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OtherGround Forums >> Property Records Cast Doubt On Bundy’s Claims


4/23/14 12:30 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Really want to know the truth of this situation. The government seems to have overreacted for sure, but why are they taking action to begin with? Is it true about his failure to pay a bill? Didn't he try to pay the county, though? Were all the surrounding ranchers bought out by the BLM? If so, why? What's their intent?
4/23/14 12:34 PM
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ksacs revenge
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Animal Mother - I don't know much about this, but as far as the law goes how is this guy anything but a welfare rancher? I don't understand the support for him. Please esplain. Phone Post 3.0
Welfare for the wealthy is just fine. It only becomes a problem when the poor receive welfare. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 12:38 PM
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zackthewop
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Question

Maybe stupid but still

Didn't the federal government acquire this land when they took in nevada? If this is the federal governments land don't they have the right to do whatever they want with it? Especially if the guy isn't paying up. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 12:45 PM
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Mr. Wright
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zackthewop - Question

Maybe stupid but still

Didn't the federal government acquire this land when they took in nevada? If this is the federal governments land don't they have the right to do whatever they want with it? Especially if the guy isn't paying up. Phone Post 3.0

it was acquired by the federal govt in 1848 from mexico.

nevada became a state in 1864.

bundy and his family supposedly moved there in the 1870's and had the documentation to back it up, but have so far not shown any proof of said documentation.

the bundys got their 150acre homestead from the federal govt for free. they've never owned the land they free graze on. its always been owned by the Feds.

4/23/14 1:02 PM
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zackthewop
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Mr. Wright -
zackthewop - Question

Maybe stupid but still

Didn't the federal government acquire this land when they took in nevada? If this is the federal governments land don't they have the right to do whatever they want with it? Especially if the guy isn't paying up. Phone Post 3.0

it was acquired by the federal govt in 1848 from mexico.

nevada became a state in 1864.

bundy and his family supposedly moved there in the 1870's and had the documentation to back it up, but have so far not shown any proof of said documentation.

the bundys got their 150acre homestead from the federal govt for free. they've never owned the land they free graze on. its always been owned by the Feds.

That's my point. So what right does he have to the land? Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 1:10 PM
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Res ipsa loquitar
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So he doesnt recognize the same federal government that granted his family the land?

Brilliant.

4/23/14 1:11 PM
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PatK
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ksacs revenge - 
Animal Mother - I don't know much about this, but as far as the law goes how is this guy anything but a welfare rancher? I don't understand the support for him. Please esplain. Phone Post 3.0
Welfare for the wealthy is just fine. It only becomes a problem when the poor receive welfare. Phone Post 3.0

That must be why the government is going after him. Because he's so poor.

Please comb your hair with a 12 gauge

4/23/14 1:14 PM
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Mr. Wright
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Res ipsa loquitar - 

So he doesnt recognize the same federal government that granted his family the land?

Brilliant.


correct.

or that created the federal highway system that allows him to move his cattle. etc etc etc.

4/23/14 1:15 PM
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ksacs revenge
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PatK -
ksacs revenge - 
Animal Mother - I don't know much about this, but as far as the law goes how is this guy anything but a welfare rancher? I don't understand the support for him. Please esplain. Phone Post 3.0
Welfare for the wealthy is just fine. It only becomes a problem when the poor receive welfare. Phone Post 3.0

That must be why the government is going after him. Because he's so poor.

Please comb your hair with a 12 gauge

Maybe I should be more clear.

Welfare is only a problem if it's for the poor...according to conservative.

But feel free to drown in a puddle of piss. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 1:41 PM
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BiggGunn
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Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Bundy openly admits he stopped paying taxes on it, and has continued using it, since 1993. Starting in 1993, thought 2013... That's 21 years. Up to a 100,000 fine each year, that's a 2.1 million dollar fine, with a 5 year sentence possible also.

Bundy, obviously trying to claim the smallest amount possible, says that he owes (or in his words, would owe, if he recognized the United States) at LEAST 300,000.

So the short version is - you're right. The million is false. Bundy, assuming he gets the maximum fine as this is pretty willful tax evasion, would owe at LEAST 2.4 million, have a 105 year sentence (if sentenced to consecutive years). Why aren't they arresting him for tax evasion? I don't know - but the relevant facts to determine if he has evaded paying his taxes aren't in dispute. My guess is that the government is trying to get a resolution out of this without placing a bigger strain on our overcrowded prison system.
4/23/14 1:41 PM
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neonbelly
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I'm naturally sympathetic to people trying to fight the man, but the infowars types have picked the wrong hill to die on in this instance. The land isn't his, and the government showed up with guns because he threatened to kill people.
4/23/14 1:59 PM
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clattymine
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Strandman - 
Lofland - Does Bundy's side have any kind of serious response to the specific facts mentioned here?

Yes they do: "The federal government is evil!"

and "My pappy said so"

4/23/14 2:07 PM
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Tidbits
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sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
DoovyB - 

i dont trust people who are always on the same side in every debate


You obviously missed where I was originally on Bundy's side, until information started to come out.
What information? Phone Post 3.0

That he lost multiple court cases, that he threatened officials, that he was profiting off the use of public land, that he was not just some "rancher", but a multi-millionaire, that his story about his family and having rights to the land that predated the governments is bullshit ....
4/23/14 2:15 PM
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BarkLikeADog
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He's not getting charged with tax evasion because the fees & associated fines aren't taxes. At least not in the legal sense of the word.

