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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Correct Response?


2/13/04 6:33 PM
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mAnyStylEs
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Edited: 13-Feb-04
Member Since: 05/09/2003
Posts: 35
 
I had a situation last night and was wondering if I instituted the correct response. Here goes: Just got home from the supermarket, when no more then ten minutes later, someone knocks on my door. I open the door and it's your average thug. He was about 6'1" 230lbs. pretty big. I'm 5'11" 207lbs. Him - "I live downstairs and you need to keep the noise down." Me - "I just got here. You need to go check next store." Him - "Well, there's been some noise up here, so just keep the noise down." Me- "Look I just told you, you better check next door because I just got here." Him - "Don'r get an attitude" Me - "I'm not getting an attitude. I told I just got here, so you need to check next door." He walks off staring, but the whole time we were talking I never dropped my eye contact. I still could see his hands and feet even though I was looking directly in his eyes. By our second dialogue, I noticed hostility, so I automatically got in a fight stance, very non-chulantly(sp?). Just placed my right foot in front of my left. Ready for anything. I was scared but it I wouldn't have ran. It actually felt good. I was already fighting him in my head while we were talking. The nervous seemed to be all energy. It was beautiful. I refrained from fighting because my daughter stays with me on weekends so, I didn't want any incidents to happen while she is there. Was this a good response or could I have done something different? Thanks, MS
2/13/04 8:08 PM
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sudbrink
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Edited: 13-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 19
"I was already fighting him in my head while we were talking." I love that quote, because I do the same thing !!!!! ... Done better ? Start with peripheral vision maybe ? (ie looking at chin or chest)
2/13/04 8:14 PM
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sudbrink
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Edited: 13-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 20
Oh yeah - maybe better dialogue "I just got home and have been out 'all day/for hours' so you might want to check next door." He may not believe you, but most importantly, don't tell him what to do - only make suggestions. Also - he was stupid to accuse you without questioning you. -Gary
2/14/04 12:38 PM
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GaryK
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Edited: 14-Feb-04
Member Since: 03/26/2002
Posts: 15
MS: Any fight you live through is a "win" of sorts. Remember, though, Coach Blauer defines "real fights" as the only ones we can't avoid. In other words, you faced what very well could have been a prelude to a real fight, but it never became one because your "thug" decided to argue, not ambush or act. In Coach's Cerebral Self Defense audio series he states, "Those who talk can usually be pursuaded to walk." Looks like you, too, found this to be true. I appreciate your mental state, your awareness and your recognizing the "fight within the fight" taht took place in your mind. I believe that BGs can pick up on this energy and realize that they are dealing with someone who is not wholly "unaware". In any event, don't beat YOURSELF up looking at what did/didn't happen or what COULD have happened. The truth is always revealed in the outcome, and you, your daughter and your A-HOLE neighbor are safe. Keep training, Gary
2/14/04 2:08 PM
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TSA
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Edited: 14-Feb-04 05:26 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5
The end result was desirable for all involved. Win win win (you, him and your daughter). You were rapidly engaged mentally in the scenario. You made choices that resulted in a successful outcome, so my advice is to avoid second guessing yourself. However, that doesn't mean you cannot use the experience to role play other possible choices and out comes good and bad. For example choice speech options "Whoa, I can understand how you feel. I would be upset too, but I have been away all day so I could not have been disturbing you." Or "I have the same complaint about the neighbor how about we both file a complaint" These are just guesses but you get the idea. Now you could also work a scenario with a more belligerent BG and the levels of force needed. Also your experience would lead me to want to explore the environmental issues of engaging him in a hallway or entryway. What I am describing is a Live Action Response Drill or (LARD). This is same scenario role played with different possible outcomes depending on the BG's actions. 1 Verbal Defuse, 2 Stun & Run, 3 Stun & Control, 4 Stun & terminate the threat. You were successful and that's what counts. Hope this helps with future training ideas. Tom & Dana Arcuri
2/15/04 10:38 PM
