jds had knocked cain out in the fourth or fifth round nobody would be bitching about the corner not throwing in the towel

No one is bitching but you it seems.  We are having a discussion about a fighter who was being beaten pretty badly to the point where he doesnt remember anything past the second round and discussing how that could have possibly been avoided for health reasons.  


is this the first Cain/JDS III discussion you joined? A whole lot of bitching has been going on about the towel not being thrown in this week
10/23/13 2:18 PM
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snookerbank
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Watch griffin and ranches Phone Post
10/23/13 2:32 PM
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ajl416az
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Edited: 10/23/13 2:32 PM
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if you can't muster up the nuts to throw in the towel when the fight is over, you don't belong in the corner

you don't just help your fighter with advice and training. you save them when they are too tough to stop
10/23/13 3:48 PM
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Billyz
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no one denies JDS has a punchers chance later in the fight. The guy is an absolute destroyer and can knock out anyone.
However from a physical stand point and not just of the fight he was in on Saturday, but also the beating he took in the last one less than a year ago cumulative it makes it even worse.

Being in his corner that night the last fight should have been taken into consideration. If the last fight had never happened it still would have been smart to stop it, but considering the damage he took in the last one less than a year ago you have to think about your fighters future and what pride will cost them.

Yea yea he could have landed a lucky punch in the later rounds but that's a gamble with quickly diminishing odds and return the longer you wait for the miracle punch to land.

I have absolutely no cornering experience unless you consider shouting out things to fellow students on the mat at local BJJ tournaments cornering lol.
However I agree with Pat Militech that the coaches should have swallowed their pride and stopped the fight for JDS.
BJ's team did it and saved him no one calls Penn a bitch and no need to see a phenomenal fighter suffer repeated head trauma that can later degrade his life. For christs sake he lost 15 plus minutes of memory if you account the in ring interview he didn't recall either. That's fucking insane all hanging on the edge of hoping he lands a lucky punch?!
He was concussed his corner new it and allowed another 10 plus minutes of fighting with target practice on his head. Not worth it. Rather stop the fight let your fighter recover from less damage and come back for a longer career as there is no way this one didn't shorten it.
I mean fuck if anything stop it after the third and hedge your bet, something along the lines of "Ok If he dosen't land anything in the next round we pull him out so he doesn't keep taking the beating"
10/23/13 4:04 PM
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Melissa
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In the Unified Rules for MMA the referee is the only one allowed to stop the fight, corners are not allowed to throw in the towel.  It's crazy to me that more corners don't know this.

http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#13

See # 13.

10/23/13 4:35 PM
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ausgepicht
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Toxoplasma is a bitch.

Maybe, JDS can thank you when he's older....if his memory loss from concussions and having his head battered unnecessarily allow him to remember who you are.

With friends and coaches like these, who needs enemies? Someone should find a cure for Toxoplasma.

10/23/13 4:51 PM
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ausgepicht
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Edited: 10/23/13 5:04 PM
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Melissa - 

In the Unified Rules for MMA the referee is the only one allowed to stop the fight, corners are not allowed to throw in the towel.  It's crazy to me that more corners don't know this.

http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#13

See # 13.

It's a valid point, but when this topic was brought  up before a few officials posted and said they would unequivocally stop any fight where a corner through in the towel.

 

10/23/13 5:03 PM
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ShawnTheBadger
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ausgepicht - 
Melissa - 

In the Unified Rules for MMA the referee is the only one allowed to stop the fight, corners are not allowed to throw in the towel.  It's crazy to me that more corners don't know this.

http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#13

See # 13.


It's a valid point, but when this topic was brought  up before a few officials posted and said they would unequivocally stop any fight where a croner through in the towel.


Valid indeed, in fact it is bizarre that no mention of "throwing in the towel" is mentioned in the Rules.

I wonder why this apparent "unwritten rule" is not IN the Official Rules?

It's not just the folks on this web-site, it is also DFW and Pat Miletich speaking up in favor of "throwing in the towel" when appropriate.

