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UnderGround Forums >> Fedor versus Anderson: Who is the GOAT?


1/5/14 8:03 PM
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VinegarStrokes
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Burt Hurt - http://uploadir.com/u/nzbhuxdy

1/5/14 8:05 PM
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CaptainAhab
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In my heart, Fedor will always be GOAT.

But Anderson did it for a bigger time and on a longer stage.

So if I had to present a logical argument, I'd say Anderson.
1/5/14 8:10 PM
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CaptainAhab
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*larger stage*
1/5/14 8:24 PM
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Fade7
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sa80teur - "What the ancients called a clever fighter was not one who wins, but excels in winning with ease. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War.

Anderson. Phone Post 3.0

VU!

Best example would be vs Vitor and finishing him with one strike, I think the only strike landed by Silva, that is the definition of "with ease." Vitor is a dangerous mofo and nobody except Silva could one hit KO him like that. Also the Bonnar and Griffin fights are good examples.
1/5/14 8:40 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"BTW, I know that you know that Fedor dealt with some pretty bad hand injuries during his career multiple times that put him on the shelf. The "broken finger" and "broken toe" reference you make while excluding his reoccurring broken hand is using deliberately misleading and dishonest tactics to attempt to win an argument."

I don't know that. When were his pretty bad hand injuries beyond broken fingers?
1/5/14 9:09 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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gokudamus stole my name iv - "BTW, I know that you know that Fedor dealt with some pretty bad hand injuries during his career multiple times that put him on the shelf. The "broken finger" and "broken toe" reference you make while excluding his reoccurring broken hand is using deliberately misleading and dishonest tactics to attempt to win an argument."

I don't know that. When were his pretty bad hand injuries beyond broken fingers?
Fedor had chronic problems with his hand. He had surgery on his hand twice. Once after he broke it beating Big Daddy in 2003 and then again after beating Zulu. He had to get a plate inserted in his hand right after, before the Coleman rematch. He hurt the hand the second time during the TK rematch and made it worse until he needed surgery.

Then he broke his hand again after he KOed Brett Rogers and was out for 6 months.

This is from an old Sherdog article right before he fought Cro Cop: "The question mark hanging over Emelianenko is the condition of his right hand. There have been a lot of rumors circulating about this point — everything from Fedor using a specially designed right glove to protect his hand all the way to talk that can no longer punch with his right. I even heard one of the media people today say that Fedor has to go in for corrective surgery after this fight." Phone Post 3.0
1/5/14 9:59 PM
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ThinkMMA
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Funaki Masakatsu #1 -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "BTW, I know that you know that Fedor dealt with some pretty bad hand injuries during his career multiple times that put him on the shelf. The "broken finger" and "broken toe" reference you make while excluding his reoccurring broken hand is using deliberately misleading and dishonest tactics to attempt to win an argument."

I don't know that. When were his pretty bad hand injuries beyond broken fingers?
Fedor had chronic problems with his hand. He had surgery on his hand twice. Once after he broke it beating Big Daddy in 2003 and then again after beating Zulu. He had to get a plate inserted in his hand right after, before the Coleman rematch. He hurt the hand the second time during the TK rematch and made it worse until he needed surgery.

Then he broke his hand again after he KOed Brett Rogers and was out for 6 months.

This is from an old Sherdog article right before he fought Cro Cop: "The question mark hanging over Emelianenko is the condition of his right hand. There have been a lot of rumors circulating about this point — everything from Fedor using a specially designed right glove to protect his hand all the way to talk that can no longer punch with his right. I even heard one of the media people today say that Fedor has to go in for corrective surgery after this fight." Phone Post 3.0
Well now you know. Phone Post 3.0
1/5/14 11:38 PM
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MrColdCock
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ThinkMMA -
Funaki Masakatsu #1 -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "BTW, I know that you know that Fedor dealt with some pretty bad hand injuries during his career multiple times that put him on the shelf. The "broken finger" and "broken toe" reference you make while excluding his reoccurring broken hand is using deliberately misleading and dishonest tactics to attempt to win an argument."

