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7/20/14 9:09 PM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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KneeUpperCut Ios - 
ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun - lol Knee is one racist dude, ghetto trash deserved to die for selling cigs lolol. He must be from the woods of Mississippi

You must've missed my post defending the black police officer versus the white lieutenant.

I guess I'm racist against whites as well in your eyes.

You can be racist and still side with a black person every once in a while. I had no problem with that incident either, the guy in the car would be seen as more of a threat by getting out of his car, it was one takedown and he was alone. Nobody was overly roughed up.

In this case, because he didn't put his hand behind his back within 2 seconds of being asked, he was brutally attacked by a mob. I think it could have escalated a little slower
7/20/14 9:09 PM
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Nitecrawler
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possum jitsu -
CavemanDave - This might be knit-picky, but a choke hold restricts oxygen. If there was no damage to the wind pipe, it would be difficult to call what he did a choke hold. Phone Post 3.0
It was definitely a choke hold although it most likely had nothing to do with his death other than being part of the situation in general. Could've been a full nelson and would've ended in the same result I think. It was the dude getting worked up about what was going on that killed him it appears. Although some guys are saying a choke is illegal in nypd which I don't know about. It looked like a shitty rnc to me and wouldn't kill someone, not even a big guy like that, not on accident at least and that cop wasn't trying to kill him. Seems like a bad situation handled poorly by all parties. Phone Post 3.0
This is a very fair assessment of what transpired.

VTFU. Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 9:24 PM
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Sofa King Cool
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Jessy Ringquist -
Sofa King Cool - "Turn around, you're under arrest!"

"No! Don't fucking touch me."

"Alright sir, sorry to bother you. Have a good day."

? Phone Post 3.0
You are beginning with the premise that cops have the right to arrest you whenever they feel like it. This is incorrect.

Are you aware that citizens have the right to resist illegal imprisonment?

Apparently not.

Yet another lost step for the citizenry as we match toward a police state. Phone Post 3.0
You don't have to be such a douche, bro.

"Are you aware that you may resist unlawful arrest!? Obviously not! You know nothing! Police state! Police state!"

I bet you're a lot of fun to hang out with.

Of course you can resist an unlawful arrest. You can resist a lawful arrest, too. What's your point? You can be convicted of resisting arrest (pause for dramatic effect) even if it's an unlawful arrest! What? I know you're shocked, right? I guess Reverend Al left that part out when you were marching at his rally.

But, fortunately, that's neither here nor there, because the guy was breaking the law, therefore the police had the right to approach him and arrest him. What happens after that is tragic and controversial. But for you to even attempt to justify the suspect's resistance in this situation shows that you have chosen a side, you refuse to accept any different viewpoint, and that you are a moron.

Here's a tip, if you ever want to establish any credibility in an argument, difference of opinion, or whatever, you shouldn't dig in your heels, pout your lips, and refuse to see things any other way. You come across like a petulant child.

"Police state!" LOL! Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 9:59 PM
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KneeUpperCut Ios
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun - 
KneeUpperCut Ios - 
ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun - lol Knee is one racist dude, ghetto trash deserved to die for selling cigs lolol. He must be from the woods of Mississippi

You must've missed my post defending the black police officer versus the white lieutenant.

I guess I'm racist against whites as well in your eyes.

You can be racist and still side with a black person every once in a while. I had no problem with that incident either, the guy in the car would be seen as more of a threat by getting out of his car, it was one takedown and he was alone. Nobody was overly roughed up.

In this case, because he didn't put his hand behind his back within 2 seconds of being asked, he was brutally attacked by a mob. I think it could have escalated a little slower

But since you only have two instances of me commenting on a scenario - one in which I support black over white and in the other which I support the white over black - what leads to to think that I'm racist and only side with black people "every once in a while". Your nonsensical dribble isn't limited to neuroscience and physics I see lol.

I often find myself siding with the police officers regardless if they're black or white and regardless if the suspect is black or white - simply because I often find police to be acting in a way that I myself deem acceptable, whereas the suspects are generally disrespectful or plain stupid.
7/20/14 10:01 PM
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KneeUpperCut Ios
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Jessy Ringquist -
Sofa King Cool - "Turn around, you're under arrest!"

"No! Don't fucking touch me."

"Alright sir, sorry to bother you. Have a good day."

