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OtherGround Forums >> Sotomayor Pulls the Race Card...


4/23/14 11:39 AM
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HereWeAre
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A white hispanic who went to two ivy leaugue schools. tafuck does she know about racism?  Did someone call her a wetback in 8th grade and make her cry?


Are you saying that there is no racism against hispanics amongst the predominately rich white ivy league colleges?

4/23/14 12:15 PM
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Wes_Mantooth
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checkuroil - Until entrenched cultural issues are dealt with, throwing kids into colleges they are not qualified to attend will not help. More funding for family planning and emphasis on early education could help far more than race based admissions at a college level. There is an entire segment of a certain cultural population that still vilifies studying. I see how people could think that creating the opportunity to attend school might change the culture , but I don't think it does.

I am Jewish. My people emphasize studying over everything. Mothers talk about their children's education as a badge of honor. In my family, you would not dream of getting anything less than a masters degree. In fact, my degree from ucla, which was a top 25 school when I went, is scoffed at compared to my cousins who all went to penn and Yale.

When other cultures start to follow suit in pushing their kids in this manner, then there will be real change. Kids learn to be interested in the value of education from their family. If that value is not there, then it's rare for a child to find it on their own

Bill Cosby tried to address these issues and was crucified. Maybe other leaders can be successful Phone Post 3.0

this.

the only thing my parents cared about when i was growing up was my education. period. the end. my dad worked like madman so my mom was able to stay home and monitor our education in elementary/middle school. they laid the solid ground work early so that by the time i was in high school studying and a desire to learn were all i cared about. sure, i strayed off the path occasionally, but at the end of the day i was focused on success because of my parents and hard work.

until we see the parents attitude change, their children never will.


Agreed. I have a huge family (tons of brothers & sisters). My parents offered to pay for 100% of our education all the way through college (Catholic grade school & high school, in-state public college). We never had vacations, never had cars bought for us, we didn't live high on the hog in any sense. My parents valued education so they provided that for those of us that wanted it.

You can't correct (or even make a dent in) cultural problems using government programs.
4/23/14 12:20 PM
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4pdboxing
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checkuroil - Until entrenched cultural issues are dealt with, throwing kids into colleges they are not qualified to attend will not help. More funding for family planning and emphasis on early education could help far more than race based admissions at a college level. There is an entire segment of a certain cultural population that still vilifies studying. I see how people could think that creating the opportunity to attend school might change the culture , but I don't think it does.

I am Jewish. My people emphasize studying over everything. Mothers talk about their children's education as a badge of honor. In my family, you would not dream of getting anything less than a masters degree. In fact, my degree from ucla, which was a top 25 school when I went, is scoffed at compared to my cousins who all went to penn and Yale.

When other cultures start to follow suit in pushing their kids in this manner, then there will be real change. Kids learn to be interested in the value of education from their family. If that value is not there, then it's rare for a child to find it on their own

Bill Cosby tried to address these issues and was crucified. Maybe other leaders can be successful Phone Post 3.0

this
4/23/14 12:31 PM
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e. kaye
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Wise Latina.  So we were told.

4/23/14 12:48 PM
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C0NAN
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I do think it's possible for the government to change cultural priorities with propaganda. Think about the Cold War period.

Just 10 years ago, most people I knew opposed gay marriage. What about now?

Most boys (of all races) feel a sense of inspiration and envy when they see someone who is really good at basketball, football, boarding/skating/skiing, fighting, etc.

They could also be culturally influenced to feel the same sense of inspiration when they work with someone who is on another level mathematically, or is a chess prodigy.

The thing people don't understand is, there will always be an underclass, because there will always be smarter, more athletic, more capable, and more competent people.

Whether it's the military elite class in North Korea (the most genetically athletic, strategic, ruthless or well trained young men), or the American 1%, some people will be better off, and some people will be worse.

The only thing these liberal "racial" policies would accomplish is replace the cultural inferiority with a genetic inferiority.

If somehow, all of the "genetically smart or hardworking" blacks and Hispanics were all motivated and incentivized by the government to excel academically, there would still be an underclass.

This new underclass would consist of all the "genetically stupid or lazy" whites, blacks, Hispanics and Asians.

