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4/23/14 1:02 PM
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zackthewop
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Mr. Wright -
zackthewop - Question

Maybe stupid but still

Didn't the federal government acquire this land when they took in nevada? If this is the federal governments land don't they have the right to do whatever they want with it? Especially if the guy isn't paying up. Phone Post 3.0

it was acquired by the federal govt in 1848 from mexico.

nevada became a state in 1864.

bundy and his family supposedly moved there in the 1870's and had the documentation to back it up, but have so far not shown any proof of said documentation.

the bundys got their 150acre homestead from the federal govt for free. they've never owned the land they free graze on. its always been owned by the Feds.

That's my point. So what right does he have to the land? Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 1:10 PM
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Res ipsa loquitar
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So he doesnt recognize the same federal government that granted his family the land?

Brilliant.

4/23/14 1:11 PM
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PatK
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ksacs revenge - 
Animal Mother - I don't know much about this, but as far as the law goes how is this guy anything but a welfare rancher? I don't understand the support for him. Please esplain. Phone Post 3.0
Welfare for the wealthy is just fine. It only becomes a problem when the poor receive welfare. Phone Post 3.0

That must be why the government is going after him. Because he's so poor.

Please comb your hair with a 12 gauge

4/23/14 1:15 PM
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ksacs revenge
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PatK -
ksacs revenge - 
Animal Mother - I don't know much about this, but as far as the law goes how is this guy anything but a welfare rancher? I don't understand the support for him. Please esplain. Phone Post 3.0
Welfare for the wealthy is just fine. It only becomes a problem when the poor receive welfare. Phone Post 3.0

That must be why the government is going after him. Because he's so poor.

Please comb your hair with a 12 gauge

Maybe I should be more clear.

Welfare is only a problem if it's for the poor...according to conservative.

But feel free to drown in a puddle of piss. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 1:41 PM
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BiggGunn
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Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Bundy openly admits he stopped paying taxes on it, and has continued using it, since 1993. Starting in 1993, thought 2013... That's 21 years. Up to a 100,000 fine each year, that's a 2.1 million dollar fine, with a 5 year sentence possible also.

Bundy, obviously trying to claim the smallest amount possible, says that he owes (or in his words, would owe, if he recognized the United States) at LEAST 300,000.

So the short version is - you're right. The million is false. Bundy, assuming he gets the maximum fine as this is pretty willful tax evasion, would owe at LEAST 2.4 million, have a 105 year sentence (if sentenced to consecutive years). Why aren't they arresting him for tax evasion? I don't know - but the relevant facts to determine if he has evaded paying his taxes aren't in dispute. My guess is that the government is trying to get a resolution out of this without placing a bigger strain on our overcrowded prison system.
4/23/14 1:41 PM
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neonbelly
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I'm naturally sympathetic to people trying to fight the man, but the infowars types have picked the wrong hill to die on in this instance. The land isn't his, and the government showed up with guns because he threatened to kill people.
4/23/14 1:59 PM
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clattymine
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Strandman - 
Lofland - Does Bundy's side have any kind of serious response to the specific facts mentioned here?

Yes they do: "The federal government is evil!"

and "My pappy said so"

4/23/14 2:07 PM
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Tidbits
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sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
DoovyB - 

i dont trust people who are always on the same side in every debate


You obviously missed where I was originally on Bundy's side, until information started to come out.
What information? Phone Post 3.0

That he lost multiple court cases, that he threatened officials, that he was profiting off the use of public land, that he was not just some "rancher", but a multi-millionaire, that his story about his family and having rights to the land that predated the governments is bullshit ....
4/23/14 2:15 PM
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BarkLikeADog
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He's not getting charged with tax evasion because the fees & associated fines aren't taxes. At least not in the legal sense of the word.

Anyhoo, clearly the best use of this land is for a reality show in which the Bundy family & the Paiutes battle to the death.
4/23/14 2:15 PM
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Fake Pie
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Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"

4/23/14 2:44 PM
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Darup
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Fake Pie -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"

If you could read I did Phone Post
4/23/14 3:03 PM
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Isaac Bickerstaff
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neonbelly - I'm naturally sympathetic to people trying to fight the man, but the infowars types have picked the wrong hill to die on in this instance. The land isn't his, and the government showed up with guns because he threatened to kill people.

This actually has more merit than the response to the tea tax back in the day.  My guess is that this is symptomatic of a larger movement or trend and what sets it off might turn out to be as trivial and silly as what sets off the Boston tea party.  In fact, Americans have far more provocation for a full on revolution than those rich white dudes ever did.

4/23/14 3:07 PM
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BradGluckman
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Lofland - Does Bundy's side have any kind of serious response to the specific facts mentioned here?