? Phone Post 3.0
You are beginning with the premise that cops have the right to arrest you whenever they feel like it. This is incorrect.

Are you aware that citizens have the right to resist illegal imprisonment?

Apparently not.

Yet another lost step for the citizenry as we match toward a police state. Phone Post 3.0
You don't have to be such a douche, bro.

"Are you aware that you may resist unlawful arrest!? Obviously not! You know nothing! Police state! Police state!"

I bet you're a lot of fun to hang out with.

Of course you can resist an unlawful arrest. You can resist a lawful arrest, too. What's your point? You can be convicted of resisting arrest (pause for dramatic effect) even if it's an unlawful arrest! What? I know you're shocked, right? I guess Reverend Al left that part out when you were marching at his rally.

But, fortunately, that's neither here nor there, because the guy was breaking the law, therefore the police had the right to approach him and arrest him. What happens after that is tragic and controversial. But for you to even attempt to justify the suspect's resistance in this situation shows that you have chosen a side, you refuse to accept any different viewpoint, and that you are a moron.

Here's a tip, if you ever want to establish any credibility in an argument, difference of opinion, or whatever, you shouldn't dig in your heels, pout your lips, and refuse to see things any other way. You come across like a petulant child.

"Police state!" LOL! Phone Post 3.0

lol... VU for content AND writing style. Gave me a chuckle.
7/20/14 10:13 PM
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RubberFistofFury
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Sofa King Cool -
Jessy Ringquist -
Sofa King Cool - "Turn around, you're under arrest!"

"No! Don't fucking touch me."

"Alright sir, sorry to bother you. Have a good day."

? Phone Post 3.0
You are beginning with the premise that cops have the right to arrest you whenever they feel like it. This is incorrect.

Are you aware that citizens have the right to resist illegal imprisonment?

Apparently not.

Yet another lost step for the citizenry as we match toward a police state. Phone Post 3.0
You don't have to be such a douche, bro.

"Are you aware that you may resist unlawful arrest!? Obviously not! You know nothing! Police state! Police state!"

I bet you're a lot of fun to hang out with.

Of course you can resist an unlawful arrest. You can resist a lawful arrest, too. What's your point? You can be convicted of resisting arrest (pause for dramatic effect) even if it's an unlawful arrest! What? I know you're shocked, right? I guess Reverend Al left that part out when you were marching at his rally.

But, fortunately, that's neither here nor there, because the guy was breaking the law, therefore the police had the right to approach him and arrest him. What happens after that is tragic and controversial. But for you to even attempt to justify the suspect's resistance in this situation shows that you have chosen a side, you refuse to accept any different viewpoint, and that you are a moron.

Here's a tip, if you ever want to establish any credibility in an argument, difference of opinion, or whatever, you shouldn't dig in your heels, pout your lips, and refuse to see things any other way. You come across like a petulant child.

"Police state!" LOL! Phone Post 3.0
Vu Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 11:04 PM
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possum jitsu
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possum jitsu - Selling loosies to raping and murdering babies? I wonder why you keep taking shots at people's careers, intelligence, and what others think of them. Are you feeling inadequate bro? Lots of guys are willing to help on the og, it's a cool place. Just ask for help. We're here for you. Phone Post 3.0

Do you have regard for the lives of people who rape and then murder babies? If you do - then you, yourself, are a sick and twisted person.

If you don't - then I guess that means that you've drawn a rather arbitrary line somewhere - a point at which you no longer have regard for a life. If that's the case than your REAL issue with my position is that my line is drawn elsewhere...

Seems pretty arrogant of you to think that your subjective notion of where a life becomes worthless is somehow more accurate than mine.
I think I can safely draw a line between killing babies and selling cigarettes without a license. I'm comfortable with that. You aren't going to bait me into argument man. You have anger issues and you are terrible at debate. I just want you to know that I think you are a horrible person is all. Phone Post 3.0
7/20/14 11:32 PM
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BLPorritt
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Team GDP's cancerous testicle - How many times prior was the guy arrested?
It's your fault. You killed him. You cancerous testicle, you Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 12:01 AM
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KneeUpperCut Ios
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possum jitsu -
KneeUpperCut Ios -
possum jitsu - Selling loosies to raping and murdering babies? I wonder why you keep taking shots at people's careers, intelligence, and what others think of them. Are you feeling inadequate bro? Lots of guys are willing to help on the og, it's a cool place. Just ask for help. We're here for you. Phone Post 3.0

Do you have regard for the lives of people who rape and then murder babies? If you do - then you, yourself, are a sick and twisted person.

