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UnderGround Forums >> Fedor versus Anderson: Who is the GOAT?


1/6/14 8:07 PM
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Captfireeyes
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Proteus The Invincible - It's disappointing to see that Zuffa still has posters trying to discredit Fedor to this day.
I've seen many Fedor supporters (myself included) give Anderson respect as the #2 and I don't fault anyone who does chose Anderson as their GOAT. But for some people to claim to enjoy MMA and continually bash Fedor is "mind bottling". I'm not a fan of Anderson, I jumped up and cheered when Weidman knocked him out. But I still hold him as #2 slightly behind Fedor, and if he comes back and beats either Weidman/Jones/GSP or who ever else is on top at the time, I will call Anderson the GOAT. People who claim "it isn't even close" one way or the other are retarded IMO and shouldn't be taken seriously as they clearly don't know what the fuck they are watching. They have probably heard BLAF say Anderson is the undisputed GOAT for so long they just don't know any better. Never doubt the intelligence (lack there of) of the casual UFC fan. Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 8:08 PM
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FETT_GayFerPayNINJA
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It's so cute when D241 and Orcus go at it. 

 

Orcus used to think Fedor was the GOAT.

Now he thinks Andy is the GOAT. 

Big fucking deal. Orcus has ALWAYS laid out long winded and specific posts as to why he felt the way he felt. Now he just feels a different way than he used to, and it conflicts with how D241 feels. 

What I find creepy is that D241 has a catalog/folder on his computer that has links to all the old threads and posts of Orcus just so he can post them all...lol. Let it go man. Orcus has changed his mind about shit. Whether he is biased for certain reasons, who knows, but he thinks Andy is the GOAT. It could be because he (like many of us) always wanted to see Fedor in the UFC against the best of the best, but his management never made it happen. Who knows, and why do you care so much?

1/6/14 8:43 PM
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Tankhead
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SevenLeggedSpider -

gokudamus stole my name iv=orcus

 

 

For newer UGers reading this thread. To summarize, orcus used to claim Fedor as the clear cut Goat many years ago, AS Fedor was doing it.

Orcus predicted many years ago, that as soon as Fedor loses and gets choked out(pretty good prediction as it was 100% accurate how he lost), Fedor would all of a sudden be considered overrated and was in a shallow division.

 

Then years later, it happened, except the funniest part, is orcus has BY FAR been the most guilty party of his own prediction years ago.  It's insanely funny.  I had to document this shit so that people could see what many of us see.

Ouch. Fucking owned. Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 9:07 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"Now you cannot form an opinion of when the changed happened, so you ask me....."

No, I simply don't remember the date at which my opinion changed. I was surprised when Mark Hunt, who had ZERO wrestling and ZERO grappling, put Fedor on his back and kept him there -- in side control, no less -- for several minutes. Even Mark said recently that he could have gotten the kimura if he'd trained grappling AT ALL at that time. And I was surprised against when Matt Lindland busted him wide open in the opening seconds and kept him helpless in the clinch, feet paddling the air like a child, relying on shameless rope grabbing to prevent the takedown. Then over time I re-evaluated Fedor's competition.

Everything happens over time. Children like you and Fedorblower like to imagine that your first opinion is always the correct one and should never change. If, as a child, you think Mark Coleman is "a beast", well then fuck, if Fedor beats Mark Coleman at 40 years old with one win worth a damn in the preceding seven years, that says Fedor is awesome!!!
1/6/14 9:26 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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gokudamus stole my name iv - No, I simply don't remember the date at which my opinion changed. I was surprised when Mark Hunt, who had ZERO wrestling and ZERO grappling, put Fedor on his back and kept him there -- in side control, no less -- for several minutes. Even Mark said recently that he could have gotten the kimura if he'd trained grappling AT ALL at that time. And I was surprised against when Matt Lindland busted him wide open in the opening seconds and kept him helpless in the clinch, feet paddling the air like a child, relying on shameless rope grabbing to prevent the takedown. Then over time I re-evaluated Fedor's competition.
Everything happens over time.
 
 
orcus - "That said, he doesn't finish, which clearly makes him less dominant in his weight class."By your logic, maybe it shows the DEPTH of the HW division because they are all so tough and hard to finish. "Aurelio was probably borderline top 10.. but he just beat #1 GOMI. this shows DEPTH in the division."lol -- why do I have the feeling that if a "borderline top 10" fighter choked out Fedor that it would show that Fedor was laughably over-rated rather than that the division has "DEPTH"? Gomi beats all the LWs = shows his dominance. Fedor beats all the HWs = shows how thin the division is. Gomi gets beat = shows depth of his division, making his dominance even more impressive. Fedor gets beat = shows he isn't that great.Todd and MrColdCock are right on -- guys like Nog, Arlovski, Crocop, possibly Alexander, Barnett, Hunt soon could all beat each other on any given night. But no one, apparently, can touch Fedor.
 
