UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> Fedor versus Anderson: Who is the GOAT?


1/10/14 11:09 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80178
"SOOOOOOOOOOO Fedor fought his 1-3 top 5 contenders,"

Fedor fought 1-3 top 5 contenders a year? Really? That's weird because he only had three title defenses in his entire career and one of those was a rematch. Who were these top 5 contenders? Zulu? Coleman? Randleman? Hunt? Ogawa? Goodridge? Fujita? Can you show me any rankings that had any of them in the top 5?



1/10/14 11:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sparkuri
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/4/08
Posts: 15864
gokudamus stole my name iv -
sparkuri - 
gokudamus stole my name iv - So?

Let me get this straight, where exactly is Anderson on your list? Below Fedor, below Igor...I assume below Randy Couture, because he beat loads of guys much bigger than himself...below Cain for sure, below Dan Henderson too maybe?

Where exactly do you put the guy with the most title defenses in MMA history?
Imo, title defenses mean nothing.
Not for Fedor, Anderson, Hughes, GSP, or anybody else.
It's about the obstacles a man overcomes.
"Title defenses" is window dressing. Phone Post 3.0

Title defenses imply several things: that you're fighting a higher level of competition on average than someone in a non-title fight is; that you have more pressure; and that you have less motivation.
I'm not addressing what it implies, I'm addressing the truth of the matter.
Pressure is relative and nearly impossible to differentiate.
Ask any fighter and you've heard it a million times, every fight is the biggest of their career. Phone Post 3.0
1/10/14 11:58 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Pyro1991
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/25/12
Posts: 11
Anderson. Phone Post 3.0
1/10/14 1:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SevenLeggedSpider
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/20/09
Posts: 20419
 
 
gokudamus stole my name iv - So?

Let me get this straight, where exactly is Anderson on your list? Below Fedor, below Igor...I assume below Randy Couture, because he beat loads of guys much bigger than himself...below Cain for sure, below Dan Henderson too maybe?

Where exactly do you put the guy with the most title defenses in MMA history?
 
Lol, you asked me, and I told you.
 
That's your elaborate indefensable counter argument?
 

"So"

 

That's up there with, "I know you are but what am I"

 

I think you put more emphasis on accomplishments, than you do of fighting dangerous opponents.

Anderson Silva is arguably more accomplished than Randy and Dan and Cain, but could he whoop there ass?  Maybe Dan Henderson at 205.

 

But Randy Couture vs Anderson, I see Randy taking him down and keeping him there and winning by ground n pound. Randy > Chael.

 

Now since you put more emphasis on title defenses, will you keep that same "orcus consistency" that you are renown for, and you would give us your opinion that Jose Aldo is better than Fedor because he has more title defenses right?  Same for Matt Hughes, same for Miguel Torres?

1/10/14 1:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SevenLeggedSpider
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/20/09
Posts: 20420

"I don't think that tying a belt around your waste, or setting a world record is that important in life.

It's really about what is inside a person. How other people see you, and how you influence them."-Fedor

1/10/14 2:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80179
sparkuri - 
gokudamus stole my name iv -
sparkuri - 
gokudamus stole my name iv - So?

Let me get this straight, where exactly is Anderson on your list? Below Fedor, below Igor...I assume below Randy Couture, because he beat loads of guys much bigger than himself...below Cain for sure, below Dan Henderson too maybe?

Where exactly do you put the guy with the most title defenses in MMA history?
Imo, title defenses mean nothing.
Not for Fedor, Anderson, Hughes, GSP, or anybody else.
It's about the obstacles a man overcomes.
"Title defenses" is window dressing. Phone Post 3.0

Title defenses imply several things: that you're fighting a higher level of competition on average than someone in a non-title fight is; that you have more pressure; and that you have less motivation.
I'm not addressing what it implies, I'm addressing the truth of the matter.
Pressure is relative and nearly impossible to differentiate.
Ask any fighter and you've heard it a million times, every fight is the biggest of their career. Phone Post 3.0

You are addressing what it implies, because there is no "truth" to the statement "title defenses mean nothing". Aside from being just another opinion -- like everything else in this discussion -- it's actually literally UN-true, because a title defense MEANS that you're defending the title. It means you're the champion. It means that you're recognized as being the best and/or most accomplished fighter in your promotion.

