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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Help please- Are MMA cops better?


11/16/03 12:30 PM
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SIUMAC
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Edited: 16-Nov-03 12:22 PM
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Realistic Martial Arts Training Asn
 
Mr Blauer, if you have time I would greatly appreciate any input you might have about what I'm talking about below. I posted this in the regular UG forum, but I thought I'd also ask you specifically since your one of the worlds leading authorities on training police. Thanks you very much Sir. Vincent Fields Hey folks, I'm currently a master’s student at Southern Illinois University and I'm writing my thesis right now. I’m hoping it will be done next May, and then I’m going to move on into the policing world. I’d greatly appreciate the input of anyone here; especially cops, prison guards, or anyone in similar professions that have to regularly apprehend people. My research question is "Do police officers who regularly train in MMA both cause and receive fewer injuries than police officers that do not?" As you will see below, I’m having trouble finding existing data about this. I define "regular training" as at least 4 hours a month. I define "MMA" as whatever type of training that the officers do that has them practicing their techniques against training partners who are actually resisting 100% as they actually grapple and fight in the training. It doesn’t matter what martial art they do; whether it be PPCT (pressure point control tactics), BJJ, Sambo, Judo, Submission Grappling, NHB, etc, as long as they do it with this sort of realistic aliveness training. My hypothesis is that officers who do this kind of training will be used to physically apprehending people and will simply be better at it. The police mindset is to outnumber suspects and use brute force to handcuff them, but when it's 1 on 1 the officer better know how to fight well without weapons and how to apprehend suspects without causing serious injuries. For my thesis I'm not looking at the use of any type of weapon (pepper spray included), but only situations in which the fight is on and officers have to physically subdue the suspect. Unfortunately police departments do not require their officers to participate in regular training of this type. They receive a few hours of it in the academy; but as anyone who does realistic training knows, it takes consistent hard work to be able to do it for real. I feel that Police officials fear the repercussions of having their officers do this type of training out of ignorance. They fear that their officers will hurt people with what they learn, resulting in lawsuits. I feel that this type of training would cause a decrease in lawsuits since officers would better understand how to apprehend/ handcuff suspects without causing injury or relying on weapons so much. Anyway, I'm having problems finding existing data for my thesis. It seems nobody has ever done this kind of research; or at least it's not published. I’ve searched many hours through criminal justice archives and statistics and thus far have not found the existing data that I need. I would like to be able to show police organizations some sort of official statistic that proves that officers NEED this sort of regular, realistic training since they are putting their hands on people on a regular basis anyway. If this goes as planned I would publish this thesis and send it to as many police departments as I possibly could. This could lead to a great increase in the number of officers who are regularly training in MMA. However the bulk of this thesis is still in front of me and right now I’m just sharing my ideas. I’m open to any thoughts, suggestions, questions, critiques, etc from anyone here. I’m discussing this here because I know that those who train MMA can envision what I’m talking about. You know that officers would be better off with this type of training… I just have to find the proof. Thanks in advance for any input! Vincent Fields Southern Illinois University Martial Arts Club- Carbondale IL WWW.GO.TO/SIUMAC No egos, attitudes, or politics
11/18/03 8:48 AM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 18-Nov-03
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Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
"Do police officers who regularly train in MMA both cause and receive fewer injuries than police officers that do not?" The 'cause & receive' aspect will be hard to quantify. I know LAPD did a study on confrontations and how most went to the ground and this supported their push to grappling. Whether the questions or scenarios studied incorporated your query I dont know. I do know a lot of officers and I can tell you this that the ability to handle a confrontation starts with Tactical Presence and that a well trained officer will develop that through osmosis just by making arrests. In reality, most cops learn to fight by adapting to to their scenarios. I also know a lot of officers who participate in on-going training and I can tell you from all the teaching I do that these officers are better equipped to handle confrontations, they have better cardio, focus and mental toughness. However, it cant be any martial system, it must include realistic contact and dynamic applications (i.e. movement). The differences in focus and toughness are most notable when its an MMA or boxing or kickboxing system. The smart LEO's use their training to sharpen their edge. But some still see their training as the 'style' they'll use in the street and therein lies a danger. In short, I cant offer you research just impressions, if officers trained more realistically and they integrated threat assessment, use of force policy and blended the agency required SOP to facilitate an arrest, that those who were hardened warriors would have an easier time making it all work. Tony
11/18/03 11:32 AM
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SIUMAC
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Edited: 18-Nov-03
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Realistic Martial Arts Training Asn
Mr Blauer, Thanks for your input. I completely agree. Do you know where I can see the actual study that the LAPD did? Thanks Vince
11/18/03 12:33 PM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 18-Nov-03
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Vince- From the report I saw LAPD did report a reduction in not only suspect injuries but in officer injuries - as well as a reduction in excessive force claims and use of force liability payouts, after insituting a grappling based training program. Try to contact Greg Dossey (he should be Sgt or above by now) or Officer Steve Uhrig with LAPD for help. Steve Uhrig is one of Gene Lebell's organization's directors, so you might find contact infor for him on Lebell's site if you come up dry with LAPD.
