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Karate UnderGround >> Difference btw yoga and tai chi ??

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2/10/04 11:44 PM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 10-Feb-04
Member Since: 09/21/2002
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"Or, the crap from "Kung Fu: The Legend Continues" could have been a cause of this kind of fantasy." I always thoguht that show to be very contradicitive... caine claims to be a shaolin which you guys are sayin is buddhist but he also talks about chi and other things that are related to taoism and not buddhism.
2/11/04 8:35 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 11-Feb-04
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I thought Bhuddists practiced chikung as well. And ki in Japan is the same thing, but Taoism was never big there. Chi, I think, was more of a common biological theory tied to the general culture of the region, rather than specific to any one philosophy/religion. The Greek pneuma was also a very similar concept, so it could even have been the dominant concept in the old world.
2/11/04 7:03 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 11-Feb-04
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"I thought Bhuddists practiced chikung as well." Do they? Depends what you consider a chikung, I think. There are meditation methods for enlightenment perhaps... If that "yi jin jing" exercise is not seen in other Chan buddhist lineages outside of the Shaolin one, who's to say that any of those exercises are truly Buddhist in origin. "Chi, I think, was more of a common biological theory tied to the general culture of the region, rather than specific to any one philosophy/religion." I think so too. But it would be interesting to see if Chi is historically mentioned in any Buddhist teachings. And if they are specific to Chan Buddhism or not.
2/12/04 7:46 AM
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Hillbilly
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Edited: 12-Feb-04
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I`ve seen many variations of the Yi Chin Ching and the 18 Lohan..
2/12/04 9:52 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 12-Feb-04
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'Do they? Depends what you consider a chikung, I think' I should have been specific. Shaolin is what I meant. At least, that is wat Wong Kiew Kit once said, but then, I hear he claims to control the weather (just forum gossip tho).
2/12/04 4:04 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 12-Feb-04
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What defines 'true' Buddhism ? Mahayana, Tibetan, Chan, Theravada are all off-shoots of Buddhist teachings. "If that "yi jin jing" exercise is not seen in other Chan buddhist lineages outside of the Shaolin one, who's to say that any of those exercises are truly Buddhist in origin." The Bodhidharma legend may or not have some truth in it, but it's true that Indian theories of energy manipulation are fairly similar, as seen in kundalini yoga
2/12/04 6:21 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 12-Feb-04
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Hillbilly writes: "I`ve seen many variations of the Yi Chin Ching and the 18 Lohan.. " Have you seen them in a Chan Buddhist sect which does not trace it's lineage back to Shaolin? Naughty Gorilla writes: "What defines 'true' Buddhism ? Mahayana, Tibetan, Chan, Theravada are all off-shoots of Buddhist teachings." They are all Buddhist however only Chan is descended from Bodhidharma as far as I know. "The Bodhidharma legend may or not have some truth in it, but it's true that Indian theories of energy manipulation are fairly similar, as seen in kundalini yoga" Right. So since yoga predates Buddhism, if Bodhidharma (or whoever the founders of Chan Buddhism were) taught these theories as part of Buddhism we should see evidence of these theories in Chan Buddhist sects outside of the Shaolin one. Do we?
2/14/04 11:59 AM
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SDriver
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Edited: 14-Feb-04
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There are meditative postures in Tibetan Buddhism that are a lot like yoga asanas. The Dalai Lama's books often indicate parallels between yoga and Dzogchen meditation practice. Many samurai gave at least lip service to Zen. While Buddhism is nominally a nonviolent path, absolute rules of conduct are discouraged ... violence is a negative action, but the overwhelming majority of beings can't avoid all negative action. An extreme adherence to pacifism regardless of circumstances is as foolish for most people as extreme belligerence regardless of circumstances. The Buddha Dharma encourages moderation and consideration of the totality of the circumstances -- the Middle Way. Violent acts aren't "sins," they simply have karmic consequences like all volitional acts. Just as there are Buddhists who eat meat, there are Buddhists who will beat the shit out of you.
2/14/04 3:27 PM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 14-Feb-04
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"The Bodhidharma legend may or not have some truth in it, but it's true that Indian theories of energy manipulation are fairly similar, as seen in kundalini yoga" So are you saying that buddhism is a load of crap kind of thing?
2/14/04 7:05 PM
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poobear
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Edited: 14-Feb-04
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Bhuddism is known to most of the world as a philosophy with metaphysics. Chi/prana is beside the point, and not really the reason for its wide appeal.
2/15/04 6:44 AM
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Hillbilly
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Edited: 15-Feb-04
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As far as I know the game "Go" is the first recorded MA in China..