You are ALWAYS addressing implications in ANY of these arguments. What does fighting bigger opponents "mean"? You give Fedor GOAT because you think fighting bigger guys IMPLIES fighting guys who are harder to beat, and thus the IMPLICATION is that wins over those guys are greater accomplishments.
1/10/14 2:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80180
"That's your elaborate indefensable counter argument?
"So"
That's up there with, "I know you are but what am I""

No, it's asking for some explanation as to the significance of Fedor beating more guys "a lot bigger" than Anderson. You made your statement as though it were some kind of argument-closer.

"I think you put more emphasis on accomplishments, than you do of fighting dangerous opponents."

Who proved to be more dangerous to Fedor: Nogueira or Schilt? Henderson or Ogawa? Werdum or Zulu? Crocop or Herring? Who proved more dangerous to Dan Henderson: Gilbert Yvel and Fedor, or Vitor Belfort and Anderson Silva? Who proved more dangerous to Cain Velasquez, Bigfoot or JDS? Who proved more dangerous to Randy Couture, Tony Halme and Gabriel Gonzaga and Tim Sylvia or Chuck Liddell and Enson Inoue?

"Anderson Silva is arguably more accomplished than Randy and Dan and Cain, but could he whoop there ass? Maybe Dan Henderson at 205."

He could and did whip Dan's ass. Not sure about the other two, but I'm not sure if you're aware of this: They are in different divisions.

"Now since you put more emphasis on title defenses,"

More emphasis than I do on what? Enlighten me. I was merely curious as to just how many fighters outranked, in your estimation, the fighter with the most title defenses in MMA history, and if that list included guys he actually already beat.
1/10/14 3:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SevenLeggedSpider
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/20/09
Posts: 20427

1.Now since you put more emphasis on title defenses, will you keep that same "orcus consistency" that you are renown for, and you would give us your opinion that Jose Aldo is better than Fedor because he has more title defenses right?  Same for Matt Hughes, same for Miguel Torres?

 

2.You just named FIVE opponents of Fedor who were bigger than Fedor. Now see if you can name me 5 opponents who were bigger than Anderson by the same comparison.

 

3.  You cannot say that all of Fedor's opponents were equal in skill. You cannot say that all of Anderson's opponents were equal in skill.  You can however say, that what some of Fedor's opponents lacked in skill, they had the added variable of size either in weight, height, reach or combination of the three.  Can you say that for Anderson's opponents who lacked skill?

 

 

Notice this is the first time I'm engaging you in a Fedor debate in a long time. We have done this countless times, I have owned you so many times it's why it's not even fun any more. But your persistence backs you into a corner that I'm anxious to see how you try to weasel your way out of it.   

1/10/14 6:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sparkuri
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/4/08
Posts: 15871
gokudamus stole my name iv -
sparkuri - 
gokudamus stole my name iv -
sparkuri - 
gokudamus stole my name iv - So?

Let me get this straight, where exactly is Anderson on your list? Below Fedor, below Igor...I assume below Randy Couture, because he beat loads of guys much bigger than himself...below Cain for sure, below Dan Henderson too maybe?