Maybe a society stratified along genetic potential rather than cultural differences would be an improvement, but it is an illogical myth that poverty and the underclass can be eliminated.

The poor will always consist of people with bad culture or bad genetics, or both.
4/23/14 12:58 PM
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Lite
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checkuroil - Until entrenched cultural issues are dealt with, throwing kids into colleges they are not qualified to attend will not help. More funding for family planning and emphasis on early education could help far more than race based admissions at a college level. There is an entire segment of a certain cultural population that still vilifies studying. I see how people could think that creating the opportunity to attend school might change the culture , but I don't think it does.

I am Jewish. My people emphasize studying over everything. Mothers talk about their children's education as a badge of honor. In my family, you would not dream of getting anything less than a masters degree. In fact, my degree from ucla, which was a top 25 school when I went, is scoffed at compared to my cousins who all went to penn and Yale.

When other cultures start to follow suit in pushing their kids in this manner, then there will be real change. Kids learn to be interested in the value of education from their family. If that value is not there, then it's rare for a child to find it on their own

Bill Cosby tried to address these issues and was crucified. Maybe other leaders can be successful Phone Post 3.0

I agree with the argument for family planning and early education, but only note that its mostly the same people who are against affirmative action that are against funding those things.
4/23/14 1:07 PM
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PatK
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checkuroil - Until entrenched cultural issues are dealt with, throwing kids into colleges they are not qualified to attend will not help. More funding for family planning and emphasis on early education could help far more than race based admissions at a college level. There is an entire segment of a certain cultural population that still vilifies studying. I see how people could think that creating the opportunity to attend school might change the culture , but I don't think it does.

I am Jewish. My people emphasize studying over everything. Mothers talk about their children's education as a badge of honor. In my family, you would not dream of getting anything less than a masters degree. In fact, my degree from ucla, which was a top 25 school when I went, is scoffed at compared to my cousins who all went to penn and Yale.

When other cultures start to follow suit in pushing their kids in this manner, then there will be real change. Kids learn to be interested in the value of education from their family. If that value is not there, then it's rare for a child to find it on their own

Bill Cosby tried to address these issues and was crucified. Maybe other leaders can be successful Phone Post 3.0

This.

 

4/23/14 1:10 PM
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Ryan Prouty
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Black Belt, Peoria, IL

In Sotomayors defense she had it tough growing up the only hispanic in NYC.

4/23/14 1:18 PM
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Horus2001
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checkuroil - Until entrenched cultural issues are dealt with, throwing kids into colleges they are not qualified to attend will not help. More funding for family planning and emphasis on early education could help far more than race based admissions at a college level. There is an entire segment of a certain cultural population that still vilifies studying. I see how people could think that creating the opportunity to attend school might change the culture , but I don't think it does.

I am Jewish. My people emphasize studying over everything. Mothers talk about their children's education as a badge of honor. In my family, you would not dream of getting anything less than a masters degree. In fact, my degree from ucla, which was a top 25 school when I went, is scoffed at compared to my cousins who all went to penn and Yale.

When other cultures start to follow suit in pushing their kids in this manner, then there will be real change. Kids learn to be interested in the value of education from their family. If that value is not there, then it's rare for a child to find it on their own

Bill Cosby tried to address these issues and was crucified. Maybe other leaders can be successful Phone Post 3.0
As long as the phrase "acting white" continues to fall from the lips of people of certain ethnic groups, as long as they consider speaking in complete and clear sentences, having critical thinking skills and being able to read beyond a 12th grade level is considered trying to be white, then nothing is going to change. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 1:30 PM
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Fighting
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A white hispanic who went to two ivy leaugue schools. tafuck does she know about racism?  Did someone call her a wetback in 8th grade and make her cry?


Are you saying that there is no racism against hispanics amongst the predominately rich white ivy league colleges?


Yes

4/23/14 1:43 PM
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DevilDawg
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Exactly!! In order to really break the cycle people have to get away from their little sub-culture. Acting ghetto or hood people need to stop considering it as the real black or Latino culture.You can carry yourself with dignity and pride without having to act like another race.

