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UnderGround Forums >> The COLLAPSE of the UFC's PPV Model

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5/12/14 2:23 AM
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If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much
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Knockoutimus - Brock Lesnar inflated the numbers a few years back by bringing over a huge audience from WWE.

It was a temporary boost that painted an inaccurate picture of where the ufc was in terms of actual popularity.

The sport is still growing and so is its legit fan base. Phone Post 3.0
Bingo
Sport is still growing globally, sure PPV numbers aren't as high as they once were but revenue is at an all time high and will continue to rise. Phone Post 3.0
5/12/14 2:28 AM
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TommyRSU
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Interesting data. However, it's not really telling us anything without knowing more about the big picture. You can see trends for sure, but if there are explanations for the specific trends during the time frames it would make more sense. Guys are making good points that your data doesn't explain. Free cards, different fighters, spike to fox, changing the model, etc....These are important factors.

I worked at Microsoft for a long time and I love data and what it can tell you. That being said, it can be incredibly shortsighted. It can block you from the bigger picture and get in your way from what you are looking for and what you need to know. It's hard to see the forest through the tree type of shit. Phone Post 3.0
5/12/14 2:39 AM
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If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much
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Shocker, people agree haulport is full of shit. Phone Post 3.0
5/12/14 4:53 AM
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sparkuri
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If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much - Shocker, people agree haulport is full of shit. Phone Post 3.0
There are probably 10x more that think you are.
No one likes a shill. Phone Post 3.0
5/12/14 10:26 AM
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Absolute29
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nobones - Has far from collapsed. Is it as successful as it has been in years past? No. But they also have more tv contracts and major ones than ever before. Also the July 5th card looks to do insane business and Gus vs Jones II should do massive numbers. I would say that a portion of their PPV business has been replaced by other forms of income. But PPV is still their bread and butter. If they can ever negotiate bigger tv contract with FOX and move away from the PPV model even more that is only a good thing. Phone Post 3.0

He's absolutely right....other forms of income have offset the loss of PPV income...I mean...that's business 101...diversify...

Also..UFC is carrying FOX Sports 1...and will be rewarded with a bigger contract when it comes time to negotiate a new deal...

PPV numbers aren't as big a deal as they were back in 2008-2010.
5/12/14 2:19 PM
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Haulport
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If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much - 
Haulport -
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much - 
Haulport - BTW:

When you take the avg thru april of the last 8 years (463,521) and get the difference between 2014 thru April and assume they make $30 per PPV then the UFC is down $4.755mm PER event! That is approximately a $20mm loss so far this year.

Staggering................
You got a lot of big events later this year which will bring the numbers up. UFC 175, Ronda vs Gina, Gus vs Jones, Silva return on NYE, etc...
Your idea of Zuffa failing is laughable, revenues are going up not down regardless of the PPV numbers due to increase in broadcasting revenue and once the current Fox deal is done it will go up even more. UFC isn't going anywhere! Phone Post 3.0

You don't have a single fucking clue what you are talking about. I would get a better conversation out of my sister's weird cat...
Please explain

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about, let's be real. You can't even come up with a valid response to what I stated. Phone Post 3.0

My valid response was RIGHT ABOVE YOUR FUCKING POST. You decided to ignore it because it invalidates your agenda driven trolls..........
5/12/14 2:40 PM
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Absolute29 -
nobones - Has far from collapsed. Is it as successful as it has been in years past? No. But they also have more tv contracts and major ones than ever before. Also the July 5th card looks to do insane business and Gus vs Jones II should do massive numbers. I would say that a portion of their PPV business has been replaced by other forms of income. But PPV is still their bread and butter. If they can ever negotiate bigger tv contract with FOX and move away from the PPV model even more that is only a good thing. Phone Post 3.0

He's absolutely right....other forms of income have offset the loss of PPV income...I mean...that's business 101...diversify...

Also..UFC is carrying FOX Sports 1...and will be rewarded with a bigger contract when it comes time to negotiate a new deal...

