UnderGround Forums
 

BJJGround Forum >> BJJ only sport req your coach to be better


10/29/13 12:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BJJER
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/10/06
Posts: 588
 
Why is BJJ the only sport where your coach MUST be better than you?

Wrestling- you have some fat fucks coaching in high school and all the way to the highest levels at universities and even the olypics. I'm sure the coach can't beat their wrestlers at a division 1 school.

basketball- I'm sure the coaches can't beat their players.

Football- Same thing.


So why is it if you can tap your BJJ coach then you feel like you have to leave to grow?
10/29/13 12:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TheBearStare
197 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/11/11
Posts: 2519
not saying whether I agree or disagree but Part of that I think is because u r actively training with your coach. So if you can kick your coaches butt and don't get tapped much then u r losing out on vital growth Phone Post
10/29/13 12:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LordSeano
122 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/5/02
Posts: 15393
BJJER - Why is BJJ the only sport where your coach MUST be better than you?

Wrestling- you have some fat fucks coaching in high school and all the way to the highest levels at universities and even the olypics. I'm sure the coach can't beat their wrestlers at a division 1 school.

basketball- I'm sure the coaches can't beat their players.

Football- Same thing.


So why is it if you can tap your BJJ coach then you feel like you have to leave to grow?

Who says it is?

I think you only say that because you are talking about the general population of joe-blue belts and hobbyist black belts being trained by world class black belts.

At the elite competition level that's not always going to be the case - and I'd say more often not.
10/29/13 1:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ShieldsWrestleBangedMySN
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/25/05
Posts: 4726
There's plenty of fat bjj coaches. Phone Post 3.0
10/29/13 1:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BJJER
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/10/06
Posts: 589
Yes at the elite levels it's somewhat true but not exactly.

For instance. Keenan Cornelius is elite, he trains with who? One of the top grapplers in the world.

I can't think of another example where the coah MUST be better than his pupils. And to top it off, get on the mat with them every day and prove it to them.

Give me an example of a competitor who maybe is not elite, who is better than their coach.
10/29/13 1:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Muffinho
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/23/09
Posts: 1854
Jacare (Alliance) probably can't beat most of his higher belt students (though, he is still a badass) and is a very good coach.
10/29/13 1:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
iqwrestler
4 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/11/11
Posts: 926
Anyone else like it this way bc it feels like the "kill the master" Sith mindset? Just me? Phone Post 3.0
10/29/13 1:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stipe
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/31/02
Posts: 2869
BJJER - Why is BJJ the only sport where your coach MUST be better than you?

Wrestling- you have some fat fucks coaching in high school and all the way to the highest levels at universities and even the olypics. I'm sure the coach can't beat their wrestlers at a division 1 school.

basketball- I'm sure the coaches can't beat their players.

Football- Same thing.


So why is it if you can tap your BJJ coach then you feel like you have to leave to grow?

Possibly some gang mentality in place of "let's prosper and learn and grow" mentality
I think a similar thing lurks in a lot of combat sports, whereas any other kind of sport nobody really gives a shit about that
10/29/13 1:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Akston
21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/29/12
Posts: 3767
Yeah, I'm sure I couldn't learn a thing from any of the 80+ year old grandmasters Phone Post
10/29/13 2:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BJJER
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/10/06
Posts: 590
iqwrestler - Anyone else like it this way bc it feels like the "kill the master" Sith mindset? Just me? Phone Post 3.0

I like this too. I've been training for 13 years and my instructor still kills me at will.

But I'm quite sure there will be a time when both my instructor and his current black belts will be older and a new kid will come in who will give us all hell. They may think, this is shit what the hell am I going to learn here?

Think about all those grandmaster that nobody really knew about just a year ago that have come to light because of the film "Red Belts," nobody was training with them anymore, all that knowledge not being shared.
10/29/13 2:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SlapUsilly
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2971
I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that the US BJJ scene was founded by a lot of young hot-shot brazilians near the peak of their careers that started teaching here. Of course these guys could beat most if not all their students so this is what a lot of us came up seeing.