Anyhoo, clearly the best use of this land is for a reality show in which the Bundy family & the Paiutes battle to the death.
4/23/14 2:15 PM
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Fake Pie
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Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"

4/23/14 2:44 PM
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Darup
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Fake Pie -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"

If you could read I did Phone Post
4/23/14 3:03 PM
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Isaac Bickerstaff
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neonbelly - I'm naturally sympathetic to people trying to fight the man, but the infowars types have picked the wrong hill to die on in this instance. The land isn't his, and the government showed up with guns because he threatened to kill people.

This actually has more merit than the response to the tea tax back in the day.  My guess is that this is symptomatic of a larger movement or trend and what sets it off might turn out to be as trivial and silly as what sets off the Boston tea party.  In fact, Americans have far more provocation for a full on revolution than those rich white dudes ever did.

4/23/14 3:07 PM
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BradGluckman
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Lofland - Does Bundy's side have any kind of serious response to the specific facts mentioned here?

4/23/14 3:29 PM
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sparkuri
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Tidbits -
sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
DoovyB - 

i dont trust people who are always on the same side in every debate


You obviously missed where I was originally on Bundy's side, until information started to come out.
What information? Phone Post 3.0

That he lost multiple court cases, that he threatened officials, that he was profiting off the use of public land, that he was not just some "rancher", but a multi-millionaire, that his story about his family and having rights to the land that predated the governments is bullshit ....
Only that last bit has come to light since the beginning, so when we're you on Bundy's side? Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 3:35 PM
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Tidbits
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sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
sparkuri - 
Tidbits -
DoovyB - 

i dont trust people who are always on the same side in every debate


You obviously missed where I was originally on Bundy's side, until information started to come out.
What information? Phone Post 3.0

That he lost multiple court cases, that he threatened officials, that he was profiting off the use of public land, that he was not just some "rancher", but a multi-millionaire, that his story about his family and having rights to the land that predated the governments is bullshit ....
Only that last bit has come to light since the beginning, so when we're you on Bundy's side? Phone Post 3.0

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=2308974&page=4


Tidbits - Waiting on all the gun nuts who scream so loudly here about having their guns to protect themselves from a tyrannical government to put up or shut up. If they believe so strongly they need to be packing up and heading to Nevada.

BTW, I kind of am siding with this guy but, it seems that the land is not owned by him but by the Federal Gov and he was paying to use it.

My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars.



So essentially it is like you renting the place you live in. You stop paying rent or decide to use the residence in a way the landlord doesn't like and the landlord revokes your rights to live there.

From a legal sense it seems pretty cut & dry although the "preemptive rights" thing is interesting, but it would seem to me that actual ownership of the land trumps those rights.



I accept your apology.
4/23/14 3:45 PM
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attjack
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Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

Imagine some players in the hood pulled this or some crew of tweakers got all anti government and congregated on public property with a bunch of assault rifles. The only reason Bundy and friends did not all go to jail is because he's rich and gets treated special because of that. If you're going to be mad at the feds it should be because they are treating this asshole special because he has money. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 3:58 PM
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Trust
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Mixed Martial Arts, L.L.C., Moderator
Fake Pie - 
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"


They were removing his cattle, weren't they?  I mean I assume so since they gave some back, so they must have rounded some up.  Why did they not do more of that?  

4/23/14 4:00 PM
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Fake Pie
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Darup - 
Fake Pie -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"

If you could read I did Phone Post

No, you didn't. What do they do about the cows? Just let them roam for free in violation of the court decisions?
4/23/14 4:02 PM
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Fake Pie
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Fake Pie - 
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup - 
Mr. Wright -
Darup -  I didn't think many thought bundy was fully in the right. The support mainly comes from the backlash against the government for sending in a small army to take the man's cattle over where they were grazing. Phone Post

the guy threatened to kill anyone that touched his cattle. how else were they supposed to react?

Probably anything other than send in a small army and then leave without accomplishing anything. Phone Post

you're going to have to do better than that.

the guy's ignored court orders for 20+ years, threatened to shoot/kill anyone that went on his property and openly talked of having a range war with the Feds. what, in your opinion, should the Feds have done to stop Bundys cattle from grazing on public land and collect the fees/penalties in excess of 1 million dollars?

First the million dollar number isn't true. Second if he really back taxes why isn't the government arresting him for tax evasion? Taking his cows doesn't solve anything especially taking them by force. Like we saw it just escalates the situation and makes the government look really bad. Phone Post

Court said his cows cant use that land until he pays. He kept letting his cattle onto the land. What are they supposed to do? Be specific, don't just say "well not THAT!"


They were removing his cattle, weren't they?  I mean I assume so since they gave some back, so they must have rounded some up.  Why did they not do more of that?  


Um, that's exactly what they were doing which is what led to the confrontation.

What are people objecting to exactly? They rounded his cattle up. They had armed LEOs there because he threatened to shoot them if they ever rounded his cattle up. He responded by surrounding them with armed folks threatening to make good on his promise.

What exactly did the feds do wrong here?
4/23/14 4:04 PM
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The Donkeypuncher
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BradGluckman - 
Lofland - Does Bundy's side have any kind of serious response to the specific facts mentioned here?


I legitimately thought this thread was going to be about the episode where the Bundy's and Darcy's were beefing over the apple tree and property lines.  I'm leaving disappointed.


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