11/18/03 6:42 PM
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SIUMAC
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Edited: 18-Nov-03
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TacticalGrappler, (nice username) Where did you see that LAPD report? I'd love to see it. It sounds perfect for what I need. Were you saying to get ahold of Steve so he could get that report for me? Gene and Gokor are my main grappling instructors, I can talk to them about contacting Steve if necessary. Thanks
12/1/03 12:06 PM
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bryggjemann
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Edited: 04-Dec-03 08:10 AM
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12/18/03 11:43 AM
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Rick T
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Edited: 18-Dec-03
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SIUMAC: It would be GREAT if you could share youre findings from the LAPD report. I could really use it as Im trying to get my dept brass to listen. email: hartforddojogoju@yahoo.com Sgt. Rick Torres DMHAS Police 525 Russell Road Newington, CT 06111
12/19/03 4:19 PM
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Rick T
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Edited: 19-Dec-03
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THANX!!! THANX!!! THANX!!! This is very helpful. All the best, Rick T
12/22/03 8:11 AM
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JMullings
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Edited: 22-Dec-03
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Thinkfirst, Thanks for the data. It is noted at the top of your info that the statistics are based upon BJJ training integrated into the LAPD curriculum. Commenting on these stats purely from a physical training standpoint, I believe its important for those who read those stats to consider the specific techniques that were taught to the officers. I am a huge supporter and dedicated practicioner of BJJ and Grappling. I train 5 days per week in BCS, grappling, BJJ, Muay Thai. Our training facility teaches BJJ, grappling, and Combatives to our student base of Law Enforecement and civilians. We have highly qualified LE instructors who are on the street going hands on every day down here in Florida. Before you teach or memorize a technique, it is critical to run those BJJ techniques through a realistic filter before adopting them. Most of the "basic" BJJ techniques against a non compliant person will get you in a "very bad situation", if not killed. As mentioned, I do not know the exact curriculum taught by LAPD as referenced in the article. As a general statement, It always concerns me when organizations adopt a trademark for their training. Especially when that trademark did not consider the end user and their respective consequences. I look forward to Fletch's comments on this subject. Joe Mullings www.amma.tv
12/23/03 2:50 AM
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SIUMAC
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Edited: 23-Dec-03
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Realistic Martial Arts Training Asn
Great info guys, thanks alot. I'm still trying to find the official copy of that LAPD report, and hopefully I can use it for my thesis. Hopefully I'll be on done by May, and I'll surely post it when I'm done. Vince
12/23/03 8:51 PM
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FJJ828
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Edited: 23-Dec-03
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C.