If you don't - then I guess that means that you've drawn a rather arbitrary line somewhere - a point at which you no longer have regard for a life. If that's the case than your REAL issue with my position is that my line is drawn elsewhere...

Seems pretty arrogant of you to think that your subjective notion of where a life becomes worthless is somehow more accurate than mine.
I think I can safely draw a line between killing babies and selling cigarettes without a license. I'm comfortable with that. You aren't going to bait me into argument man. You have anger issues and you are terrible at debate. I just want you to know that I think you are a horrible person is all. Phone Post 3.0
...And I have no problem drawing a line between pieces of shit that get arrested over 30x and hard working, honest, people who try to do the right thing. Maybe you do?

Also - Your ad-hominem attacks show just how great YOU are at debating lol Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 12:29 AM
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possum jitsu
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possum jitsu -
KneeUpperCut Ios -
possum jitsu - Selling loosies to raping and murdering babies? I wonder why you keep taking shots at people's careers, intelligence, and what others think of them. Are you feeling inadequate bro? Lots of guys are willing to help on the og, it's a cool place. Just ask for help. We're here for you. Phone Post 3.0

Do you have regard for the lives of people who rape and then murder babies? If you do - then you, yourself, are a sick and twisted person.

If you don't - then I guess that means that you've drawn a rather arbitrary line somewhere - a point at which you no longer have regard for a life. If that's the case than your REAL issue with my position is that my line is drawn elsewhere...

Seems pretty arrogant of you to think that your subjective notion of where a life becomes worthless is somehow more accurate than mine.
I think I can safely draw a line between killing babies and selling cigarettes without a license. I'm comfortable with that. You aren't going to bait me into argument man. You have anger issues and you are terrible at debate. I just want you to know that I think you are a horrible person is all. Phone Post 3.0
...And I have no problem drawing a line between pieces of shit that get arrested over 30x and hard working, honest, people who try to do the right thing. Maybe you do?

Also - Your ad-hominem attacks show just how great YOU are at debating lol Phone Post 3.0
You do this a lot I assume. You're using that wrong though smarty pants. I'm sure it happens a lot to you but people attack you because you are acting completely ridiculous. No desire to have an argument with you about who is at fault in this situation because your opinion is disgusting. Sorry dude. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 12:40 AM
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LFTM
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Some people in this thread need to calm the fuck down. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 1:13 AM
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KneeUpperCut Ios
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possum jitsu -
KneeUpperCut Ios -
possum jitsu -
KneeUpperCut Ios -
possum jitsu - Selling loosies to raping and murdering babies? I wonder why you keep taking shots at people's careers, intelligence, and what others think of them. Are you feeling inadequate bro? Lots of guys are willing to help on the og, it's a cool place. Just ask for help. We're here for you. Phone Post 3.0

Do you have regard for the lives of people who rape and then murder babies? If you do - then you, yourself, are a sick and twisted person.

If you don't - then I guess that means that you've drawn a rather arbitrary line somewhere - a point at which you no longer have regard for a life. If that's the case than your REAL issue with my position is that my line is drawn elsewhere...

Seems pretty arrogant of you to think that your subjective notion of where a life becomes worthless is somehow more accurate than mine.
I think I can safely draw a line between killing babies and selling cigarettes without a license. I'm comfortable with that. You aren't going to bait me into argument man. You have anger issues and you are terrible at debate. I just want you to know that I think you are a horrible person is all. Phone Post 3.0
...And I have no problem drawing a line between pieces of shit that get arrested over 30x and hard working, honest, people who try to do the right thing. Maybe you do?

Also - Your ad-hominem attacks show just how great YOU are at debating lol Phone Post 3.0
You do this a lot I assume. You're using that wrong though smarty pants. I'm sure it happens a lot to you but people attack you because you are acting completely ridiculous. No desire to have an argument with you about who is at fault in this situation because your opinion is disgusting. Sorry dude. Phone Post 3.0
You've already engaged me in an argument - saying you won't doesn't change the fact that you already have.

The argument has so far consisted of me providing reasoning for holding positions I do and you ignoring that and simply regurgitating the shallow and unfounded belief that your position is more virtuous then mine.