Where exactly do you put the guy with the most title defenses in MMA history?
Imo, title defenses mean nothing.
Not for Fedor, Anderson, Hughes, GSP, or anybody else.
It's about the obstacles a man overcomes.
"Title defenses" is window dressing. Phone Post 3.0

Title defenses imply several things: that you're fighting a higher level of competition on average than someone in a non-title fight is; that you have more pressure; and that you have less motivation.
I'm not addressing what it implies, I'm addressing the truth of the matter.
Pressure is relative and nearly impossible to differentiate.
Ask any fighter and you've heard it a million times, every fight is the biggest of their career. Phone Post 3.0

You are addressing what it implies, because there is no "truth" to the statement "title defenses mean nothing". Aside from being just another opinion -- like everything else in this discussion -- it's actually literally UN-true, because a title defense MEANS that you're defending the title. It means you're the champion. It means that you're recognized as being the best and/or most accomplished fighter in your promotion.

You are ALWAYS addressing implications in ANY of these arguments. What does fighting bigger opponents "mean"? You give Fedor GOAT because you think fighting bigger guys IMPLIES fighting guys who are harder to beat, and thus the IMPLICATION is that wins over those guys are greater accomplishments.
I guaranfuckingtee Fedor beating Hong Man Choi was more impressive than Anderson beating 20+ of his opponents.
In fact, HMC woulda likely knocked Anderson TFO.
Fedor got handed opponents all shapes and sizes with little time to prepare.
Anderson fought in one division and was given months, if not a year to prepare.
Anderson lost to scrubs, ragtagged by Chael fucking Sonnen, and beat twice by a guy half the planet had never heard of, and was brought in to lose, just to avoid Belfort 7.0.
Fedor in his prime throws Anderson out of the arena 9/10 times.
I believe Andy himself said this, along with 73% of his own fucking countrymen.
The problem is, slightly weaker minds let Zuffa "public relations" wear your little minds down for several years until you finally say, "yeah, I guess Anderson is the baddest fighter ever", after a thorough standup asswhooping of Stephan Bonnar and Forrest Griffin.
Difference is, organizations didn't propagate Fedor's greatness, the declaration was made by the people and for the people, you whalewatching treehugging granola eating moron.
(But I totally respect your argument) Phone Post 3.0
1/10/14 6:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GelderdEnd
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/3/11
Posts: 2288
Subd for later Phone Post 3.0
1/10/14 7:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Raezor19
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/09
Posts: 3318

I'd say GSP because he went out without being completely exposed as shot.....

I know all you guys think he lost but it was still a decision decided by 1 round not the devestating ko's the other 2 took.......

just my opinion......so no need to get sandy about it...

1/10/14 7:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80181
"Now since you put more emphasis on title defenses, will you keep that same "orcus consistency" that you are renown for, and you would give us your opinion that Jose Aldo is better than Fedor because he has more title defenses right? Same for Matt Hughes, same for Miguel Torres?"

Since you just cut and pasted your question again, I'll cut and paste the response I already gave: More emphasis than I do on what? Enlighten me. I was merely curious as to just how many fighters outranked, in your estimation, the fighter with the most title defenses in MMA history, and if that list included guys he actually already beat.

"I have owned you so many times"

lol

"You just named FIVE opponents of Fedor who were bigger than Fedor. Now see if you can name me 5 opponents who were bigger than Anderson by the same comparison."

No. And again: So?

" You can however say, that what some of Fedor's opponents lacked in skill, they had the added variable of size either in weight, height, reach or combination of the three. Can you say that for Anderson's opponents who lacked skill?"

First of all, your language is misleading. Usually "what they lacked in x" implies "they made up with y". In this case, they did NOT make up with size what they lacked in skill. Otherwise, they'd have been top fighters. They would have a list of significant wins to their names. Yet, they don't.

I don't consider Anderson's opponents who lacked skill. Why would I? Anderson isn't a GOAT contender because he beat Patrick Cote, just like GSP's win over Dan Hardy does nothing for him. But to play along, what those guys lacked in certain skills -- although they are certainly more skilled in MMA than Zulu etc -- they may have made up for with speed or toughness etc. You have failed time and time again to substantiate your insistence that we should give more "points" for beating bigger guys.
1/10/14 8:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/10/14 11:30 PM
Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80182
"I guaranfuckingtee Fedor beating Hong Man Choi was more impressive than Anderson beating 20+ of his opponents."