I grew up poor, and in a fucked up neighborhood. I know regardless how bad we had it my mom always tried to steer me away from the ghetto behavior. I did get in my fair share of trouble, but I was raised to try to better my situation.When I turned 18, I joined the Marines. After the Marines I got a job afterwards and went to school at night. My kid never experienced having the utilities cut, or having to go to a food bank. She goes to a private school and are equipped with what ever is required for them to do well in academics and sports. We are working towards college through ROTC or scholarships, if she can't get a full scholarship for academics or sports then CC and transfer out.

I taught her the goal for children is to make sure that each generation is supposed to be more successful than the previous. Her grandparents from both side came here to America with limited funds and gave up what the had back at home to create opportunities the next generation. I work hard to provide her everything she needs to excel even if it deprives me of things, so her mission is to succeed and do well in life without compromising her values.
4/23/14 2:03 PM
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TheKidAintMine
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4/23/14 2:06 PM
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HereWeAre
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A white hispanic who went to two ivy leaugue schools. tafuck does she know about racism?  Did someone call her a wetback in 8th grade and make her cry?


Are you saying that there is no racism against hispanics amongst the predominately rich white ivy league colleges?


Yes


What fantasy world do you live in? Or are you trying to insinuate that only poor uneducated people are racist?

4/23/14 2:30 PM
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C0NAN
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DevilDawg - Exactly!! In order to really break the cycle people have to get away from their little sub-culture. Acting ghetto or hood people need to stop considering it as the real black or Latino culture.You can carry yourself with dignity and pride without having to act like another race.

I grew up poor, and in a fucked up neighborhood. I know regardless how bad we had it my mom always tried to steer me away from the ghetto behavior. I did get in my fair share of trouble, but I was raised to try to better my situation.When I turned 18, I joined the Marines. After the Marines I got a job afterwards and went to school at night. My kid never experienced having the utilities cut, or having to go to a food bank. She goes to a private school and are equipped with what ever is required for them to do well in academics and sports. We are working towards college through ROTC or scholarships, if she can't get a full scholarship for academics or sports then CC and transfer out.

I taught her the goal for children is to make sure that each generation is supposed to be more successful than the previous. Her grandparents from both side came here to America with limited funds and gave up what the had back at home to create opportunities the next generation. I work hard to provide her everything she needs to excel even if it deprives me of things, so her mission is to succeed and do well in life without compromising her values.

It's not always easy to get away from the subculture.

You chose the military, and yes that is often an effective vehicle. But many people do not want to risk their lives as part of a military machine that often operates unethically.

I, for one, feel ashamed that my taxes even contributed to the Iraq War. I did have a choice, I could have moved abroad, changed my citizenship, to avoid paying into that war effort. There is always a choice.

I stayed because staying was more convenient. There are no innocents. Everyone is complicit one way or another.

But aside from the military, there are few vehicles for grade school flunkies (who are unprepared for even community college), to just get away if they want to.
4/23/14 2:42 PM
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Isaac Bickerstaff
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Race is a social construct of people parading as scientists and experts looking to justify the poor treatment of groups of people based on surface differences.  The same goes for sexual orientation.  Homosexuality was invented to differentiate people with same sex attractions from "normal" straight people when there are no such neat and sharply demarcated physiological distinctions to be made in human sexuality.  Race and sexual orientation are non-scientific myths created by people looking to justify bad treatment.  Now stupid liberals, who claim to be all about justice, have strangely embraced these make believe divisions between people in the name of helping them while continuing to perpetuate the very things that separate and divide people.  What if we abolished race as any kind of legal category and, if we must give help to people based on some condition, why don't we give help to those who are poor?  After all, affirmative action has primarily helped wealthier "minorities" anyway.  How about we stop with these make believe distinctions among people and you are either a citizen of the US or you are not.  No race, no sexual orientation, and, frankly, no gender.  

I know liberals think they are making up for past injustices, but they are actually perpetuating demarcated differences that only keep racism and sexism and every other ism going. 

4/23/14 2:48 PM
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Wes_Mantooth
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A white hispanic who went to two ivy leaugue schools. tafuck does she know about racism?  Did someone call her a wetback in 8th grade and make her cry?