You're a person who confuses the strength of his convictions with the strength of his position. I bet that problem affects you more than you'll ever know lol Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 1:26 AM
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LakerUp
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I think a few key points should be clarified;

1.  He was not passively resisting.  He was actively resisting.   This is an important distinction because it dictates what level of force police officers will/can use to gain compliance, per Graham vs. Connor.  He was pulling away, locking his arms, and doing whatever else he could to prevent arrest.  Passive resistance does not involve physically resisting arrest in any manner.

2.  Against departmental policy versus "illegal"-these are huge distinctions.  The carotid choke is not "illegal."  It's prohibited by his department.  Which means under Graham vs. Connor, it's not at all clear the choke was excessive.  He obviously should not have done it for several reasons-it was against policy, ineffective, he obviously lacked training, and it was tactically unsound.  But he did not break the law-check out Graham vs. Connor if you're interested.

3.  For those of you who are advocates of capitalism and private business, how do you justify your support of a person illegally undercutting legal business owners?  Whether it be cigarettes, flowers, fruit, toys, or whatever else-who protects the rights of business' that follow the rules?  You betcha, the criminal justice system does.  Our justice system has a responsibility to protect business owners who pay taxes.  You guys who claim his actions were harmless are missing/ignoring reality-untaxed cigarettes harm private business.  And it sounds like it's a huge problem in NYC right now.

4.  Officers get tunnel vision, like almost anyone would in a stressful situation.  Positional asphyxia and mechanical compression in combination with high stress and many times drug intoxication, lead to too many in custody deaths.  Officers feel like they have to get the cuffs on RIGHT NOW, instead of taking a step back and assessing their options (flex cuffs, less lethal rounds, TASER, dog, etc).  It's easy to forget that time is on the LEO's side in a situation like this.

Piling on top of someone is almost never a good idea.  However, many of you have no idea how hard it is to cuff someone who is resisting, let alone a giant fat man who is resisting.  They sometimes need two or even three sets of cuffs.  Those dog piles have far more to do with poor tactics and getting cuffs on than roughing someone up. 

5. It's a tragedy this man died.  But it was not excessive force.  It was poor tactics in conjunction with him being grossly overweight.  In the end, he's the only person who used excessive force-he illegally resisted arrest/detention. 

I don't honestly know how to equitably adjudicate this sad incident.

7/21/14 8:47 AM
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Kneeblock
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The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 9:26 AM
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angryinch
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"4.  Officers get tunnel vision, like almost anyone would in a stressful situation.  Positional asphyxia and mechanical compression in combination with high stress and many times drug intoxication, lead to too many in custody deaths.  Officers feel like they have to get the cuffs on RIGHT NOW, instead of taking a step back and assessing their options (flex cuffs, less lethal rounds, TASER, dog, etc).  It's easy to forget that time is on the LEO's side in a situation like this."

No, the problem is they can't stand to have their egos bruised.  

"Piling on top of someone is almost never a good idea.  However, many of you have no idea how hard it is to cuff someone who is resisting, let alone a giant fat man who is resisting.  They sometimes need two or even three sets of cuffs.  Those dog piles have far more to do with poor tactics and getting cuffs on than roughing someone up. "

So why do they need to cuff him "right now"?  Why not step back and take another approach?  Again, ego and authoritah.  Not to mention many cops, like this guy, thrive on physical violence and will often create a reason to escalate a situation to the point of using force, in some cases deadly force, where it was not really necessary. 

"5. It's a tragedy this man died.  But it was not excessive force. "

So in your own personal Narnia, killing a guy over a couple of cigarettes is not excessive?  Never mind.  We all know the answer to that.  Carry on.  

7/21/14 10:31 AM
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LakerUp
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Kneeblock - The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
I wasn't justifying their actions, just trying to be helpful with some insight. A man died who should not have-there is no justifying that. Phone Post 3.0
7/21/14 10:53 AM
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KneeUpperCut Ios
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LakerUp - 
Kneeblock - The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
I wasn't justifying their actions, just trying to be helpful with some insight. A man died who should not have-there is no justifying that. Phone Post 3.0

I disagree - He did it to himself.