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taroson
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Edited: 15-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 79
MS, As Tom, Dana and Gary have already stated, the fact that there was no violence means that the outcome was a desirable one. You did the best you could and everyone ended up OK. Id say thats a pretty good outcome. As to what can be learned from the experience, well, thats kind of up to you. By doing the L.A.R.D. drill suggested by Tom, (or is it Dana?) you give yourself the opportunity to learn on all kinds of levels. The Choice Speech component is one that we could all stand to work a little more. Personally I think it would be a good idea to get to know a little more about this guy, just so you know what you are dealing with. I have some acquaintances that are pretty rough looking and might even be a little thuggish, but they are no real threat. If he turns out to be dangerous and not just rough looking you have a far better gauge on how to deal with him. If it were me I would use a little of what Tom (or was it Dana) suggested and be courteous and polite. Find out what his name is and create some communication. If you can make peace with this guy, well, thats a good thing considering he lives near you and you may have to deal with him in the future. The last thing you and your daughter need is a hostile neighbor. As far as being ready to handle the physical fight, if it were to happen, it sounds from what you wrote that you were thinking tactically and ready to roll. That means you were thinking like a victor, not a victim and is a critical psychological and emotional shift that must take place before we can take action. This essential element is missed by many systems. I think you would learn a great deal from Tonys audio trilogy. Very inexpensive, good education. Once again, the results speak for themselves. You have an opportunity to explore and learn from your experience. What will you do with it? Best of Luck and Happy Training. Take Care, Mike
2/16/04 3:51 AM
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Hab
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Edited: 16-Feb-04
Member Since: 05/27/2003
Posts: 116
The talker became a walker. That's good. You have taken this opportunity to learn. To get better. To prepare yourself for the next time. That's good. It is impossible to judge just from quotes how the confrontation itself went. It looks promising. You were presentminded. The trained response was there for you when you needed it. You have a distinct sensation from that encounter which you can recall in training when roleplaying, and thus get more out of it. You are no doubt even better prepared for the next one. Maybe not perfect, but we've given up perfect long time ago (went out the window with the coreography of Hollywood). Evaluating the net result, I'd say you got a good deal.
2/16/04 7:09 PM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 16-Feb-04 07:16 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 722
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
A lot of good replies here... I'll take a meta-spin on this cause thats what I do. This may ruffle some feathers, but we'll see...this is my perspective. "Are you training for your next fight or your last fight." BTCMS & PDR Maxim. The truth behind that maxim is the filter that determines if, how and when people want to learn and grow from their experiences. Keep it in mind as you read my opinions. First: The bottom line is that everyone went home safe... But there is an area that wasnt addressed and I feel needs pointing out because it an important lesson that can be learned by hypothesis rather than by experience...I hope this helps: You wrote: "I refrained from fighting because my daughter stays with me on weekends so, I didn't want any incidents to happen while she is there." The implication here is that you might have fought had your daughter not been there....why? And if she wasn't there would you have pushed it? And if you beat him, would that have been it for you and him living in such close proximity? If he got his ass whipped would he have tried other means to get back at you? (Gang, weapon, arson) and could you have predicted or ensured your daughter's safety? In other words, why ignite violence or the potential for retroactive violence? You (we) cannot predict when & where violence may occur, but certainly by creating enemies or feuds we increase the probability. Food for thought. Basically, the guy didn't want to fight. How do we know? He didn't. Thats the first enigma clue of the "Those who talk, can usually be persuaded to walk" maxim from my company. What is required is CHOICE SPEECH that supports the directive (no violence here & now). I think no one wanted to fight and that's what happened. Next observation: You wrote: "By our second dialog, I noticed hostility, so I automatically got in a fight stance, very non-chulantly(sp?). Just placed my right foot in front of my left. Ready for anything." Did you know that body language was 60% of communication and tone was 30%? Words only account for 10%. In other words