PPV numbers aren't as big a deal as they were back in 2008-2010.
This. What's even more comical about haulport's attempts to try and make this seem like it is an issue and that zuffa is incompetent, is that Lorenzo said in multiple interviews that this was their actual plan over the past few years back in 2011 iirc. Phone Post 3.0
5/12/14 2:43 PM
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Richie Muldanno - with this attitude of keeping their head in the sand they're going to be up a shit creek here before too long.

Lol @ ppv numbers not mattering Phone Post 3.0
Who said they don't matter? Oh, that's right, no one. They don't matter AS MUCH when a business specifically states they are moving away from placing so much value on their PPV and expanding their cable/network and global presence.

OP doesn't have a grasp on the business model that Zuffa stated they are taking over the next few years, and is known hater of zuffa, so his ignorance is making him ignore that and pretend that thus is some unexpected "collapse"...lmfao Phone Post 3.0
5/12/14 3:04 PM
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Haulport
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suspiciouslyofficial - 
klabo -
Haulport - With the revelation by Dave Meltzer that UFC 168 did 1.1 million buys (if this is accurate) it signals another poor year for the UFC in total PPV buys where they were still not able to even reach their 2008 total. One slight positive is that they were able to stop the free-fall that started after they peaked in 2010, where they saw two consecutive years of decline (28% and 10% y/y losses). Early year projections by Zuffa employees that they would reach and/or beat the 2011 numbers have fallen short which must have resulted in some disappointment for the company.

Total Avg Per Event # of Events
2006 5,270,000 527,000 10
2007 4,948,000 412,333 12
2008 6,325,000 527,083 12
2009 8,020,000 616,923 13
2010 8,980,000 561,250 16
2011 6,485,000 405,313 16
2012 5,835,000 448,846 13
2013 6,150,000 473,077 13
Get a refund from the UG school of business... You don't know shit and neither does anyone else not names Dana, Fertitta or Joe. Phone Post 3.0
This Phone Post 3.0

Another shill. You can check out their ever diminishing UFC on Fox numbers (down by more than 50% since UFC on FOX 1 5.7mm to 2.5mm) if you don't believe the public PPV numbers...
5/12/14 3:06 PM
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Haulport
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TommyRSU - Interesting data. However, it's not really telling us anything without knowing more about the big picture. You can see trends for sure, but if there are explanations for the specific trends during the time frames it would make more sense. Guys are making good points that your data doesn't explain. Free cards, different fighters, spike to fox, changing the model, etc....These are important factors.

I worked at Microsoft for a long time and I love data and what it can tell you. That being said, it can be incredibly shortsighted. It can block you from the bigger picture and get in your way from what you are looking for and what you need to know. It's hard to see the forest through the tree type of shit. Phone Post 3.0

I appreciate your level headed approach friend. Honestly though, what has happened is so extremely (in the US) that anything else just becomes trying to catch up to the lost revenues. The fact that their UFC on FOX viewing numbers have collapsed also indicate some dire problems....
5/12/14 3:36 PM
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Haulport
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Knockoutimus - Brock Lesnar inflated the numbers a few years back by bringing over a huge audience from WWE.

It was a temporary boost that painted an inaccurate picture of where the ufc was in terms of actual popularity.

The sport is still growing and so is its legit fan base. Phone Post 3.0

That makes no sense. It was not just Brock (GSP) and your whole premise is that "We had a big star that made us money and now we don't have any big stars." Stars are what drive ALL of sports. Claiming you lost your best draw but that doesn't matter because it was just that guy is absurd, not to mention the decline happened to cards that DIDN'T have Brock on them too...
5/12/14 3:37 PM
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Haulport
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Absolute29 -
nobones - Has far from collapsed. Is it as successful as it has been in years past? No. But they also have more tv contracts and major ones than ever before. Also the July 5th card looks to do insane business and Gus vs Jones II should do massive numbers. I would say that a portion of their PPV business has been replaced by other forms of income. But PPV is still their bread and butter. If they can ever negotiate bigger tv contract with FOX and move away from the PPV model even more that is only a good thing. Phone Post 3.0

He's absolutely right....other forms of income have offset the loss of PPV income...I mean...that's business 101...diversify...

