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11/27/13 10:43 AM
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Joe Lauzon
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I saw a post on reddit about judging, and this was my comment. Figured I would post it here too.

Boxing is very straight forward... you hit the other guy until he can't stand. How do you score this though... two guys fighting, We will call them Apollo and Rocky.

In one round, Apollo lands a TON of punches and while they are starting to take effect, Rocky stays on his feet. Towards the end of the round, Rocky lands a couple HUGE shots, and wobbles Apollo but he doesn't go down. Now Rocky was getting beat up for 2:45 of a 3:00 round, but landed those huge shots at the end of the round. Who gets the round? Apollo for controlling and winning most of the round, or Rocky for landing the biggest and best shots of the round. It's a tough decision, but this is just quality versus volume.

Some will say Apollo won the round and some will say Rocky. Its tough to get the same answer from lots of people though, because its subjective and you are comparing apples to oranges.

Now... same thing, Apollo and Rocky fight in an MMA match. Apollo is using his jab and beating up Rocky for most of the round, but towards the end of the round, Rocky shoots a double and works some ground and pound, passes the guard and sinks a read naked choke... but Apollo is saved by the bell. Now you have to compare standup striking and balance them against ground and pound... but also factor in a takedown and a near submission. How many punches did that takedown cancel out? how many did the submission?

Comparing apples to oranges is tough... comparing a grouping of apples, oranges, bananas, pineapples and grapes is even tougher when nothing matches up. Decisions suck.

Always fight for the finish, and don't let someone else have any influence on your winning or losing.

11/27/13 10:43 AM
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FullyLoadedFists
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I agree Phone Post
11/27/13 10:49 AM
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dubate
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Joe Lauzon -

I saw a post on reddit about judging, and this was my comment. Figured I would post it here too.

Boxing is very straight forward... you hit the other guy until he can't stand. How do you score this though... two guys fighting, We will call them Apollo and Rocky.

In one round, Apollo lands a TON of punches and while they are starting to take effect, Rocky stays on his feet. Towards the end of the round, Rocky lands a couple HUGE shots, and wobbles Apollo but he doesn't go down. Now Rocky was getting beat up for 2:45 of a 3:00 round, but landed those huge shots at the end of the round. Who gets the round? Apollo for controlling and winning most of the round, or Rocky for landing the biggest and best shots of the round. It's a tough decision, but this is just quality versus volume.

Some will say Apollo won the round and some will say Rocky. Its tough to get the same answer from lots of people though, because its subjective and you are comparing apples to oranges.

Now... same thing, Apollo and Rocky fight in an MMA match. Apollo is using his jab and beating up Rocky for most of the round, but towards the end of the round, Rocky shoots a double and works some ground and pound, passes the guard and sinks a read naked choke... but Apollo is saved by the bell. Now you have to compare standup striking and balance them against ground and pound... but also factor in a takedown and a near submission. How many punches did that takedown cancel out? how many did the submission?

Comparing apples to oranges is tough... comparing a grouping of apples, oranges, bananas, pineapples and grapes is even tougher when nothing matches up. Decisions suck.

Always fight for the finish, and don't let someone else have any influence on your winning or losing.

When in doubt just invite the judges over to your house and make it rain on them with dollar bills and pennies. Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 10:51 AM
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UGCTT_EnderTL
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Judges are using an insufficient tool to judge MMA. It doesn't have nearly enough buttons or doohickys to do all the things that are needed to judge one properly. That being said, you are correct... decisions suck.

11/27/13 10:52 AM
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TheRealMrBeefy
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Joe "Fruit Cocktail" Lauzon!

Awesome OP Joe, many of us wonder the same exact thing, as there was only about a thousand threads about The GSP/Hendricks fight arguing about the decision outcome. Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 10:56 AM
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snobordr
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11/27/13 10:57 AM
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Voodoo
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Nice post! Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 10:57 AM
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caseharts
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Lol you veggie tales Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 10:57 AM
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snobordr
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On a serious note, thanks for another insightful opinion.

11/27/13 10:59 AM
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UGCTT_EnderTL
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What is that apple doing with those grapes?

11/27/13 11:04 AM
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fan4000
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Joe Lauzon -

I saw a post on reddit about judging, and this was my comment. Figured I would post it here too.