 
1/6/14 9:26 PM
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Chappie
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I have Fedor at number 1 followed by AS, but I obviously feel that a reasonable case could be made in support of positioning Silva in the top spot. It would be interesting to see who people have in their number three spot between guys such as Saku, GSP, W. Silva, Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Frank Shamrock, Jon Jones, Matt Hughes, and BJ Penn.
1/6/14 9:31 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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Whether you agree with orcus, or disagree with orcus.....you can be right, depending on the timeframes :)

1/6/14 9:48 PM
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WreckItRuss
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I can think of legit arguments for both fighters. As far as sucess from begining to end of their careers Fedor has the edge for sure but if you put them both in the cage in their prime Anderson could use his stick move destroy style as long as he focuses on the move. If Fedor could get his mits on him though via striking or grappling that could take away Silvas mystique. These questions are fun but always just lead in circles. So my answer? Fedors lack of a UFC appearance leaves too many question marks

1/6/14 9:55 PM
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onepunchJD
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX - they are both pretty close IMO.

both have losses and both dominated in the most impressive fashion possible.

but one dominated the 85%+ finishing rate HW division for 10 yrs and one dominated the weakest MW division for 7 yrs.

and for the 100th time, to those mentioning the "cans" Fedor fought. those were EXTRA fights! he fought 3-5 times a year while Andy/GSP fight 1-2 times a yr. SOOOOOOOOOOO Fedor fought his 1-3 top 5 contenders, PLUS a couple EXTRA Freak show fights on top. THAT should give him EXTRA points, not hurt his legacy.

during their primes, GSP fought ONE time a yr TWICE. Fedor fought (& finished most) FIVE times a year FOUR Times.

you can say GSP had tougher comp, but not really. Fedor was fighting his top comp JUST as much as GSP, but with EXTRA Freak show fights in there.

if GSP fought a couple giants/freaks in between his top contender fights, the TUF Noobs would swing on his nuts SOOOOOOOOO Hard it would be unbearable on here. but somehow Fedor gets no credit for it.

Good post, and true.
1/6/14 9:57 PM
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onepunchJD
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Funaki Masakatsu #1 - Fedor was WIDELY considered the GOAT before BLAF started a slander campaign against Fedor, smearing and discrediting all of his amazing, unmatched accomplishments in an attempt to devalue Fedor because of business reasons.

Many post PRIDE era fans bought into this garbage because they take everything BLAF, a great promoter, says as gospel and started parroting the "Fedor hasn't fought anybody since 2006" and "Fedor dodged top competition" trash.

The aura of invincibility Fedor had and the majestic atmosphere surrounding his matches was incredible during Fedor's reign. Watching Anderson Silva during his reign was special, too, but Anderson didn't have the same aura because he had been choked out by Takase and leg locked by Chonan. Fedor was undefeated and he seemed invincible. He was the terminator, a emotionless cyborg killer who never made fatal mistakes and always won.

Fedor losing three straight at the very end of his career, where his body was worn down with injuries, his heart wasn't fully in it, he was training soft/falling into bad habits, combined with crazy things like religious fasting damaging his athleticism, takes absolutely nothing away from his majestic run as the undefeated, unquestioned greatest fighter in the sport.

Silva is great, but Fedor is the greatest. Phone Post 3.0

THIS.

All day long.
1/6/14 9:58 PM
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Captfireeyes
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WreckItRuss -

I can think of legit arguments for both fighters. As far as sucess from begining to end of their careers Fedor has the edge for sure but if you put them both in the cage in their prime Anderson could use his stick move destroy style as long as he focuses on the move. If Fedor could get his mits on him though via striking or grappling that could take away Silvas mystique. These questions are fun but always just lead in circles. So my answer? Fedors lack of a UFC appearance leaves too many question marks

So Fedor can beat 5 UFC champions, and the two heavyweights he lost to are arguably top 5 in the UFC. But he can't be considered the greatest unless he fights in the octagon?