Also..UFC is carrying FOX Sports 1...and will be rewarded with a bigger contract when it comes time to negotiate a new deal...

PPV numbers aren't as big a deal as they were back in 2008-2010.
This. What's even more comical about haulport's attempts to try and make this seem like it is an issue and that zuffa is incompetent, is that Lorenzo said in multiple interviews that this was their actual plan over the past few years back in 2011 iirc. Phone Post 3.0

Lorenzo is full of shit. His plan was to have his free tv ratings PLUMMET while he also lost PPV buys?

L
O
L
5/12/14 3:39 PM
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Haulport
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Richie Muldanno - with this attitude of keeping their head in the sand they're going to be up a shit creek here before too long.

Lol @ ppv numbers not mattering Phone Post 3.0
Who said they don't matter? Oh, that's right, no one. They don't matter AS MUCH when a business specifically states they are moving away from placing so much value on their PPV and expanding their cable/network and global presence.

OP doesn't have a grasp on the business model that Zuffa stated they are taking over the next few years, and is known hater of zuffa, so his ignorance is making him ignore that and pretend that thus is some unexpected "collapse"...lmfao Phone Post 3.0

You are another Dutch-like shill along with nobones. You may all be the same person probably. And AGAIN, the plan was certainly not to have their free ratings fall apart as they diversified. To make believe that the ratings and PPV buys in the US falling the fuck apart doesn;t matter because they got a tv deal in Brazil is LAUGHABLE and indicates that you are not a serious person........
5/12/14 3:39 PM
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Haulport
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sparkuri - 
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much - Shocker, people agree haulport is full of shit. Phone Post 3.0
There are probably 10x more that think you are.
No one likes a shill. Phone Post 3.0

Thank you
5/12/14 4:17 PM
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dabigchet
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" The cards in MMA sell on the card not the main event for the most part. "

lol
5/12/14 4:47 PM
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Haulport -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Richie Muldanno - with this attitude of keeping their head in the sand they're going to be up a shit creek here before too long.

Lol @ ppv numbers not mattering Phone Post 3.0
Who said they don't matter? Oh, that's right, no one. They don't matter AS MUCH when a business specifically states they are moving away from placing so much value on their PPV and expanding their cable/network and global presence.

OP doesn't have a grasp on the business model that Zuffa stated they are taking over the next few years, and is known hater of zuffa, so his ignorance is making him ignore that and pretend that thus is some unexpected "collapse"...lmfao Phone Post 3.0

You are another Dutch-like shill along with nobones. You may all be the same person probably. And AGAIN, the plan was certainly not to have their free ratings fall apart as they diversified. To make believe that the ratings and PPV buys in the US falling the fuck apart doesn;t matter because they got a tv deal in Brazil is LAUGHABLE and indicates that you are not a serious person........
The ultimate strawman. More than one poster disagrees with you, call them all shills and trolls.

No no, you're right. Lorenzo is clearly an ignorant businessman who was full of shit when he said the ufc planned on slowly getting away from such a PPV heavy plan for success. That they would launch TUFs on multiple continents, and focus on global expansion.

I'm shocked someone of your business acumen would even waste their time with us plebs on a forum. If only Zuffa had you at the helm they would be worth triple what they are now.

Clearly they are bribing someone to claim their net worth keeps rising. No way they could average less PPV buys year over year, and be more profitable. Impossibru!!!! Phone Post 3.0
5/13/14 12:41 AM
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Haulport
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Haulport -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Richie Muldanno - with this attitude of keeping their head in the sand they're going to be up a shit creek here before too long.