"Commenting on these stats purely from a physical training standpoint, I believe its important for those who read those stats to consider the specific techniques that were taught to the officers." IMHO, it's important to look at this with a panoramic view. Something I remember from my first class with Tony back in 1999 was him saying "I don't teach techniques. I teach Tools, Targets & Tactics". That stayed with me and formed a foundation for how I trained myself and instructed & coached others. Back to the point: I'd much rather consider how the officers were instructed and to what standard were they held. The street environment can be uncompromising and unforgiving. If you ask any cop what move or technique he used to subdue a subject, you are likely to get a puzzled look & a shrug. All he/she might remember is that the objective was to get the subject prone with hands behind the back. "Before you teach or memorize a technique, it is critical to run those BJJ techniques through a realistic filter before adopting them. Most of the "basic" BJJ techniques against a non compliant person will get you in a "very bad situation", if not killed." I agree except for the "most" in the last sentence. BJJ as it is taught in most schools, is a sport. As long as it is trained in a "street model", I think quite a few of the basic tactics would be useful to cops...IF...they have game, IF they have played out scenarios against resisting opponents and IF they understand when to abort/ disengage. The BJJ delivery system itself is pretty effective for ground control & defense if trained appropriately. The trouble is getting people to train at all, training them within their tactical directives and training them to a standard that can be maintained. I am doing quite a bit of training with Luis Gutierrez- ISR Matrix addressing and dealing with some of these very issues(training standards, progressive resistance, tactical considerations). Importantly but not surprisingly, Tony's & Luis' work compliment one another. Fletch
12/24/03 11:06 PM
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FJJ828
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Edited: 24-Dec-03 11:34 PM
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C.
"Forgive my ignorance, but what's the difference between a tool and a technique?" Not a problem. This is the way I understand and apply the concept: A technique is a move or series of moves passed on without regard or consideration to scenario specifics. Techniques are commonly taught in TMA as static technical responses to given attack. A tool is similar but the term lends itself more to the "toolbox" concept as in "the right tool for the right job (or scenario)". A tool can be a punch, kick, takedown, finishing hold or physical & mental conditioning. Obviously, your tools must be "sharp" and in good working order. They get that way through mental/ psychological prep, training repetition and progressive resistance. Targets are not limited to phyisical anatomy but also include "targets of opportunity" recognition and how to evaluate yourself as a potential target. Tactics bring it all together. Once you know what to do and how to do it, you need to make sure that you can perform in the arena. I think this is a far more comprehensive approach to SD & LEO training than what is commonly taught. I'm not sure if this is how Tony would phrase it, but I base this rather exclusively on my experience with his material.
12/24/03 11:19 PM
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FJJ828
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Edited: 24-Dec-03
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C.
Re: My above post about BJJ. I do not necesarily think that a program based exclusively on BJJ would be appropriate for cops. I do think that certain skills of weight distribution, balance, positional dominance and damage control are critical for CQT. I have attended DT Instructor level courses based exclusively on Gracie JJ and Submission Grappling only to find them tactically unsound by cop standards so I am in no way pimping BJJ as the be all-end all for law enforcement.
