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UnderGround Forums >> Fedor versus Anderson: Who is the GOAT?


1/7/14 11:44 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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Captfireeyes - 
ufc98newb - And for the record, I appreciate the contributions of both D241 and Orcus very much. Both excellent posters, imo.

But most of what I see in these threads is Orcus using some form of logic/reasoning to prove or disprove what he is saying. Not saying his logic infallible, but it usually comes with some reason. On the other hand, 90% of the arguments against him come not in the form of making counterpoints, but making random comments about he stalks Fedor threads and bashes him, inferring he is a know it all, but without arguing where he is wrong, bringing up posts from his past showing that he has changed his mind (weird, I know), etc.
Its been proven over and over that you can discredit ANY fighter.

Example:

Anderson has lost to Chonan and Takase. He also had wins against Marquart (now a WW) , Maia (now a WW), Lietes (got cut), Cote (also cut), Okami (cut), Vitor ( fought Anderson after a year and a half layoff), Hendo (fought for the title after a loss), Bonnar (retired), Griffin (fought aftrer a loss and is now retired) Lutter(came in fat then got cut).

Nothing I mentioned above is false. Can you not agree that if I went into every single thread about Anderson and stated the above over and over again it would at some point make me look like a jackass? Now that people have learned what Orcus' agenda is, we don't argue with him and dismiss him as an idiot. But he takes that as a "win", because "they haven't proven me wrong, I must be right!"

Its like arguing with a retard, now matter how many times you tell him, he still thinks potato comes after six. Phone Post 3.0

It's pretty simple. The counterpoint to those who say Anderson is out of GOAT talks because of losing to Chonan and Takase is "Anderson wasn't anything like the fighter he eventually became at that time. No one said he was GOAT then, for good reason." Counterpoint to "Hendo fought for the title after a loss" is "who gives a fuck? He lost in a higher weight class, he was one fight away from having been the Pride 185 *and* 205 champion, and afterwards he went on to KTFO of Fedor himself." Etc.

Now tell me, what is your reasoned counterpoint to "Fedor doesnt get special GOAT points for beating 'Olympians', because one of them was Matt Lindland who was a middleweight with zero other heavyweight fights in his career, and one was paycheck-collector Ogawa who had zero wins worth a damn and also lost to Yoshida. There are no other 'good' -- nevermind great, nevermind GOAT -- heavyweights that ANY of us would not pick to steamroll those two."

"You do realise that there isn't enough hours in the day for me to argue with every retard who says stupid shit to support their favorite fighter. "

Luckily, there ARE enough hours in the day for you to complain about "every retard" saying "stupid shit" without being able to say why it's "stupid".
1/7/14 11:45 PM
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sparkuri
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Zuluzhino would've sat on Anderson and broke all his frail bones.

There!
I said it!


*sweater dance* Phone Post 3.0
1/7/14 11:47 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"I POLITELY asked orcus to not "orcus" up my thread, because as a Fedor fan, I wanted my poll to be unbiased, and knowing him, I knew if he "orcused" it up, I would feel the need to defend Fedor.

He could not let it go."

What actually happened is that in his OP, he made some retarded and factually false comments in the "pro-Fedor" column, like saying he defended his title 10 times or some bullshit. Then, when I pointed out his errors, rather than thank me for correcting his mistakes, he got butthurt.
1/7/14 11:52 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"And for the record, I stand strongly behind my arguments that Igor is more accomplished than Anderson."

What are the records of the best guys Igor beat? What are the rankings of his best opponents? How many legit titles did Igor hold? How many title defenses? How often did he fight the next best guy in his division?

"So using those 2 measurements, I pointed out that Igor's win streak is more than twice as long as Anderson's-Fact"

I guess Travis Fulton beats them both then.

"Who he has beaten"

See above.

1/8/14 12:00 AM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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gokudamus stole my name iv - "I think it is also true that there is a large handful of many of us that you see over and over again making our points in these threads. That is nothing unique."

YEP

" Also, for the most part, I don't see him taking anything away from Fedor, but discrediting nonsense posts from his supporters."

YEP

" There are a lot of very reasonable arguments to make on behalf of the Fedor GOAT argument, but I don't think talking about him fighting guys that are bigger than him is that great of an argument."

YEP -- the "giants" he beat were ALL beaten by other small and/or mediocre fighters.

" His best wins were against similar sized people."

YEP -- his best wins by a MILE -- as in, head and shoulders above everyone else he ever beat -- were Nog and Crocop, both of whom he OUTWEIGHED.

" I don't think saying that he beat olympic medalists and 400 pound giants is a reasonable argument for why he is GOAT, but yet people bring it up. "

YEP

Someone gets it.

 
 
SevenLeggedSpider - 

It's funny how orcus tries to derail what he is guilty of.

The DIFFERENCE, is no one on this site is as dedicated at discrediting Fedor every chance they get, as orcus is. THAT, is the difference.

