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BJJGround Forum >> White knighting on the atama forum


7/31/14 6:21 PM
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dokomoy
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os3y3ris - 
I read JJ machados affiliation agreement in its entirety. There's nothing in there referring to anything relevant to your argument.

It's a voluntary agreement between two parties about banners to fly. There's nothing I'm there about paying for promotions


Check this out:

Athletes affiliation and academy registration deadline
All Juvenile, brown and black belt athletes [b]must[/b] be properly affiliated for the current year. All tournaments taking place in Brazil require all participating athlete's to be properly affiliated for the current year.



To hold brown and black you have to be properly affiliated. Those are the rules. That is what affiliation entails.

The IBJJF requires you to be properly affiliated not Jean Jacques, I don't know why it's mentioned in his affiliation agreement but those are the IBJJF's rules and not his(and for what it's worth JJ isn't a fan of the IBJJF at all).

When I got my purple from Jean Jacques I wasn't required to pay a dime outside my regular tuition and while I don't train with him anymore I don't know ANYONE(including guys from the local affiliates) who had to pay him anything for any promotion they received.

But just like usual your throwing a bunch of shit at the wall and hoping it sticks all the while conflating various people and organizations to try and prove some stupid point. And frankly it's getting pretty tiresome.
7/31/14 6:27 PM
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checkuroil
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Btt is not rated to barra. Carlos cant strip him of his visa. Phone Post 3.0
7/31/14 6:30 PM
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Wutang
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Trained with JJ Machado from purple to black - I've never paid for any belt I recieved from him. You shouldn't try and drag his name into your mess.

7/31/14 6:33 PM
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Meatgrinder
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The fact that you and toby are not recognized BBs, means the system is working.

7/31/14 6:39 PM
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os3y3ris
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Btt is not rated to barra. Carlos cant strip him of his visa.


Yes he can. He took control of BTT with the IBJJF, which he heads. He's the one that does ALL of the ranks.

Trained with JJ Machado from purple to black - I've never paid for any belt I recieved from him. You shouldn't try and drag his name into your mess.


I didn't write that contract. That's HIS contract.
7/31/14 6:44 PM
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ECM
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If a new student walks in and asks where you got your black belt do you admit you promoted yourself and are really still a brown belt or lie to them? That's the only issue I'd have with it all

Fwiw a friend of mine has been a brown belt for the better part of a decade and still runs a successful school. Nobody seems to have an issue with him being a brown belt and he's never felt the need to stroke his ego and promote himself Phone Post 3.0
7/31/14 6:46 PM
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os3y3ris
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The fact that you and toby are not recognized BBs, means the system is working.


Yeah, we want everyone that doesn't pay the bribe money OUT.
7/31/14 6:47 PM
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os3y3ris
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I tell them Souza promoted me, which is the case. Thats what he told me, and if he denies it now, whatever.
7/31/14 6:49 PM
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checkuroil
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There's a million guys named Souza. What's his full name. Phone Post 3.0
7/31/14 6:56 PM
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os3y3ris
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Vinny Souza.
7/31/14 7:14 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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Isn't Vinny Souza an IBJJF-recognized BB? What's the difficulty in getting a picture of Vinny handing you your black belt?

I understand if you can't compete at BB at IBJJF events, but the promotion should be easy to document...what am I missing?
7/31/14 7:16 PM
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os3y3ris
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Edited: 07/31/14 7:17 PM
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Because between him promoting and the actual ceremony, there were about half a dozen pages of paperwork. When he went to get that resolved, they demanded 2k. That's what the issue is. Carlos Gracie Jr demands affiliation before you can hold a rank, which comes to about two grand. I didn't pay the 2k. If I pay them, I'm legit, if don't pay, I'm a fraud. If Vinny completes the ceremony, he gets deported. That's the scenario and that's fucked up.
7/31/14 7:20 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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That sounds retarded, and about par for IBJJF. :)

Is there anyone else who vouches for your version of events?
7/31/14 7:21 PM
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checkuroil
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Btt is already affiliated. Phone Post 3.0
7/31/14 7:36 PM
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ECM
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So essentially you lie by telling a story you can't substantiate. Everything else you say about the affiliation fees, deportation etc sounds like bullshit you've invented to cover your tracks. The burden of proof is on you to provide even a shred of evidence that anyone promoted you. What you have presented previously is worthless window dressing Phone Post 3.0
7/31/14 7:39 PM
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os3y3ris
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Is there anyone else who vouches for your version of events?


