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UnderGround Forums >> GSP = GOAT of MMA.


11/14/13 5:46 PM
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Nucky
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Jones and Fedor are the real GOAT's.  I feel like im watching a college rassling match when GSP comes out in his singlets and starts shooting in and boring the fans.  Seriously i can't even remember the last memorable fight of GSP what was it BJ penn??

11/14/13 6:04 PM
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BDW_1983
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"A gentleman and a warrior" - YES
Goat - NO
And I cant see him finishing Hendrix. Phone Post 3.0
11/14/13 6:09 PM
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upaloompa
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@Newoldvitor

With all due respect man, I'm a huge Fedor fan but this post is partisan to the point of dishonesty. Fedor is my favourite fighter of all time, and the HW goat but this is frankly just spun to the point of sounding crazy.<

30 fights- Fights against RANKED HEAVYWEIGHTS are what matters. Ogawa, Fujita, lindland, choi. Using 30 fights as if they were all against top (or even decent) competition is completely missing the point. A 30 fight streak with one third of them being bums is not impressive as a 15 fight streak against ranked opponents. The biggest problem with this argument is it takes away from what Fedor DID do which was beat close to a dozen ranked fighters in a row. Citing all 30 doesn't say nearly as much as citing those dozen. It's those wins that allow us to put him in context with other goats, not ogawa and fujita. It just isn't that much of a point without quality of comp factored in and then it becomes super heavily qualified.

GSP lost at the start of his prime, this idea that Fedor only lost outside of his prime is completely untrue. There were NO talks of that after arlovski when Fedor was still the best heavy in the world, or after rogers but suddenly as soon as he loses he's past prime? Nonsense. You don't go from having a series of brutal carreer defining knockouts against top competition to being useless. Going into that Werdum fight Fedor looked every bit as good as he did against Tim, the thing is he wasn't fighting Tim. He may have mentally changed, but in terms of age, skillset and physical ability he was every bit still "prime". It's dishonest revisionist history like saying Fedor never beat anyone to say Fedor was anything but going into that Werdum fight. Also, once we allow "mentally past prime" in it ruins your argument because it applies the same to a young GSP who may have "mentally yet to reach his prime". The Fedor that fought in SF was physically well conditioned, explosive like never before with a big experience gap vs his younger self. Fedor also didn't suffer injuries to slow him down like many others. You don't see Wandy and Chuck style dementia inducing Ko's when you look at Fedor. He was healthy, fit, with more experience the only thing that may have been lacking was inside his head, which once again makes your point meaningless.

>Hendo was way past his prime, and as you can see by his performance vs other LHWs in the fights that followed it's hard to hold him as some sort of world beater at this point. He's one of the greatest ever easily and there's no shame in that loss but you only have to actually watch the fights to understand that the Hendo that beat Fedor wasn't a world beater, nor was he ranked in the same division.<br /><br />Bigfoot got stopped brutally both times, and the second shot he didn't earn. No sane person thought that fight was close. Yes he's a top ranked HW but being the #5 guy in the world doesn't absolve the guy you're arguing for as being the single best ever from losing to him. It's a legit loss, and it's at the least difficult to try to just explain it away like it's okay, especially with bigfoots meh UFC run.

>Werdum is 100% legit and 100% won via intelligence. Fedor's grappling was never on that level and we saw it there. Fedor is an A+ level grappler and BB, but his ground game was never highly technical on the level of a Werdum.

"Lucky punch" isn't an argument ever under any circumstances unless he tried to hit him in the chest and hit him in the chin, there was nothing lucky about it and that stoppage was legit. You can't just take wins away from people because you don't like them. Hendo won via doing what Hendo does, there's no mystery there, Fedor knew what he was going in to and got stopped anyways.<br /><br />A ref stoppage is LOSING. Period.

Once we've gotten this out of the way, we can get down to real metrics like division dominance, title defenses, quality of opposition and finishing percentage. Fedor's in contention for all of these, so there's no need to try to justify all his losses, let him stand on his merits.<


In this context, I think he's tied with Georges and Andy for division dominance at his peak (although Georges defended his belt more) and finished spectacularly. The issue is that Georges has fought tougher competition with no easy ones in between.<br /><br />I`m not saying Fedor isn`t the GOAT, he may very well be but I don`t think it`s for the reasons you gave. Wins vs top ranked comp within ones division is probably the most legit measurement and in this respect Georges, Anderson and Fedor are all within striking distance of one another. When it comes to ranking them amongst themselves it boils down to what you find most important. For me that`s quality of comp, for others that might be finishing. All 3 candidates can be disparaged, GSP doesn`t finish, Fedor fought a lot of shaky competition, Anderson was king over a weak division, all three lost (none significantly past prime). What matters when evaluating them is their dominance of their division, and then it`s usually a matter of personal preference for other criteria.