Really? You guarantee it? To whom? Because it certainly wasn't more impressive to me, or to many others.

"In fact, HMC woulda likely knocked Anderson TFO."

Obviously. He was getting outstruck by Jose Fucking Canseco until Jose blew his knee out, but he would KTFO of Anderson Silva. Your delusion that this is the case, or that HMC is somehow a dangerous MMA opponent for anyone above welterweight, pretty much invalidates any arguments you can make. The guy had zero wrestling, zero ground game, does that sound like a recipe for MMA success?

"Fedor got handed opponents all shapes and sizes with little time to prepare."

Who gives a fuck? And how did you reach this conclusion anyway? Every fight had to be negotiated for tooth and nail with his management by all accounts from every organization he has signed with. Don't pretend he was taking on all-comers with no say in the matter.

"Anderson fought in one division and was given months, if not a year to prepare."

Cool!

"Anderson lost to scrubs, ragtagged by Chael fucking Sonnen, and beat twice by a guy half the planet had never heard of, and was brought in to lose, just to avoid Belfort 7.0."

Fedor while ranked #1 lost to a guy who was barely in the top 10 and then lost to another guy whom Anderson tooled who was not even ranked at HW, because he weighed 207 in jeans. And lol @ the delusional mindset that would say Weidman was "brought in to lose" when virtually EVERY fighter in the UFC picked Weidman to win, and all the fans knew Weidman was a dangerous style matchup for Anderson (or for anyone, for that matter). But let me get this straight: You thought that after their champ was "ragtagged by Chael Sonnen", they decided to have Chris Weidman -- a huge middleweight with the highest takedown success rate in the UFC, who had never been taken down in MMA, never lost, had KO power, excellent GnP, and top notch grappling -- "brought in to lose"?

Do you read what you write? Are you embarassed at what you just said? Again: Think about how you JUST SAID Anderson was "ragtagged by Chael Sonnen", and then how you followed that up with Chris Weidman being "brought in to lose" so that Anderson wouldn't have to lose to a guy he already KTFO in the first round. Try to think about if that makes any kind of sense, or if the only way you could have typed it were if you were desperately trying to make Anderson sound as bad as possible, truth and accuracy be damned.

And lol some more @ avoiding Belfort. Anderson KTFO of Belfort in the first round with a Steven Seagal special when Vitor was coming in off quick KOs of Rich Franklin, Matt Lindland, and Terry Martin and was undefeated at 185. But yeah, after KOing him with a showboat technique, Anderson probably became paralyzed with fear after Vitor KO'd Akiyama and choked out Anthony Johnson. Are you seriously retarded?


"Difference is, organizations didn't propagate Fedor's greatness, the declaration was made by the people and for the people, you whalewatching treehugging granola eating moron."

lol...you bought into Fedor being the greatest of all time hook line and sinker. You saw him crush giant dudes like Zulu in seconds, and you have been fooled into thinking that's more impressive than "Anderson beating 20 of his opponents". How did you get that idea if not by promotional magic? Can you point to some results in MMA that support your claim that giants like Zulu and HMC or even Schilt are big wins because of their size, or are fearsome opponents because of it? Remind me what their records were and who they beat leading up to and after fighting Fedor?

What really put Fedor over the top in your eyes? Beating Nog, who was invincible? Why did you think Nog was invincible, because he beat Bob Sapp who never beat anybody? Because he beat Mark Coleman who had one win worth any kind of a shit in seven fucking years? How did you conclude all these guys were unbeatable if not for promotional hocus pocus?