Lol @ ppv numbers not mattering Phone Post 3.0
Who said they don't matter? Oh, that's right, no one. They don't matter AS MUCH when a business specifically states they are moving away from placing so much value on their PPV and expanding their cable/network and global presence.

OP doesn't have a grasp on the business model that Zuffa stated they are taking over the next few years, and is known hater of zuffa, so his ignorance is making him ignore that and pretend that thus is some unexpected "collapse"...lmfao Phone Post 3.0

You are another Dutch-like shill along with nobones. You may all be the same person probably. And AGAIN, the plan was certainly not to have their free ratings fall apart as they diversified. To make believe that the ratings and PPV buys in the US falling the fuck apart doesn;t matter because they got a tv deal in Brazil is LAUGHABLE and indicates that you are not a serious person........
The ultimate strawman. More than one poster disagrees with you, call them all shills and trolls.

No no, you're right. Lorenzo is clearly an ignorant businessman who was full of shit when he said the ufc planned on slowly getting away from such a PPV heavy plan for success. That they would launch TUFs on multiple continents, and focus on global expansion.

I'm shocked someone of your business acumen would even waste their time with us plebs on a forum. If only Zuffa had you at the helm they would be worth triple what they are now.

Clearly they are bribing someone to claim their net worth keeps rising. No way they could average less PPV buys year over year, and be more profitable. Impossibru!!!! Phone Post 3.0

Lol, you apparently wouldn't know a strawman if one was blowing you!

Yes, it was all Lorenzo's diabolical plan to be forced to replace (not increase) his profits with very expensive global expansion instead of using the growth of his US business to fund the expansion so he could kill competition. And then watch as his ratings on his alternative US revenue (free tv) fall the fuck apart guaranteeing a tough negotiating table for further contracts with free tv partners.

I'm sure it was also his plan to watch WWE's Total Divas get better ratings than TUF.

So where is exactly all the amazing business acumen on display?

Is it the COLLAPSE of their UFC on FOX ratings (56% down)?

Is it the COLLAPSE of their TUF ratings?

Is it the COLLAPSE of their PPV model?

Is it seeing all aspects of their business besides international expansion to Brazil, fall apart IN THE FACE of the greatest exposure the sport has ever seen in the US?

Reality: The UFC should be 5 times the size it was in 2010 due to the marketing exposure of the Fox deal and all the mainstream media surrounding Ronda. Instead they are struggling to put on shows in other countries just to keep themselves at or just above the 2010 levels...

That is the DEFINITION of dropping the ball......
5/13/14 3:02 AM
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If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Haulport -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Richie Muldanno - with this attitude of keeping their head in the sand they're going to be up a shit creek here before too long.

Lol @ ppv numbers not mattering Phone Post 3.0
Who said they don't matter? Oh, that's right, no one. They don't matter AS MUCH when a business specifically states they are moving away from placing so much value on their PPV and expanding their cable/network and global presence.

OP doesn't have a grasp on the business model that Zuffa stated they are taking over the next few years, and is known hater of zuffa, so his ignorance is making him ignore that and pretend that thus is some unexpected "collapse"...lmfao Phone Post 3.0

You are another Dutch-like shill along with nobones. You may all be the same person probably. And AGAIN, the plan was certainly not to have their free ratings fall apart as they diversified. To make believe that the ratings and PPV buys in the US falling the fuck apart doesn;t matter because they got a tv deal in Brazil is LAUGHABLE and indicates that you are not a serious person........
The ultimate strawman. More than one poster disagrees with you, call them all shills and trolls.

No no, you're right. Lorenzo is clearly an ignorant businessman who was full of shit when he said the ufc planned on slowly getting away from such a PPV heavy plan for success. That they would launch TUFs on multiple continents, and focus on global expansion.

I'm shocked someone of your business acumen would even waste their time with us plebs on a forum. If only Zuffa had you at the helm they would be worth triple what they are now.