12/25/03 2:09 PM
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P
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Edited: 25-Dec-03
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Fletch, I couldn't agree more about being sure all of your tools and tactics are submitted to the 'appropriateness filter' before being trusted with your life. As Tony so often says, "What's the scenario?" Applied to that the 'truth' usually becomes quickly evident. What is appropriate for MMA or a BJJ tournament may not be appropiate 'on the job' and vice versa. I am also a great fan of BJJ for many of it's qualities as an 'attribute free delivery system'. I'm not suprised that Luis and Tony's material compliment each other as both are commited to the truth and using and teaching what works. It is always great to hear from the REAL warriors, like yourself who are commited to keeping the rest of us safe! Happy Holidays! Phil
12/25/03 10:27 PM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 25-Dec-03 10:37 PM
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Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Thanks Phil & Fletch for the references...appreciate that and its good to see that the research is being applied. As for the stats... I have been to the LAPD academy and trained their instructors briefly, separate to my session they have also been taught some of our tactics during cross training with a military group I had trained on the West Coast...in other words, Im not just typing becuase I have an opinion, I have seen parts of the program and therefore I have an opinion based on observation. I have also seen the LAPD grappling classes as taught at LEO conferences and it contains a lot of sport sequences which concerns me as an outsider, however, as long as transitions to alternative tools are also incorporated, there's nothing wrong with it (grappling) (again as long as the manual and instructors emphasize realistc use of force decisions prior to simply forcing a fight to the ground). Bottom line: stats tell the story they need to tell. Everyone should know that and it shouldnt offend anyone to remind 'us' all that the message is not the style, but the philosphy... In other words, the formula for contention could be applied to any form of combative training...in fact the formula could be applied to shooting skills cops who train in a realistic/dymanic setting, etc etc). This isnt to knock grappling, just a reminder: "Dont mistake the trademark for the truth" BTCMS maxim What matters is confidence. And that is achieved through CONTACT training during RESISTANCE. This isnt about grappling per se, its about applying modern training and moving past the archaic come-alongs from the 1950 karate-do/aikido manuals. Tony
12/30/03 8:13 AM
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JMullings
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Edited: 30-Dec-03
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Back to basics... Tony pointed out something to us all when we first started training with him, a very simple, yet deep philosophy to evaluate a system, style, technique, etc.... Dont look at what the Good Guy player is doing, look at what the bad guy player is doing." Consider using that as a filter when deciding on an end user and their application of a tactic. Joe Mullings www.amma.tv
1/13/04 12:32 PM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 13-Jan-04 12:40 PM
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All, The info above from Warrior Talk is something I posted... We have to remember that statistics are not going to reflect the reality of individual situations - only generalizations. They are also limited in the picture they portray. If I were to say that statistically, 65% of fights go to the ground, but 90% of fights in which serious injury or death is suffered go to the ground, it paints a very different picture. (The last stat I made up - also a problem with stats). I tend to agree with the posters here. BJJ, as is, needs some serious adaptation for street use - law enforcement or not. The primary reason for this is weapon retention, and control of a suspect's hands (followed by awareness and preparation for multiple opponents). Sport BJJ does not take this into account. At the Washington State Criminal Justice training center several high level grapplers have been very surprised when they put a gun belt on, started to "roll" with much less skilled grapplers, and ended up losing their guns. Thankfully, when you are used to working with and around weapons and work grappling with the weapons based environment in mind, some BJJ skills adapt very readily to armed/potentially armed application. As has been stated - ya gotta test it under realistic pressure to learn what does and does not adapt. That being said, I believe it is CRUCIAL that officers train extensively in realistic ground control and ground survival, as the former (control) happens on a daily basis, and the latter (survival) is almost as dangerous as being in a gun fight. And the former, done right, will typically negate the latter (i.e. if you control the encounter correctly you shouldn't end up fighting for survival.) We see a LOT of survival situation videos from car cams and other tapes, and hear the debriefs in which an officer ended up on the ground at some point and the suspect continued to fight/assault him there. Sadly you frequently see and hear these in situations where officers either are killed, or never recover enough to ever work again. We spend all sorts of time and money on training with firearms and a firearms encounter may NEVER happen. A fight on the ground is far more likely, since that is where we take the most violent resisters anyway, and could be just as dangerous.
2/9/04 7:30 AM
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Hab
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Edited: 20-Feb-04 04:10 AM
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I offer my observations in this. I am no Chu Fen Do coach. MMA is good training, and good training is good. MMA gives tools to bring to a fight. And a cop with such tools is better than not having them. However, the MMA is just one factor in a factor in a factor. In the world of self defense the priorities change. There are some no-no's that makes big differences from within a ring where two athletes are attempting to apply themselves within a set of rules and conditions to be declared a winner of the bout. So the MMA needs some tweaking and priorities to be an effective delivery system on the street. But it is one major factor in it. Your DELIVERY SYSTEM is one dimension, one factor, in your Personal Defense Readiness. Possibly nullified if you are lacking psychologically and/or emotionally. Exercising a tactical awareness, picking up pre contact clues, adrenaline signs, tune your attention to pick up incongruencies and intent. Your defense readiness must be integrated into your desired repertoir of actions. To avoid being injured while assuming compliancy from subjects. To be calling for backup while in a confrontational situation. Like instructing civilians to keep the distance while you pin down a suspect. With a series of actions which do not come at the expense of your safety, you are able to find "Personal" Operating Procedure within SOP's to find the personal policy which makes a cop. And implementing a mental learning strategy to increase you situational awareness. All things being equal, MMA Cops are better, but I don't think the statistics of cops being injured or killed will correlate the tragic outcome to not being able to jab, choke, armbar or duck in a boxing ring or on a mat.