2/15/04 7:06 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 15-Feb-04
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SDriver writes: "There are meditative postures in Tibetan Buddhism that are a lot like yoga asanas. The Dalai Lama's books often indicate parallels between yoga and Dzogchen meditation practice. " Tibetan Buddhism is not descended from Boddhidharma as far as I know. Though it would be interesting (as an aside) if they consider those meditative postures as chikungs and whether they teach any theories about chi and so forth. FutureProdigy writes: "So are you saying that buddhism is a load of crap kind of thing?" Huh? Look, it's a fairly subtle point. This has nothing to do with Chan Buddhism being a load of crap or other sects of Buddhism. Shaolin kungfu was supposedly derived from chikung exercises created by Boddhidharma, the 1st patriarch of Chan buddhism in China. Essentially I am looking for evidence of that theory by asking what other sects of Chan Buddhism have those exercises.
2/16/04 12:01 PM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 16-Feb-04
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ttt
2/16/04 12:06 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 16-Feb-04
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Good question. I don't think the physical exercise was ever considered integral to the religion though, it was just a practical thing to keep in shape and eventually maybe to ward off bandits. "Shaolin kungfu was supposedly derived from chikung exercises created by Boddhidharma, the 1st patriarch of Chan buddhism in China. Essentially I am looking for evidence of that theory by asking what other sects of Chan Buddhism have those exercises."
3/8/04 11:05 PM
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Iceberg Slim
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Edited: 08-Mar-04
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That theory is probably false. If you've ever read the texts where Boddidharma is mentioned, none really mention his role as founder of C'han Buddhism, at least not to the extent that you would expect. In fact he is occasionally portrayed as somewhat of a country bumpkin and is used almost as a foil to show the superiority of Chinese culture. Shaolin kungfu is an umbrella term that covers a number of different styles; one of the more plausible explanations I've heard is that many revolutionaries, military men, and criminals found refuge in the temples over the years and brought their respective styles with them.
3/18/04 7:07 PM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 18-Mar-04
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can someone explain all this controversy around boddidharma.. im not well educated on this topic. Is Gautam Buddha this same guy? and if so are you guys implying buddhism is not what its made out to be. Sorry im really confussed with thigns right now, im on a piss load of pain killers cause of my wisdom teeth.
4/19/04 9:44 AM
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OpinionsVary
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Edited: 19-Apr-04
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Hi guys. I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet, but I really wanted to jump in. I noticed a few messages asking about Ch'an Buddhism and Taoism, and were Shaolin monks Buddhist or Taoist. Ch'an is the Chinese word for meditation. In Japanese it is Zen. (To the best of my knowledge, but I have also heard otherwise.) Just as chi and ki are basicly the same idea. The "sects" of Zen and Ch'an are widely considered Buddhist "sects." (I use the term sects lightly here because I do not consider Zen/Ch'an religions in the typical sense; as in there is no "worship" of a buddha as a god figure. Buddhas, at least to the Zen/Ch'an students, are just enlightend men... like Joe Goodnature down the street.) While Zen/Ch'an are widely considered Buddhist, I would have to say that it is MUCH more Taoist than traditional Buddhism. "Zen began in China in the sixth century as a meeting of Indian Buddhism with Taoism..." (The Little Zen Companion, 1994) In fact, when asked, I tell people I am a Zen Buddhist. Even though Tao Te Ching is the text I draw from the most. So Taoism and Zen are not so black and white, and so easy to tell apart. I guess you could call Zen a hybrid religion... or philosophy, as Taoism too has no god figure. "Is Gautam Buddha this same guy? and if so are you guys implying buddhism is not what its made out to be." Are you speaking of Siddhartha Gautama? You must understand that there are more than one Buddha; although Siddhartha Gautama (b. 566 BC) is widely considered THE Buddha. Who da buddha? He da buddha. Bodhidharma was born around 440 AD. Please take this information with a grain of salt, from a Zen Buddhist who reads the main Taoist text for his "bible." And I can only speak of Zen/Ch'an, I have EXTREMELY limited knowledge of other Buddhist sects. Thanks to anyone who read all that. :)
4/20/04 9:56 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 20-Apr-04
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Taoism as a religion is polytheistic.. " I guess you could call Zen a hybrid religion... or philosophy, as Taoism too has no god figure. "
4/22/04 8:12 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 22-Apr-04
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Great info!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
4/28/04 1:05 AM
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OpinionsVary
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Edited: 28-Apr-04
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"Taoism as a religion is polytheistic.." Interesting, where do you get your information?