Clearly they are bribing someone to claim their net worth keeps rising. No way they could average less PPV buys year over year, and be more profitable. Impossibru!!!! Phone Post 3.0

You didn't know Haulport has 10x the business IQ that Lorenzo has?

Haulport you are so full of shit it's comical. Your argument all along should of been UFCs profits are down because least we can't prove that is not true. Anyone that looks into all the new TV deals, and increased event number and see that revenue is at an all time high.

My suggestion to Haulport is go to college and take a few business classes. Then come back on here and have an intelligent conversation with us.
5/13/14 9:29 AM
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FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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The fact that you claim FOX ratings are "down" 56% by cribbing their first and only HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE FIGHT on FOX vs all their other cards clearly exposes your bias and ignorance. The only title fight on FOX that wasn't the tiny little relatively unknown guys they are trying to expose...

ZOMG they are down 56%!!!! They will file bankruptcy soon!!!

Who cares they are still dominating all the key demos for their audience. Who cares that the NUMBER or events on cable/network TV has tripled. Clearly they are ready to fold and Lorenzo is an idiot... Phone Post 3.0
5/13/14 9:56 AM
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Glovegate
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I guess the numbers can be looked at as good or bad (fwiw, I want them to be good and I want Bellator's and OneFC's numbers to be good along with all the rest of them because I love the sport, I have for a decade).

But I can't help find it disturbing that most of the people who asked me about upcoming fights 3-4 years ago don't care about it today.

I also think we can discuss this rationally. I mean surely it doesn't make us anti-UFC to point out what things seem to be going wrong for the UFC and what might possibly fix those things, right?

And surely it doesn't make us paid shills to keep a level head and factor in those things which are going well.
5/13/14 5:26 PM
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AndersonSilvasMoney
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Glovegate - I guess the numbers can be looked at as good or bad (fwiw, I want them to be good and I want Bellator's and OneFC's numbers to be good along with all the rest of them because I love the sport, I have for a decade).

But I can't help find it disturbing that most of the people who asked me about upcoming fights 3-4 years ago don't care about it today.

I also think we can discuss this rationally. I mean surely it doesn't make us anti-UFC to point out what things seem to be going wrong for the UFC and what might possibly fix those things, right?

And surely it doesn't make us paid shills to keep a level head and factor in those things which are going well.
The problem is this isn't a discussion and it rarely is on this forum.

For whatever reason you have a group of posters (like Haulport) who consistently post anti-Zuffa comments to the point where UFC could do a million buys next month and the PPV model would still be "collapsing." On the other hand, you have pro-Zuffa posters who can't admit that the UFC ever does anything wrong.

Discussions imply that one side is flexible or willing to adjust their position. That is so rarely the case on this board, and it certainly isn't the case in this thread. Here you're called a shill or an idiot if you post anything remotely debatable. Phone Post 3.0
5/20/14 1:15 AM
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Haulport
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AndersonSilvasMoney - 
Glovegate - I guess the numbers can be looked at as good or bad (fwiw, I want them to be good and I want Bellator's and OneFC's numbers to be good along with all the rest of them because I love the sport, I have for a decade).

But I can't help find it disturbing that most of the people who asked me about upcoming fights 3-4 years ago don't care about it today.

I also think we can discuss this rationally. I mean surely it doesn't make us anti-UFC to point out what things seem to be going wrong for the UFC and what might possibly fix those things, right?

And surely it doesn't make us paid shills to keep a level head and factor in those things which are going well.
The problem is this isn't a discussion and it rarely is on this forum.

For whatever reason you have a group of posters (like Haulport) who consistently post anti-Zuffa comments to the point where UFC could do a million buys next month and the PPV model would still be "collapsing." On the other hand, you have pro-Zuffa posters who can't admit that the UFC ever does anything wrong.

Discussions imply that one side is flexible or willing to adjust their position. That is so rarely the case on this board, and it certainly isn't the case in this thread. Here you're called a shill or an idiot if you post anything remotely debatable. Phone Post 3.0

I am always flexible and willing to change my mind. After the first season of TUF I loved Dana White and what was going on with the UFC...