Remember when everyone said WEC fighters sucked and couldn't hang with the UFC guys? Pettis, Bendo, Cerone, Condit, Stann?

Or what about the Strikeforce guys who would get slaughtered by the guys at the top of the UFC? Gilbert, Thompson, Shields, Jacare?

Beating great fighters is what matters, not where you beat them. The mythical "UFC level" has been complete horseshit for a while now, but you still hear idiots parrot what Dana tells them too.

And by the way, you have a blue name, this is your first post and you are discrediting Fedor... Wanna know how I know you're a paid zuffa shill? Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 9:59 PM
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Athletic Performance Inc
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I got the Last Emperor as the GOAT
1/6/14 10:03 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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WreckItRuss - 

I can think of legit arguments for both fighters. As far as sucess from begining to end of their careers Fedor has the edge for sure but if you put them both in the cage in their prime Anderson could use his stick move destroy style as long as he focuses on the move. If Fedor could get his mits on him though via striking or grappling that could take away Silvas mystique. These questions are fun but always just lead in circles. So my answer? Fedors lack of a UFC appearance leaves too many question marks


Lol, dude this was a normal post until that last line.

That last line is funny to me.

 

If you are a boxing fan, do you use the same logic?

Meaning would you make the difference maker be the promotion in which they competed in instead of comparing who they beat?

 

That's like saying

"Sugar Ray Robinson was great, I can see why people think he's the greatest, but he never fought for Don King Promotions, where as Muhammad Ali did. Therefor, I put into question the caliber of fighters Robinson went up against since he was never promoted by Don King".

 

Does that sound ridiculous to you?

 

 

 

1/6/14 10:06 PM
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onepunchJD
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VinegarStrokes - 
Captfireeyes - 
sa80teur - "What the ancients called a clever fighter was not one who wins, but excels in winning with ease. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War.

Anderson. Phone Post 3.0
If winning with ease is how you judge the GOAT, wouldn't you have to pick Fedor, as he arguably never lost a round during his 10 undefeated streak? Phone Post 3.0

If winning with ease is the way you judge it. The the ONLY answer is GSP. No unavenged losses. A much harder list of competition overall than either Anderson or Fedor. 


If GSP won so "easily", then why did he fail to finish like 11 straight fights?

GSP was and is an amazing fighter, no question.

But for my taste, any GOAT candidate should have finished opponents consistently.

The goal of a "fight" should always be to finish your opponent as quickly as possible. Modern MMA is a sport, but it is also a fight.

It seems that many have forgotten that in favor of counting strikes and takedowns.

Both Fedor and Anderson finished fights on a regular basis.
1/6/14 10:13 PM
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Captfireeyes
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SevenLeggedSpider -
WreckItRuss - 

I can think of legit arguments for both fighters. As far as sucess from begining to end of their careers Fedor has the edge for sure but if you put them both in the cage in their prime Anderson could use his stick move destroy style as long as he focuses on the move. If Fedor could get his mits on him though via striking or grappling that could take away Silvas mystique. These questions are fun but always just lead in circles. So my answer? Fedors lack of a UFC appearance leaves too many question marks


Lol, dude this was a normal post until that last line.

That last line is funny to me.

 

If you are a boxing fan, do you use the same logic?

Meaning would you make the difference maker be the promotion in which they competed in instead of comparing who they beat?

 

That's like saying

"Sugar Ray Robinson was great, I can see why people think he's the greatest, but he never fought for Don King Promotions, where as Muhammad Ali did. Therefor, I put into question the caliber of fighters Robinson went up against since he was never promoted by Don King".

 

Does that sound ridiculous to you?

 

 

 

I find it hilarious.