Yes. I have it all documented in messages from Souza, stating that BTT and Carlos Gracie Jr were looking for a lot of money, that corruption like this is common place in Brazil and that this was all "Just money!"

Second, there were multiple people present at the meeting in question. Yes, there are people that will vouch for it.
7/31/14 7:41 PM
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os3y3ris
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What you have presented previously is worthless window dressing


Incorrect. Your being obtuse does not actually invalidate evidence. You have to come up with other evidence that casts that into doubt. You can't just sit there and go "Uh-uh" and then prove that I'm lying. I have Souza stating directly that BTT and Carlos Gracie Jr were behind the money. Why is that not proof again?
7/31/14 7:44 PM
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Meatgrinder
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os3y3ris - Because between him promoting and the actual ceremony, there were about half a dozen pages of paperwork. When he went to get that resolved, they demanded 2k. That's what the issue is. Carlos Gracie Jr demands affiliation before you can hold a rank, which comes to about two grand. I didn't pay the 2k. If I pay them, I'm legit, if don't pay, I'm a fraud. If Vinny completes the ceremony, he gets deported. That's the scenario and that's fucked up.

This one statement right here is filled with so many inaccuracies....

- It's not carlos Jr.... it's the ibjjf

- the ibjjf does not do affiliation and they do not determine if you have rank or not. They require documentary proof of your rank and if you are a school owner there are add'l fees which allow your students to compete at and they will be recognized by the ibjjf at that rank. You don't even need to register with the ibjjf for any official rank if you and the students in your school don't intend to compete in ibjjf tournaments. 

-You just left, but it has been mentioned before that Vinny was NOT a 2nd degree BB and had not authority or right to promote you to BB. 

-You couldn't have even paid and registered with the ibjjf unless you or Vinny fudged some documentation because he would need to be a 2nd degree BB

 

Bottom line is that you shopped around for school affiliations where there was someone who could promote you, only to find out that most affiliations have fees...No sh!t... It's a business proposition and it's not supposed to be just for rank... There's training, seminars, etc that are part of that as you will be representing their name in tournaments.

 

 

 

7/31/14 7:47 PM
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os3y3ris
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Incorrect. You're stating what you think to be the case. This does not mean you are correct. Yes, the IBJJF controls rank. Here is them selling belts, degrees and visa status:

http://www.jiujitsuforums.com/discussion/29307/ibjjf-black-belt-certification-my-story-what-do-you-think/p1

I made that up?
7/31/14 7:50 PM
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ECM
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Meatgrinder -
os3y3ris - Because between him promoting and the actual ceremony, there were about half a dozen pages of paperwork. When he went to get that resolved, they demanded 2k. That's what the issue is. Carlos Gracie Jr demands affiliation before you can hold a rank, which comes to about two grand. I didn't pay the 2k. If I pay them, I'm legit, if don't pay, I'm a fraud. If Vinny completes the ceremony, he gets deported. That's the scenario and that's fucked up.

This one statement right here is filled with so many inaccuracies....

- It's not carlos Jr.... it's the ibjjf

- the ibjjf does not do affiliation and they do not determine if you have rank or not. They require documentary proof of your rank and if you are a school owner there are add'l fees which allow your students to compete at and they will be recognized by the ibjjf at that rank. You don't even need to register with the ibjjf for any official rank if you and the students in your school don't intend to compete in ibjjf tournaments. 