The problem is that this forum is always filled with with Paid Posters for years now and they have converted a bunch of newbs into mindless zombies, not to mention all the fucking idiot trolls who repeat the same illogical shit over and over.

If you are a rational person and you look at the UFC numbers there is no other conclusion to come to besides this one: their ratings and PPV buys are in the shitter.

I believe this is happening because of their awful, stale, boring fatigued product and the non stop negativity spewing out of the mouth of Dana White.

These are all reasonable things I am discussing here. It is not my fault that cretins come on to my threads and immediately start calling me names and saying absurd things. So please do not put me in the same bucket of filth as them...
5/20/14 12:45 PM
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dabigchet
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your problem, haulport, isn't the recognition that "their ratings and PPV buys are in the shitter". they are. it is when you say retarded things like the PPV model is collapsing, or that main events don't sell PPV, or that it would be easy for you as a promoter for get double afflictions buy rates while spending a fraction of what they spent, or that UFC ratings are down 56% or any other number complete retarded things you have said in this thread. those things are your problem.

you make decent points, but then say a ton of stupid shit. others then, quite predictably, point out the abundance of stupid shit you have said, and you view them as shills and paid posters.

zuffa clearly is valuing international expansion as more important than high domestic PPVs and TV ratings. none of us knows whether or not that is paying off for them or whether it will in the long run. as a fan in the US, there is definitely less to get excited about and interest seems to be waning.
5/20/14 8:04 PM
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Haulport
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dabigchet - your problem, haulport, isn't the recognition that "their ratings and PPV buys are in the shitter". they are. it is when you say retarded things like the PPV model is collapsing, or that main events don't sell PPV, or that it would be easy for you as a promoter for get double afflictions buy rates while spending a fraction of what they spent, or that UFC ratings are down 56% or any other number complete retarded things you have said in this thread. those things are your problem.

you make decent points, but then say a ton of stupid shit. others then, quite predictably, point out the abundance of stupid shit you have said, and you view them as shills and paid posters.

zuffa clearly is valuing international expansion as more important than high domestic PPVs and TV ratings. none of us knows whether or not that is paying off for them or whether it will in the long run. as a fan in the US, there is definitely less to get excited about and interest seems to be waning.

Your last sentence says more than I could...
5/21/14 5:49 PM
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NYjojo
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dabigchet - your problem, haulport, isn't the recognition that "their ratings and PPV buys are in the shitter". they are. it is when you say retarded things like the PPV model is collapsing, or that main events don't sell PPV, or that it would be easy for you as a promoter for get double afflictions buy rates while spending a fraction of what they spent, or that UFC ratings are down 56% or any other number complete retarded things you have said in this thread. those things are your problem.

you make decent points, but then say a ton of stupid shit. others then, quite predictably, point out the abundance of stupid shit you have said, and you view them as shills and paid posters.

zuffa clearly is valuing international expansion as more important than high domestic PPVs and TV ratings. none of us knows whether or not that is paying off for them or whether it will in the long run. as a fan in the US, there is definitely less to get excited about and interest seems to be waning.

PPV buys dipped after the surge in 09-10, then the most significant number(average buys per event) increased year over year 11-13. The Fox deal was done in mid-2011. That's ppv growth in the face of many more free events per year in 12 and 13.

UFC doesn't look like a company that has diminished since 09-10 at all in North America, maybe plateaued in a very profitable ppv business. Forget that they're actually increasing their value and revenue streams exponentially abroad.

UFC is likely reinvesting everything into growth. So you get more fighters getting paid, higher salaries, more free fights that wouldn't be deemed ppv worthy in 2009 when everything was driven towards ppv revenue. It's very difficult to understand that Spike TV's sole purpose 2005- 2010 was producing content to generate PPV buys. That's far from the case with FSP1 and the Ultimate Fighter today, just talking America too.

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