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UnderGround Forums >> Study: Brain trauma in 30% of MMA fights


3/27/14 6:49 PM
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Thankful1
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TzTinkle - 
Qannebiss - Lots of assumptions being made in that study. Not a single fighter was actually observed or diagnosed in the course of the study. It's based on the probability that a knockout involves a concussion and on the assumption that blows to an unconscious opponent exacerbate any damage that comes as a result of these blows.

While these are not unreasonable assumptions to make, they're not exactly the basis for good science either. Phone Post 3.0

It does not matter one bit what this study says. CTE has been found in almost every football player, some soccer players, and every boxer ever examined. We can say with near certainty that the vast majority of MMA fighters have CTE. The argument is over what the effects will be 10-30 years down the line.

This. There is no way this sport can ever be safe.
3/27/14 7:47 PM
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca
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Thank god you morons trashing this study don't review grants. Phone Post 3.0
3/27/14 7:58 PM
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HexRei
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Qannebiss - Lots of assumptions being made in that study. Not a single fighter was actually observed or diagnosed in the course of the study. It's based on the probability that a knockout involves a concussion and on the assumption that blows to an unconscious opponent exacerbate any damage that comes as a result of these blows.

While these are not unreasonable assumptions to make, they're not exactly the basis for good science either. Phone Post 3.0

Yeah strangely they don't seem to feel that there's any added concussive damage in hitting a person in the head after they've been KO'ed, but woke back up during the standing 10 count repeatedly. I guess only extra blows on the ground count or something.
3/27/14 7:59 PM
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rbl
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca - Thank god you morons trashing this study don't review grants. Phone Post 3.0
Really though, their solution is 10 counts? So being dropped and taking a couple of punches before a stoppage is terrible, but being dropped and fighting for entire rounds, including more 10 and 8 counts, is fine? Post concussive blows are a huge issue but they are way more of a problem in boxing, and KO stats are pretty meaningless in the context of sports with different rules. Phone Post 3.0
3/27/14 8:01 PM
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HexRei
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca - Thank god you morons trashing this study don't review grants. Phone Post 3.0

Grants for watching videos and tallying? I could probably pay out a grant at that level if I felt like it, lol.
3/28/14 12:48 AM
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KingArchimedes
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I'm a new fan of MMA and I love it but after seeing what's happening to the NFL, I question whether MMA can ever become mainstream. It seems like the outcome of a MMA career for most is being BROKE and injured. What happens if/when MMA fighters start getting diagnosed with CTE, what legit (NBA/NFL prospect) super athlete would actually enter this sport? Phone Post 3.0
3/28/14 12:58 AM
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Thefifthscallop
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caposa -

Speaking of unnecessary trauma, look at this stoppage from EFC Africa this afternoon. Keep in mind they just had a fighter die in the cage 3 weeks ago:

Fuck that ref! The dude was clearly not defending himself. Phone Post 3.0
3/28/14 6:16 AM
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urch
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knee smash - MMA has had a problem with people wailing on unconscious fighters for a long time, yet people continue to just dismiss it with stupid reasoning like the fighter being in a zone or the ref hasn't dived on top of him yet, meanwhile people go insane over barely late submissions like palhares on pierce.

Ref steps in -- unequivocal signal to stop. Binary. With a rocked opponent, you have to put a value on what state he's in yourself, which is harder. I TOTALLY agree with the scorning of Palhares, but not Hendo after Bisping. I think the refs should be on their toes. Like, literally. Put your weight forward. Should be a component of Big John's classes. It makes it much easier to intervene in time.
3/28/14 12:25 PM
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Sinful1
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This gave me an idea

3/28/14 12:44 PM
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Jack_Bauer
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^^^^ hahahaha

3/28/14 1:16 PM
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knee smash
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I'm glad we have the UG to decide what's a flawed study and what's not, I guess a peer reviewed study published in a journal is not enough
3/28/14 1:57 PM
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SC MMA MD
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Studies like this are common in the early stages of researching a topic; and traumatic brain injury in MMA fighters is a relatively young topic. These results are not meant to be the last word on the issue, but rather to justify further research. The biggest concern I had about the article was the suggestion that having the fight pause for a count when a fighter is knocked down will reduce the likelihood of brain injuries occurring. Many researchers suggest that allowing a likely concussed fighter to "recover" briefly and then resume taking head punches is likely responsible for much of the brain injury seen in boxers. I believe a standing eight count or 10 count after knockdown is the last thing MMA needs Phone Post 3.0
3/28/14 6:04 PM
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jpm995
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I have no doubt mma is a dangerous sport but boxing is much worse. The whole concept of boxing is to punch people, mma has subs and lay and prey to offset the punching. Mma is rapidly moving to a more striking oriented sport but is still far behind boxing in punching damage. When an mma fighter is hurt he has the option to try for a takedown, boxers have no safe alternative except to cover up and run. The large boxing gloves may hurt more than help as they take many more blows before their ko'd. I've seen 4 boxers killed on tv and never seen anyone come close in mma. Benny 'kid' Parret by Emile Griffith, Kim by Ray Mancini, Breehaven Scottland [sp] can't remember by who, and the small Frenchman by Gatti [who was murdered in brazil]. In all those fights whats stands out was the horrific beatings they took. I was yelling at the tv to stop the Scottland fight The guy took hundreds of hugh shots but wouldn't go down or quit. His cornermen should have been lined up and shot. The only fight i ever saw where i was pretty sure the guy would die.
3/28/14 6:10 PM
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SensoriaUtopia
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Qannebiss - 
caposa -

Speaking of unnecessary trauma, look at this stoppage from EFC Africa this afternoon. Keep in mind they just had a fighter die in the cage 3 weeks ago:

That ref... fuck. Phone Post 3.0

Oh my God
3/28/14 6:12 PM
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jpm995
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I may have misspoke, i do remember thinking Igor V. was going to kill Enson Inoue in Pride. Glad Inoue's corner stopped it after the first round i'm sure Enson wanted to continue.
3/28/14 6:24 PM
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rkm456
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thefear - Not sure if this has already been said....BUT the comparison between sports is ridiculous! Football players, hockey players have 100's more matches/'exposures' than mma fighters have fights. Average mma fighter = 30 fights. Average NFL/hockey player =?? Over 100 matches! So they can multiply their stats for those sports accordingly and re-publish the findings. Am I RIGHT?! Phone Post 3.0

Sorry, but you're not. 30 fights sure, but you left out the countless hours they spend sparring. Head gear doesn't guarantee prevention of concussive or sub-concussive impacts. you also don't need to be ko'ed to receive a concussion. It's entirely possible, and likely, that many of the fighters in our favorite slug fest fights, suffered multiple concussions during those classic bouts. Just look to last weekend, does anyone here honestly think Hendo's brain didn't run into his skull at least once in the first 2 rounds?

The brain is an incredibly delicate thing. The only thing more absurd than people here saying the study is "flawed" and arguing that watching people get KTFO'ed serves no merit as a brain damage observation; is the idea that a group of human beings actually think that you need to do a study to figure out that people who get punched in the head for a living might sustain brain damage.
3/28/14 6:30 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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I think people are not fools and know what a proper scientific study is, this isn't, this is conjecture. Usually science is there to take out the guesswork out of things.

Anyway, I would love to have in depth studies on this issue, the more we know the better, but we're way past "watching tapes".
3/28/14 6:35 PM
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House Boru
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the truth is there are A LOT of punches to already KO'd opponents and anyone denying it is just being ridiculous. yes these guys are trained to not stop until the ref grabs them. that cant be debated. there are also however, many examples of guys that do take the initiative to not follow the really fucked opponents down and bash them (ex: Hunto). why rely on the reaction time of another human (the ref) and settle for a race between a tunnel visioned trained killer and an out of shape middle aged referee? an air horn that can be triggered by the ref inside the ring and even possibly a second outside. when it sounds its like the prison yard- everyone immediately hit the deck. it couldnt hurt anything. only help
3/28/14 6:52 PM
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MasterofMartialArts
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caposa -

I have no clue how accurate this study is, but I do think referees have to do a better job protecting unconscious fighters. Besides that Bellator KO, this was another recent one I found disturbing. Referee is Osiris Maia

Jesus fucking Christ, these refs are dangerous Phone Post 3.0
3/28/14 6:52 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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House Boru - the truth is there are A LOT of punches to already KO'd opponents and anyone denying it is just being ridiculous. yes these guys are trained to not stop until the ref grabs them. that cant be debated. there are also however, many examples of guys that do take the initiative to not follow the really fucked opponents down and bash them (ex: Hunto). why rely on the reaction time of another human (the ref) and settle for a race between a tunnel visioned trained killer and an out of shape middle aged referee? an air horn that can be triggered by the ref inside the ring and even possibly a second outside. when it sounds its like the prison yard- everyone immediately hit the deck. it couldnt hurt anything. only help

I like your idea, it might be a good way to stop fights sooner. At least, they could trial it and see how it goes.
3/28/14 7:39 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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^ I would like to know what a guy like Herb Dean or BJM would think of that suggestion. Tweet them your idea :)
3/28/14 8:26 PM
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urch
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Mertvaya Ruka - ^ I would like to know what a guy like Herb Dean or BJM would think of that suggestion. Tweet them your idea :)

This.
3/29/14 3:18 AM
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donkypunch55
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Brian Rule - You guys can nitpick this study all you want yet the elephant remains in the room, and you don't want to admit it. Yes, because this is fighting of course people are going to suffer a degree of trauma, however it's extremely important to limit that trauma to what's justified and what is fair.

NO fighter deserves to be pummeled while already unconscious. The moment a fighter becomes unconscious the fight should immediately stop so that both fighters can begin to receive medical attention. With every stoppage, the KO'd fighter, his family – anyone who gives a shit about him as a person – should see this happen and happen as quick as possible. We should want the statistic of 2.6 strikes after KO strike to be 0. Whether that will ever happen is another issue, but it's far too high as is.

So who needs to do a better job? The fighter doing the KO-ing should stop attacking. The ref needs to be better skilled at recognizing the KO and stopping the action. The promotion needs to better address blatant attacks on unconscious fighters.

For example, as much as I love and admire Dan Henderson, he should've been punished in some way for the leaping shot landed on Bisping. He knew better, as he's admitted to knowing Bisping was out before leaping in, yet the UFC has embraced the moment, using it in countless promos, highlights, etc, and most every fan in turn doesn't think twice about how fucked up it is. This sort of strikes often happen in fights, and it's no surprise. My beef is less against Dan here than it is with the lack of precedent curbing post-KO attacks.

In the end, Dana can talk all he wants about how much he cares for his fighters, but until he does something about post-KO attacks – something so obviously wrong and uncaring on every level – everything he says will be vapid spoken words. No amount of rhetoric or chest-puffing will change this
Fuck that's a damn good post.

Vu Phone Post 3.0
3/29/14 3:21 AM
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inf0
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you need brain trauma to buy ufc ppvs

 

3/29/14 4:16 AM
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XIII
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That study might be 'flawed' but if you think that percentage is 0% and not 30%, you're just kidding yourself IMO.

Let's just pretend that the guys that made the study are complete idiots and that concussions have no effect whatsoever. Sure. Go ahead.


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