Here's a serious question: Which good heavyweights do you think would not steamroll the "giants" that Fedor beat? Let's say Cain, JDS, Cormier, Werdum, Bigfoot, Barnett, Nogueira, fuck throw Randy in there too. Which of them do you think would lose to Zulu, Schilt, HMC, Ogawa, Sylvia (at the time Fedor fought him)? Any of them? Give me a fucking break. If every HW worth a damn would beat those guys, then how do you have the gall to use them as deciding factors in a GOAT discussion?
1/10/14 8:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80183
Raezor19 - 

I'd say GSP because he went out without being completely exposed as shot.....

I know all you guys think he lost but it was still a decision decided by 1 round not the devestating ko's the other 2 took.......

just my opinion......so no need to get sandy about it...


GSP is certainly a strong contender in the discussion.
1/10/14 8:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FETT_GayFerPayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 24689
D241: Can you just give a direct answer to where you put Anderson on the GOAT list???

Seems like you have Fedor Igor Randy...who else above him? Phone Post 3.0
1/10/14 8:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lex_o
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/29/12
Posts: 562
Can't they just fight? Andy ain't the champ and their both older Phone Post 3.0
1/10/14 8:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80184
FETT_GayFerPayNINJA - D241: Can you just give a direct answer to where you put Anderson on the GOAT list???

Seems like you have Fedor Igor Randy...who else above him? Phone Post 3.0

Most heavyweights have to routinely fight guys with 20+ pounds on them, so presumably virtually every heavyweight must be above Anderson.
1/10/14 9:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
1BL0Wko
48 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/11/06
Posts: 5326
Fedor Phone Post 3.0
1/10/14 10:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MMAO
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/4/13
Posts: 107
MMA Observer

It's an impossible question to answer. There are a lot of them in life. Dead heat in history.

1/10/14 10:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SevenLeggedSpider
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/10/14 10:16 PM
Member Since: 11/20/09
Posts: 20444
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Now since you put more emphasis on title defenses, will you keep that same "orcus consistency" that you are renown for, and you would give us your opinion that Jose Aldo is better than Fedor because he has more title defenses right? Same for Matt Hughes, same for Miguel Torres?"

Since you just cut and pasted your question again, I'll cut and paste the response I already gave: More emphasis than I do on what? Enlighten me. I was merely curious as to just how many fighters outranked, in your estimation, the fighter with the most title defenses in MMA history, and if that list included guys he actually already beat.

"I have owned you so many times"

lol

"You just named FIVE opponents of Fedor who were bigger than Fedor. Now see if you can name me 5 opponents who were bigger than Anderson by the same comparison."

No. And again: So?

" You can however say, that what some of Fedor's opponents lacked in skill, they had the added variable of size either in weight, height, reach or combination of the three. Can you say that for Anderson's opponents who lacked skill?"

First of all, your language is misleading. Usually "what they lacked in x" implies "they made up with y". In this case, they did NOT make up with size what they lacked in skill. Otherwise, they'd have been top fighters. They would have a list of significant wins to their names. Yet, they don't.

I don't consider Anderson's opponents who lacked skill. Why would I? Anderson isn't a GOAT contender because he beat Patrick Cote, just like GSP's win over Dan Hardy does nothing for him. But to play along, what those guys lacked in certain skills -- although they are certainly more skilled in MMA than Zulu etc -- they may have made up for with speed or toughness etc. You have failed time and time again to substantiate your insistence that we should give more "points" for beating bigger guys.

 

Where is UFC98Newb to see this weak ass reply.

 

 

This is yet another example of how you are owned, because when you look at my questions, then look at how far off you go to avoid answering them directly, it's quite obvious you are talking out your buttocks, as usual.

 

Would give us your opinion that Jose Aldo is better than Fedor because he has more title defenses right? Same for Matt Hughes, same for Miguel Torres?

That's a simple yes or no answer. The fact you go at lengths to reply without answering speaks for itself.

You try to be come off so smart but are so dumb when you give these ridiculous answers. Since you want to play that way, let me break it down in RETARD form so you cannot dicktuck anymore.