Fedor beats Big Nog when he was considered the best fighter in the world. Big Nog and Fedor make it to the finals of a stacked tournament, Fedor was winning when a cut occurs via headbutt. Rematch again and Fedor dominates him again. Fast forward 13 years since Big Nog was PRIDE champ and people are still getting UFC title shots by beating him. Cain beats Nog = Title shot, Mir beats Nog = title shot, Werdum beats Nog = title shot if Cain wasn't injured. But Fedor beats him twice and was on route to three wins vs him in his prime years and Fedor still has questions because it wasn't in the octagon? Do idiots still buy into this shit? Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 10:15 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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Captfireeyes - 
WreckItRuss -

I can think of legit arguments for both fighters. As far as sucess from begining to end of their careers Fedor has the edge for sure but if you put them both in the cage in their prime Anderson could use his stick move destroy style as long as he focuses on the move. If Fedor could get his mits on him though via striking or grappling that could take away Silvas mystique. These questions are fun but always just lead in circles. So my answer? Fedors lack of a UFC appearance leaves too many question marks

So Fedor can beat 5 UFC champions, and the two heavyweights he lost to are arguably top 5 in the UFC. But he can't be considered the greatest unless he fights in the octagon?

Remember when everyone said WEC fighters sucked and couldn't hang with the UFC guys? Pettis, Bendo, Cerone, Condit, Stann?

Or what about the Strikeforce guys who would get slaughtered by the guys at the top of the UFC? Gilbert, Thompson, Shields, Jacare?

Beating great fighters is what matters, not where you beat them. The mythical "UFC level" has been complete horseshit for a while now, but you still hear idiots parrot what Dana tells them too.

And by the way, you have a blue name, this is your first post and you are discrediting Fedor... Wanna know how I know you're a paid zuffa shill? Phone Post 3.0

It's also worth pointing out that

26 Pride FC - Shockwave Dynamite! August 28, 2002 Tokyo National Stadium TokyoJapan 91,107
When Pride was the #1 mma organization, it sold out arena's that sit over 90,000 fans.

It's 2014, and UFC has still not sold a venue as big as what Pride was doing a dozen years ago. They haven't even come close to filling an arena the size of Saitama Arena like Pride FC did.

 

The other thing worth pointing out is the argument of Goat where as if it's not Fedor, it's Anderson, how does Anderson losing in Pride but Fedor being undefeated make it more of an accomplishment for Anderson?

All of a sudden when Anderson goes to a different organization, nevermind his wins against the Brazilian Killer Alex Steibling, or his knockout of Carlos Newton, nope, now Anderson has arrived because he beat Chris Leben.....b/c it was in the UFC???

 

1/6/14 10:23 PM
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onepunchJD
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WreckItRuss - 

I can think of legit arguments for both fighters. As far as sucess from begining to end of their careers Fedor has the edge for sure but if you put them both in the cage in their prime Anderson could use his stick move destroy style as long as he focuses on the move. If Fedor could get his mits on him though via striking or grappling that could take away Silvas mystique. These questions are fun but always just lead in circles. So my answer? Fedors lack of a UFC appearance leaves too many question marks


LOL

When Fedor was dominating in Pride, Pride was the top MMA organization; especially in the HW division.

1/6/14 10:24 PM
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onepunchJD
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One can argue that there is no true GOAT, because there are too many variables and differences of opinion concerning the definition.

That said, if there is a GOAT, it pretty much has to be Fedor, IMO.
1/6/14 10:31 PM
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Captfireeyes
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onepunchJD -
WreckItRuss - 

I can think of legit arguments for both fighters. As far as sucess from begining to end of their careers Fedor has the edge for sure but if you put them both in the cage in their prime Anderson could use his stick move destroy style as long as he focuses on the move. If Fedor could get his mits on him though via striking or grappling that could take away Silvas mystique. These questions are fun but always just lead in circles. So my answer? Fedors lack of a UFC appearance leaves too many question marks


LOL

When Fedor was dominating in Pride, Pride was the top MMA organization; especially in the HW division.

There's a reason Chuck had to go to PRIDE in 2003, and it wasn't because he was the best of the best... Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 10:35 PM
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Stone Free
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Anderson = UFC GOAT

Fedor = Pride GOAT
1/6/14 11:14 PM
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CaptainAhab
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TampabayMMA - Looking back, the Goodridge fight WAS impressive. It was so one sided and quick that its taken for granted, but Goodridge was a beast on the feet and Fedor just calmly swarm-mauled him. I do remember Goodridge claiming that he had never been hit harder than by Fedor.

I think it will be remembered that Fedor switched to a heavy KO style in the twilight of his career, and it makes sense as power seems to be the last thing to go.