Are you saying that there is no racism against hispanics amongst the predominately rich white ivy league colleges?


Yes


What fantasy world do you live in? Or are you trying to insinuate that only poor uneducated people are racist?


I live in the real world where Hispanics and Blacks are cherished by rich Ivy League schools. They are cherished so much that they are treated almost like infant children that cannot do anything for themselves and need to recieve handouts based on their skin tone.
4/23/14 2:58 PM
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Trust
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The "break the cycle" notion is noble, but when you look at high school drop out rates by demographic, you can see what an uphill, upcliff that notion is in reality.  Those kids who drop out, regardless of race or socio-economic status, are basically turning down free education; they're certainly not thinking of going to college, let alone getting into a good college.  More than being given priority in admissions, I think some sort of public relations campaign is needed to get young people, especially in low income regions, to value education.  

4/23/14 3:18 PM
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C0NAN
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Isaac Bickerstaff - 

Race is a social construct of people parading as scientists and experts looking to justify the poor treatment of groups of people based on surface differences.  The same goes for sexual orientation.  Homosexuality was invented to differentiate people with same sex attractions from "normal" straight people when there are no such neat and sharply demarcated physiological distinctions to be made in human sexuality.  Race and sexual orientation are non-scientific myths created by people looking to justify bad treatment.  Now stupid liberals, who claim to be all about justice, have strangely embraced these make believe divisions between people in the name of helping them while continuing to perpetuate the very things that separate and divide people.  What if we abolished race as any kind of legal category and, if we must give help to people based on some condition, why don't we give help to those who are poor?  After all, affirmative action has primarily helped wealthier "minorities" anyway.  How about we stop with these make believe distinctions among people and you are either a citizen of the US or you are not.  No race, no sexual orientation, and, frankly, no gender.  

I know liberals think they are making up for past injustices, but they are actually perpetuating demarcated differences that only keep racism and sexism and every other ism going. 


The problem is, race is "real." They may not be delineated with 100% certainty, but they are real.

Most humans are instinctively more willing to help people they are more genetically related to. This is an obvious fact, and makes perfect sense in terms of evolutionary logic. Otherwise, why would people care more about their own children, as opposed to other people's offspring?

As such, racism is also a fact of life. Most social competition is genetic competition. I want the genes of myself and my relatives to do well. I don't want to help genetic foreigners, because they are my competition.

While my sense of fairness is willing to help genetically capable / hard working people born into low income households, I am only interested in such an effort being implemented on the basis of financial/economic status.

I am not interested (quite frankly repulsed) by the idea of sacrificing my own interests, and that of my close genetic relatives, to donate to people of other genetic groups, because those genetic groups are my competitors.

99.99% of the world instinctively thinks this way.
4/23/14 3:42 PM
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amadeus
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Isaac Bickerstaff - I know liberals think they are making up for past injustices, but they are actually perpetuating demarcated differences that only keep racism and sexism and every other ism going.


Actually it just plain out and out racism...

If I tell you that because you are black you are not smart enough and too lazy to accomplish it alone; and that you're not good enough to get by on your own merits, you would rightfully call me a racist. That is exactly what liberal affirmative action policies are built on.

Benevolent racism is still racism...
4/23/14 4:16 PM
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C0NAN
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amadeus - 
Isaac Bickerstaff - I know liberals think they are making up for past injustices, but they are actually perpetuating demarcated differences that only keep racism and sexism and every other ism going.


Actually it just plain out and out racism...

If I tell you that because you are black you are not smart enough and too lazy to accomplish it alone; and that you're not good enough to get by on your own merits, you would rightfully call me a racist. That is exactly what liberal affirmative action policies are built on.

Benevolent racism is still racism...

Well, black children are more likely to be born into low income households where:

1. Their parents don't pressure them to study.

2. Their schools are low quality and lack the security personnel to maintain a safe environment.

For a child to have the discipline and farsightedness to overcome those two factors all by him/herself is extremely difficult. Most children (black, white, Asian, etc.) would turn out to be academic/professional failures if born into the same circumstances.

If the government wants to help, it needs to invest into changing the culture. Affirmative action is not the way to do that.