JDS had to beat Shane Carwin to become the champion. JDS was not the champion, this was not a title defense. When JDS was champion, he defended the belt against Frank Mir.   

Do you think beating Frank Mir as a title defense is GREATER than beating Shane Carwin to become the champion?(SIMPLE yes or no answer)

 

 

" You can however say, that what some of Fedor's opponents lacked in skill, they had the added variable of size either in weight, height, reach or combination of the three. Can you say that for Anderson's opponents who lacked skill?"

Actually you CONVENIENTLY left out a certain part of my quote for Agenda purposes: You cannot say that all of Fedor's opponents were equal in skill. You cannot say that all of Anderson's opponents were equal in skill.  You can however say, that what some of Fedor's opponents lacked in skill, they had the added variable of size either in weight, height, reach or combination of the three.  Can you say that for Anderson's opponents who lacked skill?

"orcus-First of all, your language is misleading. Usually "what they lacked in x" implies "they made up with y". In this case, they did NOT make up with size what they lacked in skill. Otherwise, they'd have been top fighters. They would have a list of significant wins to their names. Yet, they don't."

 

 

This is why I don't argue with you. I have learned all your angles, and I have used your own opinions, and have asked you to use the same logic on your opinions across the board, which you consistently CANNOT do, which is why you give these ridiculous long winded answers saying a whole lot of nothing.

 

Don't even bother replying to this, and just know I'm going back to quoting 2003-2007 orcus so that people can at least see you weren't always a crazy crazy weird Fedor hater.

 

1/10/14 10:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80187
"Would give us your opinion that Jose Aldo is better than Fedor because he has more title defenses right? Same for Matt Hughes, same for Miguel Torres?"

No. Can you point me to where I said title defenses outweigh everything else? What exactly did I say title defenses outweigh?

"Do you think beating Frank Mir as a title defense is GREATER than beating Shane Carwin to become the champion?(SIMPLE yes or no answer)"

Nope.

"Actually you CONVENIENTLY left out a certain part of my quote for Agenda purposes: You cannot say that all of Fedor's opponents were equal in skill. You cannot say that all of Anderson's opponents were equal in skill. You can however say, that what some of Fedor's opponents lacked in skill, they had the added variable of size either in weight, height, reach or combination of the three. Can you say that for Anderson's opponents who lacked skill?"

I didn't leave that out at all. In the very next paragraph, I said that I don't really count Anderson's less skilled opponents, just like GSP's win over Dan Hardy does almost nothing for him in the GOAT conversation.

Is this your idea of "owning" me? Blatantly failing to read or understand what I write and then accusing me of ducking your brilliant questions? lol.

What's hilarious is I just pointed out how I already answered the questions I was supposedly avoiding. Meanwhile, you repeatedly fail to answer ANY questions. So I'll ask them again:

Who are all the fighters you have above Anderson as GOAT?

What exactly do you believe is the significance of Anderson not beating guys a couple inches taller?

Which legitimately good heavyweights would you pick to lose to Zulu, Ogawa, Schilt, Hunt, HMC at the time Fedor fought them?

If being big outweighs the lack of skills for those guys, why did they not have more success in MMA when they had such size advantages over most of their opponents?
1/10/14 11:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
onepunchJD
62 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/10/04
Posts: 5109
gokudamus stole my name iv - 
sparkuri - 
gokudamus stole my name iv -
sparkuri - 
gokudamus stole my name iv - So?

Let me get this straight, where exactly is Anderson on your list? Below Fedor, below Igor...I assume below Randy Couture, because he beat loads of guys much bigger than himself...below Cain for sure, below Dan Henderson too maybe?