Boxing is very straight forward... you hit the other guy until he can't stand. How do you score this though... two guys fighting, We will call them Apollo and Rocky.

In one round, Apollo lands a TON of punches and while they are starting to take effect, Rocky stays on his feet. Towards the end of the round, Rocky lands a couple HUGE shots, and wobbles Apollo but he doesn't go down. Now Rocky was getting beat up for 2:45 of a 3:00 round, but landed those huge shots at the end of the round. Who gets the round? Apollo for controlling and winning most of the round, or Rocky for landing the biggest and best shots of the round. It's a tough decision, but this is just quality versus volume.

Some will say Apollo won the round and some will say Rocky. Its tough to get the same answer from lots of people though, because its subjective and you are comparing apples to oranges.

Now... same thing, Apollo and Rocky fight in an MMA match. Apollo is using his jab and beating up Rocky for most of the round, but towards the end of the round, Rocky shoots a double and works some ground and pound, passes the guard and sinks a read naked choke... but Apollo is saved by the bell. Now you have to compare standup striking and balance them against ground and pound... but also factor in a takedown and a near submission. How many punches did that takedown cancel out? how many did the submission?

Comparing apples to oranges is tough... comparing a grouping of apples, oranges, bananas, pineapples and grapes is even tougher when nothing matches up. Decisions suck.

Always fight for the finish, and don't let someone else have any influence on your winning or losing.

Unfortunately we will always have fighter that try to win rounds instead of win fights. The only way to make judging accurate is to lay out a rubric within the unified rules. The current system is too vague. We (and the judges) need to know exactly how much each facet of the fight is worth. The system would need to heavily weigh attempted finishes, to avoid people from exploiting it. Phone Post
11/27/13 11:16 AM
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Switchheadkick
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Amen joe amen Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 11:16 AM
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jack_wilshere
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The problem with outlining exactly how much each facet of the fight is worth, I.e. takedown = X guard pass = Y - is that fights consist of intangible forces. Basically, some takedowns are more alpha than others, some jabs (and boners) are stiffer than others.

What we need are 1. Judges that train. 2. Accountability for judges, if they suck, demote the fuckers. 3. Most importantly, Dynamic scoring.

Take Rampage vs Machida, as it's a clear example. Page barely edged the opening two rounds then clearly lost the third. In my mind the fight should be a 28-28 draw.

When will the judges realise that NOT EVERY ROUND IS A 10-9!! Dynamic scoring works and if it means there are too many draws either so be it or create an extra round like on tuf.

I'm a huge Joe Lauzon fan, but saying don't leave it in the hands of the judges is a simplistic response to a complicated problem. Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 11:39 AM
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fan4000
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I'm not saying an exact value, I'm saying a more detailed guideline. An exact scoring system would turn fights into point fights. I'm saying a rubric that assigns a rough weighted value. With such a rubric damage could carry more weight than volume with no damage, powerful takedowns would mean more than takedowns that aren't powerful. Attempted finishes would mean more than cheap takedowns at the end of rounds.

Still using a 10 point must system, just having more detailed criteria. Phone Post
11/27/13 11:43 AM
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nostripewhite
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fan4000 - I'm not saying an exact value, I'm saying a more detailed guideline. An exact scoring system would turn fights into point fights. I'm saying a rubric that assigns a rough weighted value. With such a rubric damage could carry more weight than volume with no damage, powerful takedowns would mean more than takedowns that aren't powerful. Attempted finishes would mean more than cheap takedowns at the end of rounds.

Still using a 10 point must system, just having more detailed criteria. Phone Post
You will still have split decisions.

All judges won't just sit and count punches, as long as humans are responsible for judging, you're gonna have butt hurt fags who cry 'robbery!' Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 11:54 AM
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Porkchop
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I like to look at MMA as a box of chocolates personally.... But a bowl of fruit works fine for me too...

Great post Joe. It's all a matter of interpretation.
11/27/13 11:59 AM
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Kid Salami
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Agree wholeheartedly. The current scoring criteria is too subjective and until a more definitive criteria is rolled out, nothing will change.

Also, people clamour for MMA judges to have a certain degree of fighting experience, thinking that it will vastly improve fight scoring. Although it may help slightly, unless the criteria is detailed in a way fights can be scored in way where subjective thinking is removed, then nothing will really change. Everyone has their own opinions and own influences an fighters are no different. Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 11:59 AM
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Nick Diaz Fan
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what about watermelons?