 

10/23/13 5:06 PM
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ShawnTheBadger - 
ausgepicht - 
Melissa - 

In the Unified Rules for MMA the referee is the only one allowed to stop the fight, corners are not allowed to throw in the towel.  It's crazy to me that more corners don't know this.

http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#13

See # 13.


It's a valid point, but when this topic was brought  up before a few officials posted and said they would unequivocally stop any fight where a croner through in the towel.


Valid indeed, in fact it is bizarre that no mention of "throwing in the towel" is mentioned in the Rules.

I wonder why this apparent "unwritten rule" is not IN the Official Rules?

It's not just the folks on this web-site, it is also DFW and Pat Miletich speaking up in favor of "throwing in the towel" when appropriate.

 


Like Melissa said it's covered in #13:

The referee is the sole arbiter of a contest and is the only individual authorized to stop a contest. The referee may take advice from the ringside physician and/or the Commission with respect to the decision to stop a contest.

10/23/13 5:18 PM
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ajl416az
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ShawnTheBadger - 
ausgepicht - 
Melissa - 

In the Unified Rules for MMA the referee is the only one allowed to stop the fight, corners are not allowed to throw in the towel.  It's crazy to me that more corners don't know this.

http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#13

See # 13.


It's a valid point, but when this topic was brought  up before a few officials posted and said they would unequivocally stop any fight where a croner through in the towel.


Valid indeed, in fact it is bizarre that no mention of "throwing in the towel" is mentioned in the Rules.

I wonder why this apparent "unwritten rule" is not IN the Official Rules?

It's not just the folks on this web-site, it is also DFW and Pat Miletich speaking up in favor of "throwing in the towel" when appropriate.

 


pretty sure that the way the rules are worded, throwing in the towel is counted as a FOUL, so when the corner throws it in it is a fight ending foul that rules it in the opponents' favor
10/23/13 7:05 PM
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ausgepicht
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ajl416az - 
ShawnTheBadger - 
ausgepicht - 
Melissa - 

In the Unified Rules for MMA the referee is the only one allowed to stop the fight, corners are not allowed to throw in the towel.  It's crazy to me that more corners don't know this.

http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#13

See # 13.


It's a valid point, but when this topic was brought  up before a few officials posted and said they would unequivocally stop any fight where a croner through in the towel.


Valid indeed, in fact it is bizarre that no mention of "throwing in the towel" is mentioned in the Rules.

I wonder why this apparent "unwritten rule" is not IN the Official Rules?

It's not just the folks on this web-site, it is also DFW and Pat Miletich speaking up in favor of "throwing in the towel" when appropriate.

 


pretty sure that the way the rules are worded, throwing in the towel is counted as a FOUL, so when the corner throws it in it is a fight ending foul that rules it in the opponents' favor

Not disagreeing with you, but curious....if throwing in a towel means a foul, why are fights where a towel is thrown in ruled a TKO instead of a DQ?

10/23/13 7:06 PM
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According to the ABC Unified Rules for MMA:

http://www.abcboxing.com/unified_mma_rules.html

REMOVED AS A FOUL- Throwing in the towel during competition

A fighter's corner, at the Commission's discretion, should have the option to retire his fighter in the quickest and most efficient manner possible, during competition. A corner person having worked alongside a fighter may recognize and accept what their fighter's capabilities are from past experience. It makes sense from a safety perspective to allow a corner to retire the fighter. If there is consideration that debris in the form of a towel entering the ring or cage may contribute to a disruption or confusion in the contest, then colored towels or special towels might be a consideration to be used.

 

 

10/23/13 7:16 PM
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ajl416az
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Edited: 10/23/13 7:17 PM
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I'm not sure how it works then honestly, that was just my poor interpretation of the rule that says its a foul to throw in the towel, which apparently has changed


in until someone one of our posters who refs can explain
10/23/13 7:18 PM
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ausgepicht
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Yeah, definitely not much in terms of clarity on this rule. Wish Big John posted more frequently.


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