Where exactly do you put the guy with the most title defenses in MMA history?
Imo, title defenses mean nothing.
Not for Fedor, Anderson, Hughes, GSP, or anybody else.
It's about the obstacles a man overcomes.
"Title defenses" is window dressing. Phone Post 3.0

Title defenses imply several things: that you're fighting a higher level of competition on average than someone in a non-title fight is; that you have more pressure; and that you have less motivation.
I'm not addressing what it implies, I'm addressing the truth of the matter.
Pressure is relative and nearly impossible to differentiate.
Ask any fighter and you've heard it a million times, every fight is the biggest of their career. Phone Post 3.0

You are addressing what it implies, because there is no "truth" to the statement "title defenses mean nothing". Aside from being just another opinion -- like everything else in this discussion -- it's actually literally UN-true, because a title defense MEANS that you're defending the title. It means you're the champion. It means that you're recognized as being the best and/or most accomplished fighter in your promotion.

You are ALWAYS addressing implications in ANY of these arguments. What does fighting bigger opponents "mean"? You give Fedor GOAT because you think fighting bigger guys IMPLIES fighting guys who are harder to beat, and thus the IMPLICATION is that wins over those guys are greater accomplishments.

Its not really about the bigger guys Fedor fought being harder to beat, its about the fact that he was more than willing to fight them.

People ignorantly say that Fedor fought hand-picked opponents as if there was some grand plan to pad his record. The fact is that the heavyweights that Fedor dominated were the best in the world at the time. The ONLY HW that Fedor didn't fight who posed a serious threat was Josh Barnett. Fedor tried to fight Barnett, so that missed opportunity was not his fault.... and please don't mention Couture and Mir because anybody who pays even a little bit of attention knows that Fedor was a horrible matchup for both of those guys.

Fedor's wins over Big Nog and CroCop are really what cement his legacy as the top HW of his era. Wins over Arlovski and Sylvia served to solidify that status, especially since they were dominant and decisive victories.

Anderson does not necessarily lose points for cutting to middleweight for most of his career... but he doesn't gain any either. There is no doubt that Anderson took the best advantage he could by cutting down as far as he realistically could and still be effective. His LHW fights were impressive... but certainly not against top LHW contenders at the time. Had ANderson made the jump to LHW several years ago(like he should have after he cleaned out 185)... I seriously doubt he would have dominated. The bigger, stronger, better wrestlers @ 205 would have been difficult for Anderson to dominate with any consistency. I'm sure he would have won some fights, but I doubt he would have won the belt. He struggled against Sonnen on the ground, and 205 is a murderers row of powerful wrestlers who do much more damage than Sonnen on the ground. Wins over LHWs at 185, Hendo and Belfort, were certainly impressive... but also fights it can be argued would be VERY dangerous for Anderson if they re-matched.

I personally think both Belfort and Hendo could and would beat Anderson at 205 (a weight Anderson fits very comfortably in). Of course, this is only speculation... but its how I see it.

My long-winded point is this.....

It is hard for me to rank Anderson as the GOAT, when he ruled over a historically weak division. The handful of wins that define his greatness (Franklin, Hendo, Belfort), are no greater than the handful of wins that define Fedor's (Nog, Mirko, Arlovski, Sylvia). They are both in the GOAT conversation, but to me a HW automatically gets bonus points just for being a HW. Plus, Fedor was realistically undefeated for a longer period of time, during an era that was closer to pure "NHB" than the modern "MMA" of the UFC.

It is also hard to be overly impressed with Anderson when viewing him next to fighters like Wandy and Hendo who would proudly take on all comers. Wandy had the balls to go toe-to-toe with HWs like Hunt and CroCop, while Hendo had the balls to fight HW greats like Big Nog and Fedor. These guys took the fights, and the risks, just because that is the kind of "fighters" they truly are, deep down. --- I just don't see Anderson willing to take on those risks. Anderson was much more willing to talk about a superfight with the smaller GSP, while he avioded any serious talks about fighting the bigger John Jones. This does make sense... Ithink Anderson beats GSP and loses to Jones. But avoiding Jones doesn't earn him any bonus points.

Its all a matter of opinion really. Some of us more old-school guys view drastic weight-cutting as a type of cop-out. While it certainly makes sense from a strategic perspective... it doesn't earn any points in the "balls" category.