Most antebellum slaves were forbidden from learning how to read, punishable by death or mutilation. Slaves who were privileged enough to learn how to read were most often "house niggers" (acting white), and were hated by the "field niggers."

This was a strictly enforced anti-education policy that became ingrained in black American culture. Most children (aside from prodigies), depend on their parents to push them off to a good start in life, and many black American children are crippled by the bankrupt culture of the previous generation, which is ultimately the legacy of slavery.

To ask children to have the wisdom to overcome that all by themselves growing up, is no more reasonable than affirmative action. The country needs to find a smarter solution.
4/23/14 4:27 PM
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DevilDawg
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DevilDawg - Exactly!! In order to really break the cycle people have to get away from their little sub-culture. Acting ghetto or hood people need to stop considering it as the real black or Latino culture.You can carry yourself with dignity and pride without having to act like another race.

I grew up poor, and in a fucked up neighborhood. I know regardless how bad we had it my mom always tried to steer me away from the ghetto behavior. I did get in my fair share of trouble, but I was raised to try to better my situation.When I turned 18, I joined the Marines. After the Marines I got a job afterwards and went to school at night. My kid never experienced having the utilities cut, or having to go to a food bank. She goes to a private school and are equipped with what ever is required for them to do well in academics and sports. We are working towards college through ROTC or scholarships, if she can't get a full scholarship for academics or sports then CC and transfer out.

I taught her the goal for children is to make sure that each generation is supposed to be more successful than the previous. Her grandparents from both side came here to America with limited funds and gave up what the had back at home to create opportunities the next generation. I work hard to provide her everything she needs to excel even if it deprives me of things, so her mission is to succeed and do well in life without compromising her values.

It's not always easy to get away from the subculture.

You chose the military, and yes that is often an effective vehicle. But many people do not want to risk their lives as part of a military machine that often operates unethically.

I, for one, feel ashamed that my taxes even contributed to the Iraq War. I did have a choice, I could have moved abroad, changed my citizenship, to avoid paying into that war effort. There is always a choice.

I stayed because staying was more convenient. There are no innocents. Everyone is complicit one way or another.

But aside from the military, there are few vehicles for grade school flunkies (who are unprepared for even community college), to just get away if they want to.

Well the subculture of poverty are poor peoples (black, white, Asian ect) worst enemy. You tell them to stop acting like that, and they'll say you're a racist or snobby if your not the same color as them and your a sell-out if you are the same color. Fix the subculture and the whole country benefits.

If you can't make it into college or even a community college then there are trades. Not everyone was meant to go to college, some trades make more money than degree holders. I for one would switch my corporate management job for taking up plumbing, electrician or long shoring if I could start over at 23. Great money, fresh air (with the exception of plumbing, LOL!), I can act like a guy and it's a job I don't have to dress up.

There's nothing wrong with the trades, it's respectable and honest living.

As far as the military goes there are a ton of jobs that will not put you in any real harms way. The military has cooks, mechanics, plumbers computer technicians and they even have enlisted news anchors, one of my current co-worker was one.
4/23/14 4:41 PM
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C0NAN
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You can disconnect the culture of poverty from blackness, but you will never "fix" the subculture.

There will always be poor people. Even if this country somehow "fixed" black and Hispanic cultural priorities, there will just develop a new underclass of people who are genetically stupider or lazier, because both IQ and work ethic have significant genetic components.

The only difference would be that this new underclass will be more representative of all other races.

Otherwise, the cultural tendencies of the underclass will stay the same, because genetically stupid and lazy people will create fucked up subcultures. That is to be expected.

At the end of the day, it is impossible for society to save every person from him/herself. Everyone has to die one day, we don't have unlimited time and energy for other people's failures.
4/23/14 5:04 PM
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DevilDawg
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C0NAN - You can disconnect the culture of poverty from blackness, but you will never "fix" the subculture.

There will always be poor people. Even if this country somehow "fixed" black and Hispanic cultural priorities, there will just develop a new underclass of people who are genetically stupider or lazier, because both IQ and work ethic have significant genetic components.

The only difference would be that this new underclass will be more representative of all other races.

Otherwise, the cultural tendencies of the underclass will stay the same, because genetically stupid and lazy people will create fucked up subcultures. That is to be expected.