In this respect, it`s not entirely unreasonable to rank Georges first as when it comes to quality opponents he has been every bit as dominant as his peers in contention. Whether he gets number one boils down to what subjective criteria you hold the highest. I think quality of opposition is number one, then longetivity, then finishing so I give it to Georges. You might value other criteria differently, but it`s not the end of any discussion. Realistically the only way I see anyone changing their belief is if we can find a concrete way of establishing criteria by which we judge Goats. Otherwise they`re all kinda close and I think a good case can be made for Georges depending on your criteria.
11/14/13 6:14 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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Kerouac -
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I guess my point overall is they all have detriments in the discussion. The question is who's are the biggest.

Here it is then...are you ready?

Fedor lost 3 fights in a row. Two to non champions and one to someone, literally, one weight class smaller than he is.

GSP lost to Hughes ( Champion ) when he had a handfull of fights and then lost to Serra, 3 years later.

GSP > Fedor > A.Silva
Thats a fine opinion but you have to respect that many people value actually finishing your opponents and doing so in devastating fashion. This sport originated from that, and finishing people is very important to many.

Thats why Anderson or Fedor are GOAT to the vast majority over GSP.

GSP is hands down the greatest ATHLETE the sport has ever seen, and a master of gameplanning. He is not the GOAT to the vast majority because he fights to win on points without taking the risks that AS/Fedor took to finish. Phone Post

That's a good argument.

I just like the fact that GSP has avenged his losses and that he literally dominated everyone he's faced. Other than his two losses and his fight with Condit, how many times was he getting smashed on?

My opinion won't change until Fedor avenges at least one of his last 3 losses and Silva beats Weidman twice.
I wont try and change your opinion. I just look at GOAT as a fighters entire career and avenging specific losses doesnt matter much in most situations.
The reality is that Andy and Georges are not done yet, so it hard to be decisive. If they bith stopped fighting right now, even with the Andy loss to Wiedman, I still have Anderson > GSP. I tend to favor devistation and finishes more than most I guess... Phone Post
11/14/13 6:16 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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Umpalumpa thanks for editing that mess!!!

That is a very rational breakdown of it all. Great post. Phone Post
11/14/13 6:20 PM
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upaloompa
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Thanks man,

Yeah, it was fine on my screen then I saw the clusterfuck and changed it up, good messages can be lost with shitty formatting. That and this is the UG and someone would bust my balls guaranteed
11/14/13 6:37 PM
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Kerouac
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Kerouac -
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I guess my point overall is they all have detriments in the discussion. The question is who's are the biggest.

Here it is then...are you ready?

Fedor lost 3 fights in a row. Two to non champions and one to someone, literally, one weight class smaller than he is.

GSP lost to Hughes ( Champion ) when he had a handfull of fights and then lost to Serra, 3 years later.

GSP > Fedor > A.Silva
Thats a fine opinion but you have to respect that many people value actually finishing your opponents and doing so in devastating fashion. This sport originated from that, and finishing people is very important to many.

Thats why Anderson or Fedor are GOAT to the vast majority over GSP.

GSP is hands down the greatest ATHLETE the sport has ever seen, and a master of gameplanning. He is not the GOAT to the vast majority because he fights to win on points without taking the risks that AS/Fedor took to finish. Phone Post

That's a good argument.

I just like the fact that GSP has avenged his losses and that he literally dominated everyone he's faced. Other than his two losses and his fight with Condit, how many times was he getting smashed on?

My opinion won't change until Fedor avenges at least one of his last 3 losses and Silva beats Weidman twice.
I wont try and change your opinion. I just look at GOAT as a fighters entire career and avenging specific losses doesnt matter much in most situations.
The reality is that Andy and Georges are not done yet, so it hard to be decisive. If they bith stopped fighting right now, even with the Andy loss to Wiedman, I still have Anderson > GSP. I tend to favor devistation and finishes more than most I guess... Phone Post

So you're saying that even if GSP hadn't lost a single fight, the fact that he doesn't finish fights all his fights ranks him lower than Fedor and Silva in the GOAT category...hmmm

I guess Melvin Manhoeff is the GOAT then.
11/14/13 8:54 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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I never said anything of the sort. I said avenging losses in context doesnt always matter. No one needs to see Andy beat Chonan or Takase to cement his legacy. That was the point.