4/23/14 3:29 PM
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sparkuri
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Tidbits -
sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
DoovyB - 

i dont trust people who are always on the same side in every debate


You obviously missed where I was originally on Bundy's side, until information started to come out.
What information? Phone Post 3.0

That he lost multiple court cases, that he threatened officials, that he was profiting off the use of public land, that he was not just some "rancher", but a multi-millionaire, that his story about his family and having rights to the land that predated the governments is bullshit ....
Only that last bit has come to light since the beginning, so when we're you on Bundy's side? Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 3:35 PM
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Tidbits
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sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
DoovyB - 

i dont trust people who are always on the same side in every debate


You obviously missed where I was originally on Bundy's side, until information started to come out.
What information? Phone Post 3.0

That he lost multiple court cases, that he threatened officials, that he was profiting off the use of public land, that he was not just some "rancher", but a multi-millionaire, that his story about his family and having rights to the land that predated the governments is bullshit ....
Only that last bit has come to light since the beginning, so when we're you on Bundy's side? Phone Post 3.0

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=2308974&page=4


Tidbits - Waiting on all the gun nuts who scream so loudly here about having their guns to protect themselves from a tyrannical government to put up or shut up. If they believe so strongly they need to be packing up and heading to Nevada.

BTW, I kind of am siding with this guy but, it seems that the land is not owned by him but by the Federal Gov and he was paying to use it.

My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars.



So essentially it is like you renting the place you live in. You stop paying rent or decide to use the residence in a way the landlord doesn't like and the landlord revokes your rights to live there.

From a legal sense it seems pretty cut & dry although the "preemptive rights" thing is interesting, but it would seem to me that actual ownership of the land trumps those rights.



I accept your apology.
4/23/14 3:45 PM
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attjack
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Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

Imagine some players in the hood pulled this or some crew of tweakers got all anti government and congregated on public property with a bunch of assault rifles. The only reason Bundy and friends did not all go to jail is because he's rich and gets treated special because of that. If you're going to be mad at the feds it should be because they are treating this asshole special because he has money. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 3:58 PM
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Trust
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Mixed Martial Arts, L.L.C., Moderator
Fake Pie - 
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"


They were removing his cattle, weren't they?  I mean I assume so since they gave some back, so they must have rounded some up.  Why did they not do more of that?  

4/23/14 4:00 PM
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Fake Pie
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Darup - 
Fake Pie -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"

If you could read I did Phone Post

No, you didn't. What do they do about the cows? Just let them roam for free in violation of the court decisions?
4/23/14 4:02 PM
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Fake Pie
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Trust - 
Fake Pie - 
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"


They were removing his cattle, weren't they?  I mean I assume so since they gave some back, so they must have rounded some up.  Why did they not do more of that?  


Um, that's exactly what they were doing which is what led to the confrontation.

What are people objecting to exactly? They rounded his cattle up. They had armed LEOs there because he threatened to shoot them if they ever rounded his cattle up. He responded by surrounding them with armed folks threatening to make good on his promise.

What exactly did the feds do wrong here?
4/23/14 4:04 PM
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The Donkeypuncher
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BradGluckman - 
Lofland - Does Bundy's side have any kind of serious response to the specific facts mentioned here?


I legitimately thought this thread was going to be about the episode where the Bundy's and Darcy's were beefing over the apple tree and property lines.  I'm leaving disappointed.

4/23/14 5:17 PM
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sparkuri
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Tidbits - 
sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
DoovyB - 

i dont trust people who are always on the same side in every debate


You obviously missed where I was originally on Bundy's side, until information started to come out.
What information? Phone Post 3.0

That he lost multiple court cases, that he threatened officials, that he was profiting off the use of public land, that he was not just some "rancher", but a multi-millionaire, that his story about his family and having rights to the land that predated the governments is bullshit ....
Only that last bit has come to light since the beginning, so when we're you on Bundy's side? Phone Post 3.0

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=2308974&page=4


Tidbits - Waiting on all the gun nuts who scream so loudly here about having their guns to protect themselves from a tyrannical government to put up or shut up. If they believe so strongly they need to be packing up and heading to Nevada.

BTW, I kind of am siding with this guy but, it seems that the land is not owned by him but by the Federal Gov and he was paying to use it.

My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars.



So essentially it is like you renting the place you live in. You stop paying rent or decide to use the residence in a way the landlord doesn't like and the landlord revokes your rights to live there.

From a legal sense it seems pretty cut & dry although the "preemptive rights" thing is interesting, but it would seem to me that actual ownership of the land trumps those rights.



I accept your apology.

Wow.

You went in knowing barely anything.
In true form not much has changed.

"Pre-emptive" rights have never been the issue. Not then, and not now, despite being brought up, and WE'LL SEE how that unfolds.

To answer your stupid question in the post HERE, "Why doesn't everybody go to Nevada and fight the government", here's why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTIKM_H1gM0



For those of you wondering what leg Bundy has to stand on, it's the same leg that has always stood up against a tyrannical government.

OUR government is employing ex-military, (guys who know nothing but war, trained since before the development of their frontal lobe) to strong arm corporate interests.

I keep hearing the word "taxes". Now correct me if I'm wrong, are these not "grazing fees" he's been avoiding?

Now why is he not paying them?

His claim: Because the BLM has not been using the money to improve the land, they are using it to buy out all the other farmers, while raising fee prices, squeezing all the farmers/cowboys out of the territory.

What do we have CURRENTLY to substantiate this?