At the end of the day, it is impossible for society to save every person from him/herself. Everyone has to die one day, we don't have unlimited time and energy for other people's failures.

That's all you need to do is to remove the behavior of poverty as an acceptable part of their culture. I don't get how Latinos or poor Asians do the same thing too, the seem to think that it erases their culture.

When you go back to many of their home countries the middle and upper classes don't sag their pants or act ghetto and no one accuses them of being whitewashed or sellouts. Here in the U.S. it seems that poor people seem to think moving on to better things is the same thing as forgetting about your "roots".

Regardless, I was able to pull myself out of poverty, I know a few others who did as well and some did it without going through the military or even college. We can't help people who don't want to help themselves, if you want it enough and you have a couple of brain cells you do better for yourself.
4/23/14 5:10 PM
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steve85uk
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DevilDawg -
C0NAN - You can disconnect the culture of poverty from blackness, but you will never "fix" the subculture.

There will always be poor people. Even if this country somehow "fixed" black and Hispanic cultural priorities, there will just develop a new underclass of people who are genetically stupider or lazier, because both IQ and work ethic have significant genetic components.

The only difference would be that this new underclass will be more representative of all other races.

Otherwise, the cultural tendencies of the underclass will stay the same, because genetically stupid and lazy people will create fucked up subcultures. That is to be expected.

At the end of the day, it is impossible for society to save every person from him/herself. Everyone has to die one day, we don't have unlimited time and energy for other people's failures.

That's all you need to do is to remove the behavior of poverty as an acceptable part of their culture. I don't get how Latinos or poor Asians do the same thing too, the seem to think that it erases their culture.

When you go back to many of their home countries the middle and upper classes don't sag their pants or act ghetto and no one accuses them of being whitewashed or sellouts. Here in the U.S. it seems that poor people seem to think moving on to better things is the same thing as forgetting about your "roots".

Regardless, I was able to pull myself out of poverty, I know a few others who did as well and some did it without going through the military or even college. We can't help people who don't want to help themselves, if you want it enough and you have a couple of brain cells you do better for yourself.
Voted up for having a civil discussion without resorting to idiotic partisan shit Phone Post 3.0
4/23/14 5:28 PM
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C0NAN
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DevilDawg - 
C0NAN - You can disconnect the culture of poverty from blackness, but you will never "fix" the subculture.

There will always be poor people. Even if this country somehow "fixed" black and Hispanic cultural priorities, there will just develop a new underclass of people who are genetically stupider or lazier, because both IQ and work ethic have significant genetic components.

The only difference would be that this new underclass will be more representative of all other races.

Otherwise, the cultural tendencies of the underclass will stay the same, because genetically stupid and lazy people will create fucked up subcultures. That is to be expected.

At the end of the day, it is impossible for society to save every person from him/herself. Everyone has to die one day, we don't have unlimited time and energy for other people's failures.

That's all you need to do is to remove the behavior of poverty as an acceptable part of their culture. I don't get how Latinos or poor Asians do the same thing too, the seem to think that it erases their culture.

When you go back to many of their home countries the middle and upper classes don't sag their pants or act ghetto and no one accuses them of being whitewashed or sellouts. Here in the U.S. it seems that poor people seem to think moving on to better things is the same thing as forgetting about your "roots".

Regardless, I was able to pull myself out of poverty, I know a few others who did as well and some did it without going through the military or even college. We can't help people who don't want to help themselves, if you want it enough and you have a couple of brain cells you do better for yourself.

Re: behavior of poverty / sagging pants / acting ghetto

I think stuff like sagging pants and Ebonics is superficial.

The real cultural issue is that black American culture prioritizes athletics, dance, and music, over the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) subjects. However, there is much less opportunity to make a living in those performance disciplines prioritized by black American culture. The failed athlete, dancer, and hip hop artist is the common stereotype.

Also, black Africa was less intellectual / technological than the rest of the world when the era of colonization started. It still is today.

What kind of propaganda could cause black American culture to re-prioritize STEM studies over sports/dance/music?

It's not so easy. It's not just an issue with black America, the United States in general has been devaluing STEM since the Cold War ended.

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