Other things like level of competition certainly matter, so the Manhoef comment is silly.

All three have had very high level of competition. GSP gets a slight edge over Andy there. No question. Phone Post
11/14/13 9:20 PM
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Kerouac
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - I never said anything of the sort. I said avenging losses in context doesnt always matter. No one needs to see Andy beat Chonan or Takase to cement his legacy. That was the point.

Other things like level of competition certainly matter, so the Manhoef comment is silly.

All three have had very high level of competition. GSP gets a slight edge over Andy there. No question. Phone Post

I never said he did...I said that Silva needed to beat Weidman twice to make up what he lost to become the GOAT.

The Manhoef comment is as silly as your comment about GSP not finishing " devistatingly * " being the factor in him being GOAT or not.

My point is that GSP has dominated EVERY opponent he's ever faced.

Same can't be said for Fedor or Silva...or anyone else for that matter.
11/14/13 9:42 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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So he needs to beat Wiedman twice? Why doesnt GSP need to beat Serra twice?

Twice seems odd.

The Manhoef comment was totally silly and in no way is my preferrence for fighters finishing thier opponents as silly as that comment. You may think exploiting the scoring and riding out the clock with jabs and TDs is just as dominant as finishing, but MANY people dont have GSP up there with Fedor and Anderson for that exact reason. Phone Post
11/14/13 9:44 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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GSP finishes 35% of his UFC fights....under 50% overall.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson. Phone Post
11/14/13 10:02 PM
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Kerouac
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - So he needs to beat Wiedman twice? Why doesnt GSP need to beat Serra twice?

Twice seems odd.

The Manhoef comment was totally silly and in no way is my preferrence for fighters finishing thier opponents as silly as that comment. You may think exploiting the scoring and riding out the clock with jabs and TDs is just as dominant as finishing, but MANY people dont have GSP up there with Fedor and Anderson for that exact reason. Phone Post

Because Serra never got another chance and we all know why.

Twice because if Silva wins next fight, there'll be an immediate rematch again...and if they fight a third time and Anderson lost 2 out of 3, then it would cement GSP as GOAT...assuming GSP wins Saturday.

GSP isn't exploiting anything other than his opponents' weaknesses...he's dominated every single fighter he's ever faced...
Who else can say that?
11/14/13 10:04 PM
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Kerouac
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - GSP finishes 35% of his UFC fights....under 50% overall.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson. Phone Post

GSP has dominated 100% of his opponents.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson
11/14/13 10:52 PM
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Jaybrone
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GSP is one of the best ever and is the smartest and most well rounded fighter the sport has ever seen. He is in my opinion the most talented fighter in mma history. Phone Post 3.0
11/14/13 10:59 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - GSP finishes 35% of his UFC fights....under 50% overall.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson. Phone Post

GSP has dominated 100% of his opponents.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson
So despite me clearly stating that I wont try and change your opinion, you just cannot let go of trying to change mine?

I applaud GSP for being able to outpoint his opponents, and take little to no damage in the process. However, I am a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make thier opponent quit or go to sleep. Fighters who are willing to risk getting hit or giving up a position to steal the soul of thier opponent.

GSP is an amazing athlete and gameplanner. He has exceptionally well rounded skill. He is just not a calculated killer like Fedor or Andy.


If Anderson desroys Chris, and is never in any danger, there wont be an immediate rematch. Phone Post
11/14/13 11:07 PM
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Stephen Holder
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MarcVanBas - A great, yes without question.....but if he was goat wouldn't you have better highlight gifs to post than 3 takedowns?

11/14/13 11:09 PM
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Kerouac
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Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - GSP finishes 35% of his UFC fights....under 50% overall.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson. Phone Post

GSP has dominated 100% of his opponents.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson
So despite me clearly stating that I wont try and change your opinion, you just cannot let go of trying to change mine?

I applaud GSP for being able to outpoint his opponents, and take little to no damage in the process. However, I am a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make thier opponent quit or go to sleep. Fighters who are willing to risk getting hit or giving up a position to steal the soul of thier opponent.

GSP is an amazing athlete and gameplanner. He has exceptionally well rounded skill. He is just not a calculated killer like Fedor or Andy.


If Anderson desroys Chris, and is never in any danger, there wont be an immediate rematch. Phone Post

I'm not trying to change your mind. Just stating facts and comparing careers.

I'm also a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make their opponent quit or go to sleep. Doesn't change the fact that GSP has dominated everyone he's faced. You seem to say that GSP is so good that he can control exactly how the fight goes every time...wouldn't that make him GOAT?