11/27/13 12:01 PM
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Calavaro
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Award attempts to finish more than positional control.

Example. 1 huge overhand rights that lands and wobbles the opponent scores higher that 300 soft jabs.

An attempted sub, even if position is lost, counts more than 4 minutes of top control where the top fighter does little or no damage. Phone Post
11/27/13 12:04 PM
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ChrisWeidmanedmydiameter
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Thanks Joe! Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 12:12 PM
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FETT_WTT_TFK_UGCTT_pennviachoke
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Great post Joe Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 12:16 PM
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SupesUp
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Calavaro - Award attempts to finish more than positional control.

Example. 1 huge overhand rights that lands and wobbles the opponent scores higher that 300 soft jabs.

An attempted sub, even if position is lost, counts more than 4 minutes of top control where the top fighter does little or no damage. Phone Post
Problem with this is, you're potentially awarding someone for a lucky punch that lands hard rather than the smarter fighter avoiding damage and racking up volume strikes.
Secondly this whole "damage" criteria is getting out of hand. These guys don't have life bars above their heads showing damage done, and you can't just assume you know that a jab is doing no damage and another strike is doing more.
Look at the kick jds knocked out hunt with. Probably looked like the shittiest connection he made all night.
Or that punch that put out gsp vs serra, looked much worse than anything Hendricks hit him with.
Some people can take more punishment, we'll never know if a guy is hard to finish or if the punchers punches aren't doing the same damage.

Jones looked like he was taking more damage vs gus but in the later rounds it was gus that was wobbling.

This is the hardest Fucking sport on the planet to score and everyone on here has the proper way to fix it but it's still subjective.

How many people cry for pride scoring, never saw any bad decisions over in pride...
This is not as easy a puzzle as everyone makes it out to be. Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 12:21 PM
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WuDaddy
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Pretty good assessment Phone Post 3.0
11/27/13 12:22 PM
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Calavaro
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SupesUp - 
Calavaro - Award attempts to finish more than positional control.

Example. 1 huge overhand rights that lands and wobbles the opponent scores higher that 300 soft jabs.

An attempted sub, even if position is lost, counts more than 4 minutes of top control where the top fighter does little or no damage. Phone Post
Problem with this is, you're potentially awarding someone for a lucky punch that lands hard rather than the smarter fighter avoiding damage and racking up volume strikes.
Secondly this whole "damage" criteria is getting out of hand. These guys don't have life bars above their heads showing damage done, and you can't just assume you know that a jab is doing no damage and another strike is doing more.
Look at the kick jds knocked out hunt with. Probably looked like the shittiest connection he made all night.
Or that punch that put out gsp vs serra, looked much worse than anything Hendricks hit him with.
Some people can take more punishment, we'll never know if a guy is hard to finish or if the punchers punches aren't doing the same damage.

Jones looked like he was taking more damage vs gus but in the later rounds it was gus that was wobbling.

This is the hardest Fucking sport on the planet to score and everyone on here has the proper way to fix it but it's still subjective.

How many people cry for pride scoring, never saw any bad decisions over in pride...
This is not as easy a puzzle as everyone makes it out to be. Phone Post 3.0

No attempted punch is lucky and no sub attempt is lucky. Award those attempts.

I didn't talk about damage. I talk about "ATTEMPTS TO FINISH FIGHTS". Reward those attempts. Also makes for a more fun fight when fighters know that when they go for stuff they are rewarded.

11/27/13 2:10 PM
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fan4000
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nostripewhite -
fan4000 - I'm not saying an exact value, I'm saying a more detailed guideline. An exact scoring system would turn fights into point fights. I'm saying a rubric that assigns a rough weighted value. With such a rubric damage could carry more weight than volume with no damage, powerful takedowns would mean more than takedowns that aren't powerful. Attempted finishes would mean more than cheap takedowns at the end of rounds.

Still using a 10 point must system, just having more detailed criteria. Phone Post
You will still have split decisions.

All judges won't just sit and count punches, as long as humans are responsible for judging, you're gonna have butt hurt fags who cry 'robbery!' Phone Post 3.0
I know there will still be split decisions, it's about reaching the best decision whether it's split or not. I never implied anyone should count punches, that's kind of the opposite of what I'm saying. Phone Post

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