Its pretty clear he was the absolute all time and pnp GOAT and the three losses in a row Fedor was a shell of the cold killing machine that was prime Fedor.

He knocked down both Henderson and Werdum and was in excellent position to win both of those fights early. He lost both of those fights by being too aggressive in the followup.

I am going to play armchair psychologist here for a minute and say that the biggest difference between prime Fedor and late Fedor was that by the end, he literally believed that God had everything planned out ahead of time, and he fought like that... like someone who didn't give a solitary fuck for strategy or even self preservation.

I think his physical skills had already started to decline somewhat by the time he entered Affliction.
1/6/14 11:44 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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Although I agree Fedor was past his prime in his SF days, I do have to give Werdum some credit.

If Fedor was going to lose, I wanted someone to impose their will on him to win. Werdum didn't do that, however Werdum did plan amazingly accurately.

 

I remember reading before hand that Werdum had been practicing with King Mo about preparing to getting hit and dazed by Fedor, but to still operate on a somewhat functional level.

 

What they'd do(Werdum/Mo) is Werdum would spin around in circles real fast, getting dizzy, and then Mo would double leg him and Werdum, still dizzy from spinning, would have to immediately enter grapple mode.

It was great preparation, however Fedor got out of the first triangle but was too/over confident and stayed in Werdum's guard too long. The rest is history.

1/6/14 11:48 PM
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onepunchJD
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CaptainAhab - 
TampabayMMA - Looking back, the Goodridge fight WAS impressive. It was so one sided and quick that its taken for granted, but Goodridge was a beast on the feet and Fedor just calmly swarm-mauled him. I do remember Goodridge claiming that he had never been hit harder than by Fedor.

I think it will be remembered that Fedor switched to a heavy KO style in the twilight of his career, and it makes sense as power seems to be the last thing to go.

Its pretty clear he was the absolute all time and pnp GOAT and the three losses in a row Fedor was a shell of the cold killing machine that was prime Fedor.

He knocked down both Henderson and Werdum and was in excellent position to win both of those fights early. He lost both of those fights by being too aggressive in the followup.

I am going to play armchair psychologist here for a minute and say that the biggest difference between prime Fedor and late Fedor was that by the end, he literally believed that God had everything planned out ahead of time, and he fought like that... like someone who didn't give a solitary fuck for strategy or even self preservation.

I think his physical skills had already started to decline somewhat by the time he entered Affliction.

Good point.

This equates to Fedor not being "hungry" anymore.

Him falling in love with his hands could be viewed as a harbinger to his eventual decline. We have seen this before with other fighters, Rampage being a recent example. It is the mark of a lazy, overconfident fighter; or of one who has stopped caring as much.

Fedor fought for a long time in MMA, which has evolved very quickly as it is a young combat sport. At the top level of heavyweight MMA, where fighters continue to get bigger and better, any little edge a fighter can get is significant. No matter how tough and talented a fighter is, when he loses that hunger, it is the beginning of the end. Fighting the most dangerous men on the planet, you cannot afford to have that guy across the ring from you "want it" more. This is what I believe happened to Fedor more than anything. Sure he had some hand injuries, and was not getting younger. But I believe his physical decline was more a result of that lack of hunger manifesting itself in lazy training habits. In the end, Fedor didn't feel he had anything left to prove to himself or anyone else. He simply didn't care about his legacy as viewed by the fans, and wasn't much bothered by the idea of losing.

Of course this is all speculation based on my observations. I do not know Fedor personally. That's just the way I see it.

A fighter's "prime" is determined by more than just his age. There are many different variables, many of which the average fan is probably not aware of.

Prime Fedor was a wrecking machine at HW the likes of which we had yet to see. Watching his career unfold from the beginning was a once in a lifetime treat.

sorry for the rant :)
1/6/14 11:49 PM
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onepunchJD
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Edited: 01/06/14 11:49 PM
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error
1/6/14 11:56 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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SevenLeggedSpider - 

Whether you agree with orcus, or disagree with orcus.....you can be right, depending on the timeframes :)


lol @ this idiot saying that like it's unusual.

Tell me, genius, if I said Fedor was the best heavyweight in the world in 2003, and then I said Fedor is the best heavyweight in the world today, would I be right both times?

Anderson was the best MW last year. Is he now?

DURRRRRRRRR

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