3/2/04 12:11 PM
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tac364
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Edited: 02-Mar-04
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Vince, Johnny-New Braunfels, Texas. We've talked before, but for the benefit of others, here it goes:I'm a cop with a small narcotics task force. I'm also a member of the SWAT Team.My situation and job description varies from day to day. But I still want the same end result-to go home to my family at the end of the shift. We as officers rarely receive enough training in the "defensive tactics" field. We receive countless hours of training mandated to us by the state or agency in other fields. We know how to fill out the correct paperwork for a specific offense,how to fill out a ticket or booking sheet, even how to change a flat tire for an elderly person on the side of the road. We are expected to know how to save others from some of the most deadly situations they will ever encounter-but do we know how to save ourselves? Once in a while, I'll look up a Police Memorial page and read of how some officers are killed in the line of duty. Vehicle accidents are the leading cause, but I focus on the officers who are stabbed, shot, beaten to death, or disarmed and killed their own gun. There is also a high number of deaths by heart attack. Not to get off subject, but many officers lead unhealthy lifestyles, usually blamed on the job itself: eating fast food (usually free), drinking sodas (caffiene and sugar), smoking (cure for boredom?), improper sleep (unusual hours) and alcohol abuse (to cope). Back on track - - officers who participate in realistic training will be far better prepared that officers who don't! When we train in... let's say, a "goose neck come-along" (straight out of the academy), we learn two things. We learn how to apply it: the what,when and whys are answered for us. We drill the technique until we can perfom it without hesitation. The second thing we learn is not to abuse it: we learn how it feels!!!We learn the potential for injury!!! We learn that it is not a game, this is for real. I believe that as cops, our goal and natural feelings is that we do not want to cause injury or disfigurement to any person. This is why injuries and excessive use of force complaints decrease when officers learn and practice these methods. You would not believe the uphill battle to convince others of this. Realistic training, in the SPEAR System, MMA,etc. will also train the officers minds how to react in a physical confrontation, as Mr. Blauer says: to accept what is happening to you and to keep thinking. I have seen officers in a fight literally lock up and forget what to do, even if they grew up as a street fighter themselves. The mind can be our best friend, or our worst enemy. When I was younger I practiced in a very traditional for of Karate. Now, I train differently, I've been to the SPEAR Instructor's Course, and received seminars from C.A.T.I. of Brazil (www.cati.br), Counter Assault Tactics (www.sunkats.com)from Dr. Sal Moralez, and of course your MMA and soon to be Law Enforcement Seminar. I try to get as much training for the agency as possible.I read and study everything I can get my hands on.I speak with my supervisors and members of the administration about changes in the use of force policy.Vince, I don't have the numbers or the hard copies of any studys to show you. All I have is a few years of work on the streets. And I'll tell you, once I began learning and training, my sense of confidence went up, my job performance went up, my communication skills went up. The more I knew, the better I felt, the better I felt, the better I acted....right Mr. Blauer. So a resounding "yes" to the question of: Are MMA cops better? So I encourage all LEO's to train, as long as it is realistic - regardless of its title. Train hard and smart, for the day will come. Thanks Mr. Blauer and Vince for all that you do, Johnny Guerrero - tac364@yahoo.com
3/2/04 3:58 PM
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SIUMAC
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Edited: 02-Mar-04
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Realistic Martial Arts Training Asn
Johny, excellent post. I can tell that your a good cop. Keep up the good work influencing those around you. See you at the seminar soon! Vince

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