I don't know that. When were his pretty bad hand injuries beyond broken fingers?
Fedor had chronic problems with his hand. He had surgery on his hand twice. Once after he broke it beating Big Daddy in 2003 and then again after beating Zulu. He had to get a plate inserted in his hand right after, before the Coleman rematch. He hurt the hand the second time during the TK rematch and made it worse until he needed surgery.

Then he broke his hand again after he KOed Brett Rogers and was out for 6 months.

This is from an old Sherdog article right before he fought Cro Cop: "The question mark hanging over Emelianenko is the condition of his right hand. There have been a lot of rumors circulating about this point — everything from Fedor using a specially designed right glove to protect his hand all the way to talk that can no longer punch with his right. I even heard one of the media people today say that Fedor has to go in for corrective surgery after this fight." Phone Post 3.0
Well now you know. Phone Post 3.0
LOL. Indeed Phone Post
1/6/14 12:30 AM
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eljamaiquino
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MySonTommyGunn - Fedor for me. I always think if you were to build a fighter to beat them what would you build? For Anderson you would build a good wrestler with decent BJJ but for Fedor what could you build? In his prime was the hardest man in the sport. So Fedor is the GOAT for me, just my opinion. Phone Post 3.0
The exact same thing actually. Fedor grabbed the ropes against every wrestler he faced. A strong wrestler with sub defence would have beat him in modern mma. Just watch his Arona fight in rings... Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 12:33 AM
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eljamaiquino
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VinegarStrokes -
Captfireeyes - 
sa80teur - "What the ancients called a clever fighter was not one who wins, but excels in winning with ease. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War.

Anderson. Phone Post 3.0
If winning with ease is how you judge the GOAT, wouldn't you have to pick Fedor, as he arguably never lost a round during his 10 undefeated streak? Phone Post 3.0

If winning with ease is the way you judge it. The the ONLY answer is GSP. No unavenged losses. A much harder list of competition overall than either Anderson or Fedor. 

If you look at that quote, it's talking about Anderson for sure. Gsp and Fedor shut down opponents, but Silva made it look so easy that he actually discredited his own competition. Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 12:46 AM
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VinegarStrokes
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^ GSP won with ease and in all of his wins was only at risk of losing once (Hendricks pushed him and arguably won). He went years without anyone doing anything to him. Between sera 1 and Hendricks he lost what 2 rounds? And one of those was lost while blind in one eye.

I tend to think the argument is silly. The three who get discussed are three of the best ever and legends. But in a sport that's so young we likely will have other fighters who are more well rounded as the sport grows. We should just agree these guys are amongst the best ever. Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 12:51 AM
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eljamaiquino
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VinegarStrokes - ^ GSP won with ease and in all of his wins was only at risk of losing once (Hendricks pushed him and arguably won). He went years without anyone doing anything to him. Between sera 1 and Hendricks he lost what 2 rounds? And one of those was lost while blind in one eye.

I tend to think the argument is silly. The three who get discussed are three of the best ever and legends. But in a sport that's so young we likely will have other fighters who are more well rounded as the sport grows. We should just agree these guys are amongst the best ever. Phone Post 3.0
No way. GSP gets credit for his opponents being tough when they last a full 5 rounds. Anderson gets " he's not trying". Name GSP's best ufc performance and compare it to Silva-Griffin or Silva-Belfort. Im not making an argument for the GOAT, just pointing that that quote is written for Silva, not any of the others.... Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 4:14 AM
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX
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ThinkMMA - 
Funaki Masakatsu #1 -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "BTW, I know that you know that Fedor dealt with some pretty bad hand injuries during his career multiple times that put him on the shelf. The "broken finger" and "broken toe" reference you make while excluding his reoccurring broken hand is using deliberately misleading and dishonest tactics to attempt to win an argument."