4/30/04 7:36 AM
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OpinionsVary
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Edited: 30-Apr-04
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ttt
5/16/04 10:07 AM
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CATP
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Edited: 16-May-04
Member Since: 09/05/2003
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Great thread with knowledgable comments from Ed2002, RapidAssault and others. As my first post on MMA (hi folks! Just started BJJ, but also love TMA and TCMA :-) I'd just like to reinforce their generally sceptical and wary position. There are a lot of stories about Gongfu (Kungfu) in general, Shaolin, Taiji, etc., etc., that are bandied around like Chinese Whispers (if you'll pardon the pun). There may be tiny bits of truth in many of them, but ascertainable facts are thin on the ground. Re. Taiji and the Daoist connection (Zhang Sanfeng, Chan San Feng), the most absolutely basic academic starting point is the following scholarly article:- http://www.nardis.com/%7Etwchan/henning.html Henning also did a splendid article debunking a lot of the Shaolin crap, but that article is no longer available on the web (I could post it here if anybody's interested though). The long and the short of it is, basically, that anybody who believes the scenario that these arts were invented by bearded sages or monks is a victim of mythopeoia, both Chinese and Western; much more likely, these arts evolved as MA have always evolved - through use, in real fighting, over time, with gradual refinements by high level players as time goes on. As to Buddhism: over time, Buddhism has become pretty syncretic, the only things making most forms of Buddhism in many different countries and culture being recognisable as Buddhism are the 4 Noble Truths, some of the earliest texts (Suttas/Agamas) and the Vinaya (code of monks' conduct). The rest - the metaphysics, psychology, theories, meditation practices, further elaborate texts of various kinds - have often been borrowed from host cultures as Buddhism spread through the East (and it's adapting in the same way in the West now). In China, Buddhism did indeed encounter Daoism and create a synthesis between the two religions. In fact this happened twice - the first time, the origins of which is shrouded in lack of firm historical data, probably roundabout 500-600 CE, leading to what became Ch'an (Zen), with a predominantly Buddhist flavour. The second time roundabout the 1100s when the mix became Quanzhen Daoism, this time with more of a predominantly Daoist flavour. Daoism as a religion is basically shamanic - it has many gods, ritual magick, talismanic magick, "astral travel" - and always has done, as far back as recorded history. Daoist "philosophy" is now understood by modern scholarship to be a bit of a misnomer, and Daoist religion isn't derived from Daoist philosophy as represented in the Daodejing/Zhuangzi, nor is it any kind of "degenerate" form of what once was a pure philosophy. Instead, we have to look at Daoism as always having been a mix of several things: 1) biophysical practices, often involving both quetistic and active meditation, breathing practices, sometimes practices similar to "inner tantra" in the Buddhist traditions, which sort of crossover into what is nowadays called Qigong, but which used to be called "Daoyin"; 2) The "philosophy" (actually more like several closely related philosophies) espoused in the "classics" - the Laozi (Daodejing), the Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu) - sometimes called the "literati" tradition of Daoism; 3) various popular movements, including sometimes "secret societies", with millennial aspirations (perhaps comparable to the West's own conspiratorial revolutionary movements in many ways), but usually involving holistic ways of life for ordinary people that offered an alternative to the total state of mainstream Chinese society. Not every form of Daoism has had all 3 aspects present, but there have to be at least 2 for something to be reasonably called Daoism. Whew! And with that, let the conversation continue! :-)
5/17/04 11:52 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 17-May-04
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"http://www.nardis.com/%7Etwchan/henning.html Henning also did a splendid article debunking a lot of the Shaolin crap, but that article is no longer available on the web (I could post it here if anybody's interested though)." I'm interested. "The long and the short of it is, basically, that anybody who believes the scenario that these arts were invented by bearded sages or monks is a victim of mythopeoia, both Chinese and Western; much more likely, these arts evolved as MA have always evolved - through use, in real fighting, over time, with gradual refinements by high level players as time goes on." I think that's likely. I'm curious why the Shaolin temple would be singled out as something special rather than any other temple.
5/19/04 3:14 PM
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RapidAssault
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Edited: 19-May-04
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"I'm curious why the Shaolin temple would be singled out as something special rather than any other temple." Check out the book "The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung Fu" by Adam Hsu. He explains rather well the evolution of the myth surrounding Shaolin and the Chinese martial arts. I've always found it interesting that there are people who believes in the "single origin" theory -- in this case, that all martial arts started at Shaolin. This is especially in light of what many would accept as historical facts, that many ideas surrounding Shaolin simply does not add up when put in context to the events in history. As I've stated in my earlier post, there is a tendency of the martial arts enthusiasts to put more weight and importance on the role/development of the martial arts; whereas the scholars in the field of history or religious studies would downplay or not make mention of the martial arts. On another note, and somewhat related to this topic, there is this instructor in my town who teaches RUAH as part of his "JKD" curriculum. He is convinced that all martial arts came from Egypt. His "evidence" are of the pictures found in the pyramids depicting combative postures and such; furthermore, he claims that the martial arts of Egypt spread out towards Europe (into Greece) and through the Middle East towards India (and subsequently into China via Shaolin). He also claims that the concept of "Chi" came from Egypt. Of course, this became known as "pneuma" in Greece. Despite how interesting the idea is, the basic problem still exists in that it still ignores a large portion of history of these other cultures, not to mention that the same ideas could have sprouted in two different areas that has no connection to each other. At the heart of the matter is that this instructor has replaced one single origin theory with another, thus he still thinks that the martial arts is a linear development.
5/20/04 2:52 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 20-May-04
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Awesome post CATP !

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