I rank Anderson in the top 5 greatest fighters ever. He pretty much has to be there. I also rank him as the greatest middleweight of all time. BUT... Fedor's run is still more impressive to me. I also consider Vanderlei Silva's dominant run in Pride to be more impressive than Anderson's in the UFC.

Its all a matter of opinion really. But Fedor would have fought anybody, even much larger fighters. Anderson picked and chose his LHW opponents just as much as people accuse Fedor of "handpicking" opponents.

Muhammad Ali is arguably "greater" than Sugar Ray Robinson..... mostly because Ali was a heavyweight. The best HW fighter is the best fighter period, and the "greatest" HW gets more "greatness" points than the greatest middleweight.

Thats my rant :)
1/10/14 11:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
onepunchJD
62 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/10/04
Posts: 5110
Should have been "Wanderlei"....

OOPS!!
1/10/14 11:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gokudamus stole my name iv
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 80189
"The fact is that the heavyweights that Fedor dominated were the best in the world at the time."

Are you saying with a straight face that Fujita, Ogawa, Zulu, Hunt, Randleman were the best HWs in the world at the time Fedor fought them?

"Fedor's wins over Big Nog and CroCop are really what cement his legacy as the top HW of his era. "

Those are certainly the most impressive wins of his career without question. I don't think anyone can even argue that, which is why it's funny when some just keep harping on fighting the "big guys". There's a reason Nog and Crocop are Fedor's biggest wins by a country mile and why none of those "giants" are EVER mentioned in a discussion of the best heavyweights.

"205 is a murderers row of powerful wrestlers who do much more damage than Sonnen on the ground. "

It is? Other than Jon Jones, who on earth are you describing?

"I personally think both Belfort and Hendo could and would beat Anderson at 205 (a weight Anderson fits very comfortably in)."

Why is that? Since you no doubt think Anderson is "naturally" bigger than both guys, and thus must logically be cutting more than they are at 185, why do you think they would have the advantage with less of a cut?

" Some of us more old-school guys view drastic weight-cutting as a type of cop-out."

What do you consider "drastic"? That is, what would a guy have to weigh on fight night for a middleweight fight for you to consider him to have cut "drastic" weight?

"But Fedor would have fought anybody, even much larger fighters. "

The same goes for all heavyweights.

"Muhammad Ali is arguably "greater" than Sugar Ray Robinson..... mostly because Ali was a heavyweight. "

Not many serious boxing historians would agree with you.

"the "greatest" HW gets more "greatness" points than the greatest middleweight."

This is actually the exact opposite of the whole point of "GOAT" or "p4p" talks.
1/10/14 11:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SevenLeggedSpider
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/20/09
Posts: 20457
I use your words and angles, and use them against you. For instance I say things like
 
SevenLeggedSpider - 

I think you put more emphasis on accomplishments, than you do of fighting dangerous opponents.

And you come out of left field with "when did I say title defenses outweigh everything else"? Who the hell said you said they outweigh everything else? This is you trying to put words I did not say
 
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Can you point me to where I said title defenses outweigh everything else? What exactly did I say title defenses outweigh?
READINGCOMPREHENSION. I said you put more empahsis on accomplishments(such as title defenses), and your genius self tries to make it seem like I am the one saying you said title defenses outweight everything else.
 
 
gokudamus stole my name iv - 
Fedor fought 1-3 top 5 contenders a year? Really? That's weird because he only had three title defenses in his entire career and one of those was a rematch. Who were these top 5 contenders? Zulu? Coleman? Randleman? Hunt? Ogawa? Goodridge? Fujita? Can you show me any rankings that had any of them in the top 5?
 
 
gokudamus stole my name iv - Title defenses imply several things: that you're fighting a higher level of competition on average than someone in a non-title fight is; that you have more pressure; and that you have less motivation.
 
 

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.