I don't know that. When were his pretty bad hand injuries beyond broken fingers?
Fedor had chronic problems with his hand. He had surgery on his hand twice. Once after he broke it beating Big Daddy in 2003 and then again after beating Zulu. He had to get a plate inserted in his hand right after, before the Coleman rematch. He hurt the hand the second time during the TK rematch and made it worse until he needed surgery.

Then he broke his hand again after he KOed Brett Rogers and was out for 6 months.

This is from an old Sherdog article right before he fought Cro Cop: "The question mark hanging over Emelianenko is the condition of his right hand. There have been a lot of rumors circulating about this point — everything from Fedor using a specially designed right glove to protect his hand all the way to talk that can no longer punch with his right. I even heard one of the media people today say that Fedor has to go in for corrective surgery after this fight." Phone Post 3.0
Well now you know. Phone Post 3.0

he knew, it just doesnt fit his Fedor bashing agenda so he "Dont know"
1/6/14 4:53 AM
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Mudderfaeg
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Baby Jay Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 5:15 AM
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IsmokeCrack
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gokudamus stole my name iv - "He fought Giants, Olympic Medalists, and Numerous Champions."

The first two of those have little or nothing to do with success in MMA. The last is only relevant if the champions were at or near their peak, and even then may be irrelevant if they didn't beat great fighters to become champion in the first place.
You mean like 6 or 7 whatever it is UFC champs, like the #2 goat HW nog, like Grand Prix champ cc? Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 5:46 AM
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Bert Macklin
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Fedor, for me.

Anyone saying Anderson won't get an argument from me. Phone Post 3.0
1/6/14 8:39 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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IsmokeCrack - 
gokudamus stole my name iv - "He fought Giants, Olympic Medalists, and Numerous Champions."

The first two of those have little or nothing to do with success in MMA. The last is only relevant if the champions were at or near their peak, and even then may be irrelevant if they didn't beat great fighters to become champion in the first place.
You mean like 6 or 7 whatever it is UFC champs, like the #2 goat HW nog, like Grand Prix champ cc? Phone Post 3.0

I mean like Mark Coleman who was 40 years old, had been inactive for a year and a half, and 3 years past his win over Igor, which was his only win of any significance in the previous SEVEN YEARS. I mean like Kevin Randleman who was 4 years past wearing a belt, coming off back to back stoppage losses, who had just described himself as "the worst fighter in my division", and whose only win of any significance whatsoever in the final decade of his career (which includes the time he fought Fedor) was a fluke KO of Crocop. I mean like Tim Sylvia who had lost his title by being utterly dominated by Couture, then eked out an ugly decision over Brandon Vera, then got submitted by a guy routinely referred to as "zombie Nog". And so on.

I have the strangest feeling that you and your fellow retards don't give, say, Roy Nelson any credit for beating "champion" Crocop -- no, he was past his prime then! Big deal! But you'll praise Fedor for his wins over "6 or 7 or whatever UFC champs" until the end of time. Of course in his case he gets credit for beating champions not only if they had lost their belts centuries earlier, but also if they didn't win their first belt until years later. Classic.

No, I don't mean like Nog, because he was a legit champion when Fedor fought him. Duh.
1/6/14 8:40 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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THERE WAS A GLITCH IN THE MATRiX - 
ThinkMMA - 
Funaki Masakatsu #1 -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "BTW, I know that you know that Fedor dealt with some pretty bad hand injuries during his career multiple times that put him on the shelf. The "broken finger" and "broken toe" reference you make while excluding his reoccurring broken hand is using deliberately misleading and dishonest tactics to attempt to win an argument."

I don't know that. When were his pretty bad hand injuries beyond broken fingers?
Fedor had chronic problems with his hand. He had surgery on his hand twice. Once after he broke it beating Big Daddy in 2003 and then again after beating Zulu. He had to get a plate inserted in his hand right after, before the Coleman rematch. He hurt the hand the second time during the TK rematch and made it worse until he needed surgery.