What if Anderson loses by knockout or submission again?

Still a better career than GSP?

11/14/13 11:10 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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Even Zuffa has to go back 5+ years in the commercials to show him swarming Jay H...


Oh and he lost rounds to Shields and Condit ;-) if we are gonna say he "100% dominated everyone"... Phone Post
11/14/13 11:14 PM
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye
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Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - 
Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - GSP finishes 35% of his UFC fights....under 50% overall.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson. Phone Post

GSP has dominated 100% of his opponents.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson
So despite me clearly stating that I wont try and change your opinion, you just cannot let go of trying to change mine?

I applaud GSP for being able to outpoint his opponents, and take little to no damage in the process. However, I am a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make thier opponent quit or go to sleep. Fighters who are willing to risk getting hit or giving up a position to steal the soul of thier opponent.

GSP is an amazing athlete and gameplanner. He has exceptionally well rounded skill. He is just not a calculated killer like Fedor or Andy.


If Anderson desroys Chris, and is never in any danger, there wont be an immediate rematch. Phone Post

I'm not trying to change your mind. Just stating facts and comparing careers.

I'm also a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make their opponent quit or go to sleep. Doesn't change the fact that GSP has dominated everyone he's faced. You seem to say that GSP is so good that he can control exactly how the fight goes every time...wouldn't that make him GOAT?

What if Anderson loses by knockout or submission again?

Still a better career than GSP?

I dont want to play the what if game...

Niether of them are done fighting yet. Anderson and GSP might both lose or both win. Who knows. I will wait until both of thier careers are over. If it ended today I have Fedor and Anderson over GSP. Phone Post
11/14/13 11:25 PM
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Kerouac
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - Even Zuffa has to go back 5+ years in the commercials to show him swarming Jay H...


Oh and he lost rounds to Shields and Condit ;-) if we are gonna say he "100% dominated everyone"... Phone Post

They could have gone with punches and kicks to Hughes's face, him elbowing BJ 30 times and kneeing Serra into submission, or him knocking down and pounding Alves, agreed.

Condit won 1 round.

K-1 Shields won 1 round...two if you're retarded.

11/14/13 11:26 PM
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Kerouac
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FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - 
Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - 
Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - GSP finishes 35% of his UFC fights....under 50% overall.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson. Phone Post

GSP has dominated 100% of his opponents.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson
So despite me clearly stating that I wont try and change your opinion, you just cannot let go of trying to change mine?

I applaud GSP for being able to outpoint his opponents, and take little to no damage in the process. However, I am a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make thier opponent quit or go to sleep. Fighters who are willing to risk getting hit or giving up a position to steal the soul of thier opponent.

GSP is an amazing athlete and gameplanner. He has exceptionally well rounded skill. He is just not a calculated killer like Fedor or Andy.


If Anderson desroys Chris, and is never in any danger, there wont be an immediate rematch. Phone Post

I'm not trying to change your mind. Just stating facts and comparing careers.

I'm also a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make their opponent quit or go to sleep. Doesn't change the fact that GSP has dominated everyone he's faced. You seem to say that GSP is so good that he can control exactly how the fight goes every time...wouldn't that make him GOAT?

What if Anderson loses by knockout or submission again?

Still a better career than GSP?

I dont want to play the what if game...

Niether of them are done fighting yet. Anderson and GSP might both lose or both win. Who knows. I will wait until both of thier careers are over. If it ended today I have Fedor and Anderson over GSP. Phone Post

Well there you go...

If it ended today, GSP is GOAT because he's beaten everyone he's ever faced.

11/14/13 11:37 PM
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DaemonDragon
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I still think it's going to take a bit for GSP to pass Anderson and Fedor. Dominating by winning rounds is just not the same as straight up murdering people. Fedor and Anderson also had insane longevity on top of often awe-inspiring dominance.

GSP can avoid Fedor's late career losses if he retires early, but that would be a poor rationale to rank him above Fedor. Chuck wasn't any less great just because he got KOed by a light breeze at the end. Guys like Chuck and Fedor had already established their dominant legacies prior to their late career downswings.

I believe Jones will also surpass GSP.

Aldo also has a good shot at passing GSP - if he wins the LW title, that would be pretty historic. The other multi-division greats - Hendo, Penn, Randy - had numerous losses. Aldo is more dominant in his own division than those three were, and if he can win a solid majority of his fights at 155 (if he ever goes there) it would be hard to argue against him being top 5 P4P GOAT. Whether he does surpass GSP depends on a lot going right for Aldo - but it's very possible.
Kerouac - Twice because if Silva wins next fight, there'll be an immediate rematch again...