I think in a few decades, as this original generation ages, the minset will change and there are more Jacare-types (great coach and leader, but old and far from their prime) around still teaching.
10/29/13 2:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LordSeano
122 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/5/02
Posts: 15394
BJJER - Yes at the elite levels it's somewhat true but not exactly.

For instance. Keenan Cornelius is elite, he trains with who? One of the top grapplers in the world.

I can't think of another example where the coah MUST be better than his pupils. And to top it off, get on the mat with them every day and prove it to them.

Give me an example of a competitor who maybe is not elite, who is better than their coach.

Come on man...

You're using an example of a current Brown Belt world champ that trains with a Black Belt World Champ as your example?

Think about black belts that aren't head coaches at their schools where they train with a coach?

Do you think Rodolfo can't beat Julio Cesar Pereira?

Or Leandro Lo can't beat Cicero Costha?

Or Caio Terra couldn't beat Cesar Gracie?

Or Roger couldnt beat his dad/Renzo/Carlinhos etc

There are plenty of elite black belts that train under a coach who isn't a current world champ black belt
10/29/13 2:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LordSeano
122 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/5/02
Posts: 15395
Also saying "give me examples of non-elite competitors that are better than their coach" is kind of pointless.

Of course the non-elite are likely to be worse than their coach. That's why they are not the elite. That goes for most sports though.
10/29/13 2:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
deedzBJJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/21/07
Posts: 458
This is 100% false. Let's say we have a retired competitor who is 65 years old he may be a bjj genius 7th degree black belt that hasn't rolled in years. He prob would get taped by purple belt who is a pan am champ at his school.

Does that mean he can't teach his students nope. Phone Post
10/29/13 3:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
misterw
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/1/08
Posts: 752
I think it is a martial arts idea that has been perpetuated by hollywood -- the grandmaster, who no matter his size or physical condition can still demolish his students. People don't expect that in western sports, because the idea is ridiculous. But somehow, the martial arts black belt should always be able to defeat younger, larger, and more athletic students. It is a silly idea and the sooner it is done with the better.
10/29/13 3:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
checkuroil
165 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/28/03
Posts: 36980
Keeps your coach training Phone Post 3.0
10/29/13 3:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RaginCajun54
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/27/11
Posts: 148
It's all about who you train with, not so much who trains you. While the coach is undoubtly the center piece of team, they do not have to be the top dog on the mat.

Carlson Gracie and his elite team is a perfect example in my opinion. The man found a way to incubate an incredible training environment and produce some of monsters. Carlson didn't have to train and dominate his students for their respect. Watch the documentary about him that was floating on here a few months back. Carlson had a way of coaching and commandeering his team in a way that was amazing without having to tap everyone to garner their respect.

TTT for Carlson
10/29/13 3:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FlowWithTheGo
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/7/07
Posts: 3465
Valid question is valid. I know a handful of tough guys that are awful coaches. VU OP Phone Post 3.0
10/29/13 4:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Poet of Gore
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/27/13
Posts: 489
BJJER - Why is BJJ the only sport where your coach MUST be better than you?

Wrestling- you have some fat fucks coaching in high school and all the way to the highest levels at universities and even the olypics. I'm sure the coach can't beat their wrestlers at a division 1 school.

basketball- I'm sure the coaches can't beat their players.

Football- Same thing.


So why is it if you can tap your BJJ coach then you feel like you have to leave to grow?

bjj is not a sport. it is a way of life

10/29/13 5:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Twelve Gage
4 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/5/11
Posts: 336
This is a good topic. I have wondered about this for a while.

This last weekend I was able to attend a strength and conditionoing seminar. The speakers included Olympic Coaches, Sports Psychologist, other professional trainers. They touched on the topic of coaching elite athletes when themselves were not elite athletes. They stated that the number one thing a trainer/coach must do is gain the confidence and trust of the athlete. You must make them believe you can help them.