Then he broke his hand again after he KOed Brett Rogers and was out for 6 months.

This is from an old Sherdog article right before he fought Cro Cop: "The question mark hanging over Emelianenko is the condition of his right hand. There have been a lot of rumors circulating about this point — everything from Fedor using a specially designed right glove to protect his hand all the way to talk that can no longer punch with his right. I even heard one of the media people today say that Fedor has to go in for corrective surgery after this fight." Phone Post 3.0
Well now you know. Phone Post 3.0

he knew, it just doesnt fit his Fedor bashing agenda so he "Dont know"

I forgot, thanks for reminding me. I still don't put a broken hand into the same class as knee, shoulder, back, and neck surgeries.

Also odd that if his hand were plaguing him so much, that he would switch to a style in which he did little other than throw huge bombs with it, i.e., a strategy that seemed tailor-made to aggravate or re-injure it.
1/6/14 2:15 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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orcus - I would say that Fedor actually doesn't have a weakness. You could say pretty truthfully that he's in the top 2 or 3 of his weight class in every area of fighting (striking, wrestling, submissions, conditioning, strategy). Which isn't to say he can't be beat; of course he can. But that's not the same as saying he has any real "holes" in his game.
 
 
 
orcus -Fighters who get hit more often by big punchers are more likely to get KTFO than fighters who protect their chins. ...that's not a hypothetical. " Does he get hit more often by big punchers? We've only seen him hurt once (by Fujita) and he's been in the ring with Crocop, Schilt and Goodridge among others. So either he doesn't get hit more often by big punchers than anybody else (in which case it's not a "weakness" or "chink" particular to Fedor), or he does, in which case obviously he has a great chin and again it is not a weakness.
 
 
 
orcus -I think Fedor's faster than Hunt. He could keep moving and fling out those "long hooks" until he sees the opening for the takedown. Crocop and Hunt clinched about 900 times, and I doubt anyone can stop Fedor's takedowns from the clinch.

   

orcus - I think he'll lose to Nog, but that won't change the fact that Tim is one of the best heavies in the world.
 
orcus-  Hence the half-kidding. But the fact remains that Fedor destroyed Goodridge in seconds and Gary just won a spot in the K-1 GP by beating two solid K-1 contenders. Fedor hits harder and has a better chin, and I think his middle kicks are also surprisingly good, having hurt both Fujita and Crocop with them (better than Gary's, though Gary has good low kicks these days). 
 
 
orcus-  "Fedor is rarely stronger than anyone he fights." Regardless of how his bench press compares to his opponents', he has appeared stronger than everyone he's ever fought in my eyes. Whether it's technique or muscle strength, what difference does it make if in practice, you do whatever you want with your opponents, physically? But I still can't imagine why you think Rampage is stronger just because he *looks* more muscular at 15-20lb lower bodyweight. "Actually, the same goes for Lindland. You guys can't think he is strong, can you? " Hell yes. You think an Olympic wrestler is not strong? And didn't someone say he can bench (I hate having to bring up bench press at all) 400lbs?
 
 
1/6/14 2:20 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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BJ > DORKUS - Brock would get subbed today. Two years from now (at most) he'd have a good chance.

I have the feeling Brock can take a good punch based on the size of his head. We already know he hits hard, we already know he has excellent takedowns.
  



orcus - Fedor. Not to say either guy can't win, but I don't really see this as a tough fight to call.

But *objectively*, looking strictly at the scoring criteria (which are intended to make it as quantitative as possible and have as little of "who looked the worst" as can realistically be achieved), you could make a case for it being a very close fight (as I think I did). Which is not to say that I don't think Fedor established beyond all doubt that he is the best fighter in the sport, past or present.