None of those officers were involved in shoving cheeseburgers down his throat for the last 15 years.
7/21/14 11:03 AM
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Ebin214
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KneeUpperCut Ios - 
LakerUp - 
Kneeblock - The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
I wasn't justifying their actions, just trying to be helpful with some insight. A man died who should not have-there is no justifying that. Phone Post 3.0

I disagree - He did it to himself.

None of those officers were involved in shoving cheeseburgers down his throat for the last 15 years.

"I disagree - he did it to himself."

Yes, this man killed himself in the same way soldiers kill themselves.
7/21/14 11:16 AM
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LakerUp
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LakerUp - 
Kneeblock - The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
I wasn't justifying their actions, just trying to be helpful with some insight. A man died who should not have-there is no justifying that. Phone Post 3.0

I disagree - He did it to himself.

None of those officers were involved in shoving cheeseburgers down his throat for the last 15 years.

I'm not saying he does not bear primary responsibility for his own demise, but I'm also not denying that this incident should have been handled differently by police.  Had they used sound tactics, would he still be alive?  Who knows-he may have been a ticking time bomb-any bit of physical escalation and stress could have been his death knell.  TASER, less lethal rounds, dog, or whatever.  And then of course, the same people who are outraged now would be claiming exactly the same things. 

Either way, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge poor tactics and the fact this man should still be alive.  By sayiing there is no justifying that, I am simply honoring the fact that this is a tragedy-a man died.  He should stil be alive.

7/21/14 12:00 PM
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KneeUpperCut Ios
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Ebin214 - 
KneeUpperCut Ios - 
LakerUp - 
Kneeblock - The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
I wasn't justifying their actions, just trying to be helpful with some insight. A man died who should not have-there is no justifying that. Phone Post 3.0

I disagree - He did it to himself.

None of those officers were involved in shoving cheeseburgers down his throat for the last 15 years.

"I disagree - he did it to himself."

Yes, this man killed himself in the same way soldiers kill themselves.

From heart-attacks?
7/21/14 12:02 PM
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Garv
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The guy's family should sue Phillip Morris.

7/21/14 12:04 PM
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KneeUpperCut Ios
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LakerUp - 
KneeUpperCut Ios - 
LakerUp - 
Kneeblock - The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
I wasn't justifying their actions, just trying to be helpful with some insight. A man died who should not have-there is no justifying that. Phone Post 3.0

I disagree - He did it to himself.

None of those officers were involved in shoving cheeseburgers down his throat for the last 15 years.

I'm not saying he does not bear primary responsibility for his own demise, but I'm also not denying that this incident should have been handled differently by police.  Had they used sound tactics, would he still be alive?  Who knows-he may have been a ticking time bomb-any bit of physical escalation and stress could have been his death knell.  TASER, less lethal rounds, dog, or whatever.  And then of course, the same people who are outraged now would be claiming exactly the same things. 

Either way, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge poor tactics and the fact this man should still be alive.  By sayiing there is no justifying that, I am simply honoring the fact that this is a tragedy-a man died.  He should stil be alive.


I understand - I personally find it hard to see serial law-breakers dying as a tragedy.
7/21/14 12:18 PM
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Ebin214
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KneeUpperCut Ios - 
Ebin214 - 
KneeUpperCut Ios - 
LakerUp - 
Kneeblock - The above post is likely the type of reasonable explanation given to justify the actions of the National Socialists in the latter days of Weimar Germany.

Something can be by the book and still be wrong. When a nonviolent offender resists, you have a choice: increase the pressure of your boot heel or deal with them another day. Killing them is always a third option, but is a result of over enthusiasm for violence more than upholding the law. Phone Post 3.0
I wasn't justifying their actions, just trying to be helpful with some insight. A man died who should not have-there is no justifying that. Phone Post 3.0

I disagree - He did it to himself.

None of those officers were involved in shoving cheeseburgers down his throat for the last 15 years.

"I disagree - he did it to himself."

Yes, this man killed himself in the same way soldiers kill themselves.

From heart-attacks?

Don't be daft.
7/21/14 12:25 PM
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e. kaye
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Sharpton is on the case and says there is a video of the chokehold.

7/21/14 12:27 PM
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Garv
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The Opposite of Bonnie and Clyde, Author
e. kaye - 

Sharpton is on the case and says there is a video of the chokehold.


I read this too. Apparently the video is safely hidden in Tawana Brawley's dumpster.


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