Unless it's an incredibly controversial decision or something, no, there will not be another rematch if Anderson wins.

Those largely happen because of circumstance and lack of obvious contenders. See Penn-Edgar II, which happened mostly because the only obvious contender - Maynard - didn't want to fight Penn at the time. There was also no clear contender getting bypassed for Machida-Rua II, so that combined with the controversial nature of the decision made a rematch the very obvious call. Whereas it would be pretty damn hard to bypass Vitor right now. He's the ridiculously obvious #1 contender.

If Weidman loses, I'm pretty sure he'll need at least 1 win before getting another shot.
11/14/13 11:49 PM
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Kerouac
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DaemonDragon - I still think it's going to take a bit for GSP to pass Anderson and Fedor. Dominating by winning rounds is just not the same as straight up murdering people. Fedor and Anderson also had insane longevity on top of often awe-inspiring dominance.

GSP can avoid Fedor's late career losses if he retires early, but that would be a poor rationale to rank him above Fedor. Chuck wasn't any less great just because he got KOed by a light breeze at the end. Guys like Chuck and Fedor had already established their dominant legacies prior to their late career downswings.

I believe Jones will also surpass GSP.

Aldo also has a good shot at passing GSP - if he wins the LW title, that would be pretty historic. The other multi-division greats - Hendo, Penn, Randy - had numerous losses. Aldo is more dominant in his own division than those three were, and if he can win a solid majority of his fights at 155 (if he ever goes there) it would be hard to argue against him being top 5 P4P GOAT. Whether he does surpass GSP depends on a lot going right for Aldo - but it's very possible.
Kerouac - Twice because if Silva wins next fight, there'll be an immediate rematch again...

Unless it's an incredibly controversial decision or something, no, there will not be another rematch if Anderson wins.

Those largely happen because of circumstance and lack of obvious contenders. See Penn-Edgar II, which happened mostly because the only obvious contender - Maynard - didn't want to fight Penn at the time. There was also no clear contender getting bypassed for Machida-Rua II, so that combined with the controversial nature of the decision made a rematch the very obvious call. Whereas it would be pretty damn hard to bypass Vitor right now. He's the ridiculously obvious #1 contender.

If Weidman loses, I'm pretty sure he'll need at least 1 win before getting another shot.

3 losses in a row and having fought lesser competition takes Fedor out of GOAT in my opinion.

Silva and GSP are closer in comparison but if GSP loses on Saturday and Silva wins his rematch, Silva should be considered GOAT.

As of right now, all things considered and not including maybes and what-ifs...GSP is the most dominating champion to ever step in the Octagon/Ring.

I agree that Aldo could surpass GSP...time will tell.
11/15/13 12:43 AM
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crazydave
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GSP>Anderson> ... daylight ... > Coleman > Fedor

11/15/13 8:24 AM
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Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - 
Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - 
Kerouac -
FETT_ Cains._Burrito_In_My_BrownEye - GSP finishes 35% of his UFC fights....under 50% overall.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson. Phone Post

GSP has dominated 100% of his opponents.

Compare that to Fedor and Anderson
So despite me clearly stating that I wont try and change your opinion, you just cannot let go of trying to change mine?

I applaud GSP for being able to outpoint his opponents, and take little to no damage in the process. However, I am a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make thier opponent quit or go to sleep. Fighters who are willing to risk getting hit or giving up a position to steal the soul of thier opponent.

GSP is an amazing athlete and gameplanner. He has exceptionally well rounded skill. He is just not a calculated killer like Fedor or Andy.


If Anderson desroys Chris, and is never in any danger, there wont be an immediate rematch. Phone Post

I'm not trying to change your mind. Just stating facts and comparing careers.

I'm also a fan of fighters who get in the cage to make their opponent quit or go to sleep. Doesn't change the fact that GSP has dominated everyone he's faced. You seem to say that GSP is so good that he can control exactly how the fight goes every time...wouldn't that make him GOAT?

What if Anderson loses by knockout or submission again?

Still a better career than GSP?

I dont want to play the what if game...

Niether of them are done fighting yet. Anderson and GSP might both lose or both win. Who knows. I will wait until both of thier careers are over. If it ended today I have Fedor and Anderson over GSP. Phone Post

Well there you go...

If it ended today, GSP is GOAT because he's beaten everyone he's ever faced.

Thats your opinion. Hate to break it to you but the majority here dont agree with you. Phone Post

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