Regarding land improvement, nothing I've seen.

HOWEVER, regarding squeezing people out of their land, there was a post on the other thread with a link to a woman's story.
She claimed that since the beginning until now, "grazing fees" have gone up 90%, and paying grazers have gone from

FIFTY-TWO, TO THREE

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/04/open-letter-from-bundy-neighbor-cliven-bundy-is-a-hero-2940244.html

Who's behind Bundy?
ALL THE RANCHERS AND COWBOYS, governors, mayors, sheriffs, city council members, and on and on and on.

Has anyone ever seen the movie Shane?

This situation is like that, only the assholes are the government, and instead of buying them out, they are bleeding all the farmers dry, until ALL THE LAND is "federal".

52-3 in 40 years.

Welfare?
That is the stupidest thing I've heard.
This is a victimless crime. This is also how the government controls the people. Let some time go by, let the turtle story die, bring up a welfare double standard, and convince the left that this is class welfare, and...... "*And pretty soon, they will be clamoring for us to drone strike them!, PERFECT! MwaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Range war?

This guy said what anyone would say if they're trying to steal everything he's worked for his entire life.
While he's been working, ranching, employing, ect., the government has been making money selling debt and stealing, from IT'S own people.

Is it bad to be a "millionaire"?

Well, first off, he's employing people.
Second, he may not be one if he paid grazing fees. He may be in the same boat as other's allegedly squeezed off the land.
Third, the word millionaire means jack shit anymore. You've GOT to be one to retire comfortably, BEFORE YOU'RE DEAD, THANKS TO THE GOVERNMENT.

The state and states surrounding stand on Bundy's side.
That means ALOT.

Why would anyone want government to have more of a grip on people???!!!!

I have to tell myself that anyone taking a stance against Bundy is
Misinformed, or
morally corrupt, or
vested interest, as in government/socialists, ect.

If some dude is having his cattle graze in the desert, SO WHAT?
How does this harm you?
How does it affect you?

TORTOISE!!!!
4/23/14 5:55 PM
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jacktripper
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attjack -
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

Imagine some players in the hood pulled this or some crew of tweakers got all anti government and congregated on public property with a bunch of assault rifles. The only reason Bundy and friends did not all go to jail is because he's rich and gets treated special because of that. If you're going to be mad at the feds it should be because they are treating this asshole special because he has money. Phone Post 3.0
Ever hear of temple 12? Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 6:09 PM
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neonbelly
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Isaac Bickerstaff - 
neonbelly - I'm naturally sympathetic to people trying to fight the man, but the infowars types have picked the wrong hill to die on in this instance. The land isn't his, and the government showed up with guns because he threatened to kill people.

This actually has more merit than the response to the tea tax back in the day.  My guess is that this is symptomatic of a larger movement or trend and what sets it off might turn out to be as trivial and silly as what sets off the Boston tea party.  In fact, Americans have far more provocation for a full on revolution than those rich white dudes ever did.


Not that the content of your posts don't merit attention themselves, but I always find myself reading your posts extra carefully and with consideration because of your dignified av. How silly I am.

I think everything getting publicized on the internet give the illusion of a lot of "larger movements" that are ultimately just shadows. And besides, how many of those skirmish line cowboys from that one video voted for Romney?

People in civilized wealthy countries have too much to lose in terms of wealth and comfort to ever get serious about fighting a revolution against their own governments.
4/23/14 6:38 PM
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Isaac Bickerstaff
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neonbelly - 
Isaac Bickerstaff - 
neonbelly - I'm naturally sympathetic to people trying to fight the man, but the infowars types have picked the wrong hill to die on in this instance. The land isn't his, and the government showed up with guns because he threatened to kill people.

This actually has more merit than the response to the tea tax back in the day.  My guess is that this is symptomatic of a larger movement or trend and what sets it off might turn out to be as trivial and silly as what sets off the Boston tea party.  In fact, Americans have far more provocation for a full on revolution than those rich white dudes ever did.


Not that the content of your posts don't merit attention themselves, but I always find myself reading your posts extra carefully and with consideration because of your dignified av. How silly I am.

I think everything getting publicized on the internet give the illusion of a lot of "larger movements" that are ultimately just shadows. And besides, how many of those skirmish line cowboys from that one video voted for Romney?

People in civilized wealthy countries have too much to lose in terms of wealth and comfort to ever get serious about fighting a revolution against their own governments.

Yes they may be shadows.  The American Revolution was largely a minority movement and most people wouldn't have guessed they would actually pull it off.  The odds were not in their favor.   Anyway, my point isn't that these movements will ultimately result in an actual revolution (I don't have enough faith in Americans being willing to do that), but that there have been movements of discontent in history that don't actually get started for the best of reasons.  I think these surface reasons can be indicative of a deeper and unspoken contempt for authorities. 

I do think it is significant that the feds got backed down this time.  It might be a mere temporary retreat, but the power of internet media put them in a position where they couldn't hide a massacre or even anything perceived as a massacre. 

4/23/14 10:19 PM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/22/jon-stewart-rips-hannity_n_5189684.html

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