I think one reason in Jiu Jitsu and in MMA athletes flock to big name competitors is because one way of gaining trust is by being able to "beat" the athlte in their own game. This enstills the trust that "hey he can show me something to help me improve." Versus if an athlete consistantly beats his coach, the coach no longer has the complete trust of that athlete.

Another problem I see in the MMA and Jiu Jitsu context is they do not adopt programs and training methods that other athletes have in other sports. A quick example of this is: how many elite football players/basketball players/ or track stars have you seen or read about them utilizing Crossfit for their strength and conditioning? Then you can see tons of bjj and mma fighters that consider that their strength and conditiongin program. Why?

I feel like it's because bjj and mma fighters think of themselves as elite "fighters" and not elite "athletes". This tough guy mindset prevents them from utilizing dietitians, self-regulation, sports psychologist, strength and conditioning, proper movement and range of motioin and other methods that are common place in other sports. That and money...

Sorry for the FRAT
10/29/13 5:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
joe_mama
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/8/11
Posts: 314
Quoting Mark Rippetoe again:
"Mediocre athletes that tried like hell to get good are the best coaches"
10/29/13 5:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tango_MF
9 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/14/09
Posts: 699
I like what Twelve Gage said about instructors constantly having to prove they deserve students' trust by being the top dog. I've seen this a lot in MMA and BJJ.

Also, since rolling is such an important part of improving in jiu jitsu, to get good at jiu jitsu it's pretty dang important to roll with people who are better than you.

In wresting, the seniors generally beat on the freshmen, etc., so you always have a continuation of talent.

In the average young jiu jitsu club with a few dozen white belts, a hand full of blue belts and a couple purples, the guy who is able to push the students to get better is usually the black or brown belt instructor.

In more maturated academies the head instructor no longer needs to fill this role, instead leaving it to those young bucks who are now killer brown and black belts.

When those top students leave to start their own thing they're going to be in the same place - the best guy or girl on the mat for years until the next generation comes a long.

And of course there's the "picky customer" mindset that causes some students to go to the new and popular instructors, who are usually the stud competitor at that time (and then hop to the next school when a newer up-and-coming competitor opens shop).
10/29/13 6:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DK Chaos
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/26/07
Posts: 206
I think the real reason for this is that in general the level of 'coaching' in BJJ/ MMA is quite amateurish compared to other sports.

I would imagine that the coaches of basketball teams spend lots of time planning sessions, evaluating the strengths & weaknesses of players on their own team, evaluating strengths & weaknesses of potential opposing teams,learning & studying strategies to help better prepare their team & players, researching mental skills & motivation skills for their team.

I contrast I think most BJJ coaches just turn up show whatever cool new de la riva guard sweep they feel like and then roll with their students.

If the basketball coach just came in & beat everyone on the team in one on one games everybody in the team would be hugely impressed and would go on the net talking up their awesome coach but I think the success of the team would suffer in the long term.
10/29/13 6:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hunter V
35 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10482
its more to do with some just being complete idiots in terms of training idealogy and full of too much testosterone.. You should stay w your coach due to the environment they are providing you and ability to transfer information. Hell I am willing to bet many browns and blacks for instance could have beaten Carlson (RIP) when he was still alive and just coaching, but I'll be damned if anybody w half a brain would NOT want to train with him w his resume. Same can be said for training w some guy who say won his weight in wrestling at nationals or instead getting to train w a Dan Gable, its not even close if you have half a brain. Eventually the idiot mentality will be weeded out but for now just weather the storm.
10/29/13 7:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
truehonor
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/31/10
Posts: 710
SlapUsilly - I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that the US BJJ scene was founded by a lot of young hot-shot brazilians near the peak of their careers that started teaching here. Of course these guys could beat most if not all their students so this is what a lot of us came up seeing.

I think in a few decades, as this original generation ages, the minset will change and there are more Jacare-types (great coach and leader, but old and far from their prime) around still teaching.

I think Slapu just offered a great and very accurate historical analysis on how things got this way, and also where it is inevitably will be heading.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.