There isn't even a close 2nd place. Not even a close 2nd place using another fighter as an example.

 

You won't find someone who was a BJ Penn fan and had hundreds of positive things to say about him, but then all of a sudden hates BJ Penn and tries to discredit him at every turn.

You won't find someone who was a Lyoto Machida fan and had hundreds of positive things to say about him, but once they found out he's a pee drinker, they try to discredit him at every turn.

 

It's not about having Anderson over Fedor as the goat. It's about not being able to let an opportunity to discredit Fedor pass.

 

No one on this site is guilty of what orcus is guilty of.   Keep pretending like this isn't about your obsession with discrediting a legend every chance.

 
 
1/8/14 12:06 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"It's about not being able to let an opportunity to discredit Fedor pass."

No, it's about not being able to let a moronic and unsupportable statement pass.

lol @ the mindset that says "all your points are perfectly legitimate, but I don't like that you make them all the time, so I'm going to say you're crazy and I'm going to stalk you and bring up everything you ever said over 10 years every time you post -- because you're crazy, not me!"
1/8/14 12:07 AM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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Because everyone has posting habits like you orcus?

 

You just don't get it man. You are different. There's a reason why the bus you rode to school was shorter than the rest.

1/8/14 12:09 AM
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Flexo
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Aaah the good ol' GOAT threads, they're all the same. Phone Post 3.0
1/8/14 12:10 AM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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Hey, did anyone else notice what I noticed about orcus on this thread?

 

He had no idea "when" his mind changed on Fedor. It's certain and confirmed that he has, but as far as the timeline...."he can't remember".

 

But then I quote a post of his, and orcus rips off his marvel comics t-shirt, size extra small, dun dun dun duunnnn, it's "Super memory orcus to the rescue", and he remembers that a quote of his years ago was "sarcasm".

 

Then in regards to a thread I made 2 or 3 years ago, he remembers specifics on the OP, and specifics about something I could not edit b/c it was in a poll(as I stated in the thread).

 

Yet it's "cloudy" when he turned on Fedor.

 

I just find his consistent inconsistency entertaining :)

1/8/14 12:13 AM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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Btw orcus, it's threads like this that make you HATE me. 

But one thing you will never grasp, is you have only yourself to blame.

All my material comes from you.

 

Me vs orcus is like UFC 37.  I make orcus be wrong by pointing out where orcus was right.

orcus vs orcus-When Worlds Collide

1/8/14 12:14 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"Because everyone has posting habits like you orcus?"

No, of course they don't. For example, while I don't let stupid, insupportable statements pass, many of you choose instead to focus your own posting on getting repeatedly, childishly worked up over my corrections and reasoned arguments. While I "can't resist" correcting stupid posts about Fedor, you all "can't resist" crying about him being "discredited", even if no "discrediting" has taken place whatsoever. I'm sure to anyone outside the MMA forum universe, we'd both seem ridiculous, but you all would seem downright pathetic with your endless, emotional and irrational responses to someone correcting what are usually demonstrably false or at least patently stupid statements.
1/8/14 12:16 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"He had no idea "when" his mind changed on Fedor. It's certain and confirmed that he has, but as far as the timeline...."he can't remember"."

Yes, I don't mark my posts down on a calendar like you do.

"he remembers that a quote of his years ago was "sarcasm"."

lol...I know my own posting style, and I know that was a ridiculous comment even if it had been made back when I thought Fedor was GOAT (which it wasn't).

"Then in regards to a thread I made 2 or 3 years ago, he remembers specifics on the OP, and specifics about something I could not edit b/c it was in a poll(as I stated in the thread)."

Again, I don't remember the date. I do remember that the first time I became aware of your existence was when you got butthurt over something you should have been thankful for, prompting you to stalk me for years, collect every post I've ever made here, and even demand to see a photo of me for god knows what creepy reason.

So, yeah, probably no one else "noticed" what you "noticed", by which I mean, no one else drew drunken conclusions from their own misunderstandings of what should be obvious.
1/8/14 12:22 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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What's funny is that Jack Slack, the universally respected writer whom D241 defends here, said in his article something that, if I or any other regular poster here said it in one of these threads, would without question draw weepy shrieks of "discrediting!" from D241 and the rest of his idiot brigade. "It is more an indictment of how sloppy the heavyweight division was that he was able to defeat three more top-10 opponents (in Sylvia, Arlovski and Brett Rogers)" -- OMG! Discrediting the division to take away from those incredible wins!
1/8/14 12:26 AM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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Surely you of all people aren't trying to discredit the heavyweight division.....tisk tisk....