-You just left, but it has been mentioned before that Vinny was NOT a 2nd degree BB and had not authority or right to promote you to BB. 

-You couldn't have even paid and registered with the ibjjf unless you or Vinny fudged some documentation because he would need to be a 2nd degree BB

 

Bottom line is that you shopped around for school affiliations where there was someone who could promote you, only to find out that most affiliations have fees...No sh!t... It's a business proposition and it's not supposed to be just for rank... There's training, seminars, etc that are part of that as you will be representing their name in tournaments.

 

 

 

Exactly. Everything I've read that he's presented as evidence has been fairly circumstantial so he's created a lie which he's probably repeated so many time now even he probably believes it Phone Post 3.0
7/31/14 7:57 PM
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os3y3ris
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I have the guy stating directly that he did indeed do this, with BTT and Carlos Gracie Jr. There's nothing circumstantial about that.
7/31/14 8:04 PM
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UGCTT_Fillthy
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os3y3ris - 
Is there anyone else who vouches for your version of events?


Yes. I have it all documented in messages from Souza, stating that BTT and Carlos Gracie Jr were looking for a lot of money, that corruption like this is common place in Brazil and that this was all "Just money!"

Second, there were multiple people present at the meeting in question. Yes, there are people that will vouch for it.

How hard is it to go to a legit and unaffiliated black belt and have them evaluate you? It seems like that would be preferable to all the grief you get for 'self-promoting'.

It seems like you could have Vinny explain the situation, and why he can't officially promote you, to any number of non-IBJJF black belts and get your BB through them. Or go to an unaffiliated school as a brown belt, enter some NAGA/GQ/FIVE tourneys and smash some browns, and get a 'legit' black belt.

Obviously I don't know all the nuances of your situation, I'm just trying to understand what other options are available, and why they're less agreeable than the route you've taken.
7/31/14 8:07 PM
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ECM
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UGCTT_Fillthy -
os3y3ris - 
Is there anyone else who vouches for your version of events?


Yes. I have it all documented in messages from Souza, stating that BTT and Carlos Gracie Jr were looking for a lot of money, that corruption like this is common place in Brazil and that this was all "Just money!"

Second, there were multiple people present at the meeting in question. Yes, there are people that will vouch for it.

How hard is it to go to a legit and unaffiliated black belt and have them evaluate you? It seems like that would be preferable to all the grief you get for 'self-promoting'.

It seems like you could have Vinny explain the situation, and why he can't officially promote you, to any number of non-IBJJF black belts and get your BB through them. Or go to an unaffiliated school as a brown belt, enter some NAGA/GQ/FIVE tourneys and smash some browns, and get a 'legit' black belt.

Obviously I don't know all the nuances of your situation, I'm just trying to understand what other options are available, and why they're less agreeable than the route you've taken.
As near as we can all tell it's a mix of pride, ego and stubbornness preventing him using logic to solve a fairly simple problem Phone Post 3.0
7/31/14 8:17 PM
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dokomoy
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IBJJF controls the ranking process for people who want to be part of the IBJJF in some way, that' s not the same as controlling rank. There are tons of guys who's rank isn't certified with the IBJJF and no one gives them grief over it.
7/31/14 8:27 PM
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creekwarrior2
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The IBJJF is a "sanctioning body" they do not offer affiliates. If Carlos wanted you to be an Affiliate then that would have been with Grace Barra. Not The IBJJF. Carlos controls both as separate entities. BTT is not affiliated or a part of Grace Barra Or IBJJF. They might be a member of IBJJF to complete at IBJJF tournaments. Now there might be a school membership fee for new BB who would like to join the IBJJF and have there rank recognized to hold rank and compete in their events.

Now, if you got your black belt from Jean Jaques or Rickson, I which neither are members of IBJJF I don't think anyone would question your BB. And I do mean No one. Why because they are legitimate. They don't need IBJJF. Phone Post 3.0

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