  

 

 
orcus - In terms of my estimation of their skills/strengths, in no order:

Fedor
Nog
Cain

and then I start drawing a blank. Overeem ought to be on there but it remains to be seen if he will be a monster in reality as he is on paper, once he starts fighting good opponents. Barnett maybe? But he's looked kind of crappy often too. Tough to say.
 
 
 
orcus - There is simply no fighter at any weight who is as good at wrestling, striking and submissions as Fedor is, with his speed, strength, stamina, and strategy. Case closed.
 
 
And as always, the Nail in the Coffin Prediction made YEARS ago,
 
 
orcus - "That said, he doesn't finish, which clearly makes him less dominant in his weight class."By your logic, maybe it shows the DEPTH of the HW division because they are all so tough and hard to finish. "Aurelio was probably borderline top 10.. but he just beat #1 GOMI. this shows DEPTH in the division."lol -- why do I have the feeling that if a "borderline top 10" fighter choked out Fedor that it would show that Fedor was laughably over-rated rather than that the division has "DEPTH"? Gomi beats all the LWs = shows his dominance. Fedor beats all the HWs = shows how thin the division is. Gomi gets beat = shows depth of his division, making his dominance even more impressive. Fedor gets beat = shows he isn't that great.Todd and MrColdCock are right on -- guys like Nog, Arlovski, Crocop, possibly Alexander, Barnett, Hunt soon could all beat each other on any given night. But no one, apparently, can touch Fedor.
 
 
1/6/14 2:23 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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gokudamus stole my name iv=orcus

 

 

For newer UGers reading this thread. To summarize, orcus used to claim Fedor as the clear cut Goat many years ago, AS Fedor was doing it.

Orcus predicted many years ago, that as soon as Fedor loses and gets choked out(pretty good prediction as it was 100% accurate how he lost), Fedor would all of a sudden be considered overrated and was in a shallow division.

 

Then years later, it happened, except the funniest part, is orcus has BY FAR been the most guilty party of his own prediction years ago.  It's insanely funny.  I had to document this shit so that people could see what many of us see.

1/6/14 5:16 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"For newer UGers reading this thread. To summarize, orcus used to claim Fedor as the clear cut Goat many years ago, AS Fedor was doing it."

To summarize for newer UGers, at one time, Fedor was the most impressive fighter we'd seen to that point, but he has since been supplanted.

"orcus- Hence the half-kidding. But the fact remains that Fedor destroyed Goodridge in seconds and Gary just won a spot in the K-1 GP by beating two solid K-1 contenders. Fedor hits harder and has a better chin, and I think his middle kicks are also surprisingly good, having hurt both Fujita and Crocop with them (better than Gary's, though Gary has good low kicks these days). "

Nothing changed here, I'm sure Fedor would have done just fine against the chinless wonders in K-1.
1/6/14 5:24 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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What Dumdum241 also finds it impossible to understand is that I wasn't knocking the idea of a fighter being considered over-rated when he loses. I was knocking the idea that a fighter losing actually INFLATES his rating and that of his division. EvilYoshida attempted to argue that a borderline top 10 beating Gomi merely showed how awesome the division was, and that Gomi's dominance over this now-proven awesome division thus made him #1 p4p. His "logic" was that Gomi was the best because he lost which proved that his division was the best. I merely ridiculed that absurd argument.
1/6/14 5:54 PM
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SevenLeggedSpider
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"but he has since been supplanted."

 

When did he get supplanted? Obviously you've changed, I'm wondering specifically when it was?

 

It was the Lutter fight. Admit it. It was the Lutter fight. That's it, that's got to be it. I'm right aren't I.

1/6/14 6:34 PM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"When did he get supplanted? Obviously you've changed, I'm wondering specifically when it was?"

Specifically? I don't know, I don't log all my posts and thoughts. But since you've wasted months of your life reading every post I've ever made here, you should be able to tell me.


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