 

 
orcus - "That said, he doesn't finish, which clearly makes him less dominant in his weight class."By your logic, maybe it shows the DEPTH of the HW division because they are all so tough and hard to finish. "Aurelio was probably borderline top 10.. but he just beat #1 GOMI. this shows DEPTH in the division."lol -- why do I have the feeling that if a "borderline top 10" fighter choked out Fedor that it would show that Fedor was laughably over-rated rather than that the division has "DEPTH"? Gomi beats all the LWs = shows his dominance. Fedor beats all the HWs = shows how thin the division is. Gomi gets beat = shows depth of his division, making his dominance even more impressive. Fedor gets beat = shows he isn't that great.Todd and MrColdCock are right on -- guys like Nog, Arlovski, Crocop, possibly Alexander, Barnett, Hunt soon could all beat each other on any given night. But no one, apparently, can touch Fedor.
 
 
1/8/14 12:39 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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What's funny is seeing you post and repost things you think are "gotchas" but it really just shows how poor your reading comprehension is. I was ridiculing EY's absurdly contradictory positions on what a streak of wins meant for Gomi vs Fedor, and what losses meant for Gomi versus what they would mean for Fedor.

Both guys' streaks meant they were at the top of their divisions in their organizations at the time. Losses for either would be cause for re-evaluating one's estimation of their abilities.

The "correct" stance is certainly not that a loss for either guy should indicate that their division must have great depth and they're even better than we thought.
1/8/14 12:40 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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Edited: 01/08/14 12:45 AM
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Dumdum241, was Jack Slack discrediting Fedor when he said ""It is more an indictment of how sloppy the heavyweight division was that he was able to defeat three more top-10 opponents (in Sylvia, Arlovski and Brett Rogers)"?

Keep in mind that Sylvia and Arlovski are literally the third and fourth best fighters Fedor ever beat in his career, and Jack Slack just characterized his wins over them, or at least their top 10 rankings, as "more an indictment of how sloppy the heavyweight division was".

How do you feel about that? Does it make you angry? Or is it okay because he rarely posts here?
1/8/14 1:37 AM
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VTFU
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It's funny that Jack's article encouraged us to appreciate the legacy and strategic influence of both of these great fighters rather than bicker about who's better.

Yet, everyone bickers about who's better.

Such is human nature I suppose.

Kick ass article, Jack.

We are lucky to have your threads here. Phone Post 3.0
1/8/14 2:58 AM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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I feel your obsession is as strong as it ever was orcus.

It's 2014, and just look at how passionately you try to discredit Fedor.

 

Marvelous, just marvelous.

1/8/14 4:24 AM
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Proteus The Invincible
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SevenLeggedSpider - 

I feel your obsession is as strong as it ever was orcus.

It's 2014, and just look at how passionately you try to discredit Fedor.

 

Marvelous, just marvelous.


I don't think there's any passion behind orcus's arguments; I strongly doubt that he even believes much of what he says. The evidence tells me that he's a poster paid to push Zuffa's agenda, which would mean that his obsession over Fedor is actually just business.
1/8/14 8:40 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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SevenLeggedSpider - 

I feel your obsession is as strong as it ever was orcus.

It's 2014, and just look at how passionately you try to discredit Fedor.

 

Marvelous, just marvelous.


Passion? No, it takes little or no "passion" to correct dumb people.

You are the one who is emotional, since you come into these threads and immediately go far off-topic by addressing nothing of the topic, but only repeating your broken record about me and your wild fantasies about why I post what I post. When, of course, I will gladly tell anyone why I post what I post, no armchair psychology necessary.

For example, in this thread, someone said "Fedor easily...he beat giants, olympians, and champions", which prompted me to point out how silly that was as a reason to have Fedor "easily" as the GOAT -- for reasons already explained.
1/8/14 8:41 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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Dumdum241, was Jack Slack discrediting Fedor when he said ""It is more an indictment of how sloppy the heavyweight division was that he was able to defeat three more top-10 opponents (in Sylvia, Arlovski and Brett Rogers)"?

Keep in mind that Sylvia and Arlovski are literally the third and fourth best fighters Fedor ever beat in his career, and Jack Slack just characterized the significance of his wins over them as "more an indictment of how sloppy the heavyweight division was".

How do you feel about that? Does it make you angry? Or is it okay because he rarely posts here and thus you don't have to be concerned about whether his comment, true or not, was indicative of an "obsession" no his part?
1/8/14 10:41 AM
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FETT_GayFerPayNINJA
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I find it interesting that D wont address what Orcus keeps asking about JS comment about the HW division... Phone Post 3.0
1/8/14 11:17 AM
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX
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I'd like to know more of what JS meant by that comment 1st!
1/8/14 11:34 AM
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FETT_GayFerPayNINJA
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX - I'd like to know more of what JS meant by that comment 1st!
Pretty obvious. Phone Post 3.0
1/8/14 12:46 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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He was very clear what he meant. He was saying that those wins were less due to Fedor's GOAT-ness -- as, in Jack's words, he was at that time "showing none of the skills that made him great" -- and more due to just how bad the heavyweight division was.

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