did you telegraph preparedness, even subtly? Perhaps that explains his continued hostility...perhaps he reacted to 'danger close'...all this stuff happens at the unconscious level. You wrote: Me- "Look I just told you, you better check next door because I just got here." Him - "Don'r get an attitude" More dissection: The word "Look" in this context is agressive...its a warning, its a"Im drawing a line in the sand, dont cross it' expression... the 'You better" is an order...a thug,as you describe him would interpret that as 'attitude'. *(Im not saying he was an angel or that your concern with the scenario wasnt warranted - this is PDR deep analysis). A good introspective aid would be to replay the stance shift and you play around with words & tone and you could envision many different reactions. Lastly, consider this hypothetical: Maybe he's seen you and knows you train, he's a thug, so he senses this toughness in you - you have the eyes and just THOUGHT it was your apartment making the noise and built up the nerve to knock on your door, hypothetically he would have a nervous and aggressive in demeanor...incidently, so many confrontation happen like this (misinterpreted tone or eye contact). Reread this a couple of times. As I stated earlier Im glad nothing happened for your daughter's sake, but there are a lot of nuances that many people dont see or identify that account for reasons we all get too close to violence. If you're seriously looking for my opinion, if you were a private student of mine, I just shared with you what I'd have said and your thread title "Correct Response?" semantically speaking should be reworded as "Correct Result?" and I wholeheartedly agree. :-) Tony
2/17/04 8:46 AM
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JMullings
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Edited: 17-Feb-04 08:44 AM
Member Since: 01/31/2002
Posts: 224
Quite a few really nice responses already posted here on this thread . Outcome of the situation is ultimately what counts. It looks like everyone went home intact. Egos and pride aside. So your outcome was a good one. You do want to take this situation and dissect it as to how you might respond given different approach by your 'thug'. Tom and Dana suggested LARD (Live Action Response Drills) which are some of my favorite training evolutions. Very appropriate for this application. Consider level of threat, improvised weapons, appropriatness of response, legal ramifications of response. Careful not to assign any more danger to your threat than need be. You labeled him at '6'1 and 220 lbs&pretty big' , reading into that had your first potential outlook as a bleak one. Just because he was bigger than you (ie, Get Shorty) Coach already touched on the not fighting scenario due to your daughter being there. Being that this person is potentially a neighbor and more importantly someone who knows where you live, I would seriously consider not laying a beating on someone who knows where you live. I learned that the hard way a long time ago. If it is NOT a home invasion or a situation on par with that )garage entry, carjacking in driveway, etc) let the conflict go. Dirtbags who know where you live are the worst people to lay a beating on. They have very little to lose, dont consider consequences, are often are under the influence of something so their judgement is impaired&..and you will potentially always have a huge headache on your hands or worse. Persuade them to talk and potentially they will walk. As Coach says, Never let your pride or ego dictate your next move. Joe Mullings www.amma.tv
2/18/04 8:13 AM
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rbradk
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Edited: 18-Feb-04
Member Since: 12/14/2002
Posts: 39
Excellent replies from all. The one part of this conflict that caught my attention was the statement "Don't get an attitude". To me, this showed a early withdrawl from NVP & Tac-Comm. The easiest way to eliminate a potential enemy is to turn him into a potential ally. Tom,Dana,and Mike touched on this. Choice speach isn't always easy....but it's easier in the long run rather than spanking someone. The one thing that you do not want to happen is to have this guy know that he can draw you into a conflict when he feels like it. You will always catch more ants with honey...instead of vinegar. Brad Kocka
2/18/04 10:41 PM
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JoeSk
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Edited: 18-Feb-04
Member Since: 08/29/2002
Posts: 2
Here is two thoughts maybe not relevent to this situation, but maybe they will be or to one similar. Was your daughter with you or was she at the apartment while you were at the supermarket? Secondly, You stated you were home for less than ten minutes. What if someone had broken into your apartment and that was the noise he had heard. Coach's response had one point that I wonder how important we really understand to ourselves. That is how much thought we have given to in the creation, guidance and application of our personal directive. It seems to me to be one of the most important keys to the entire mental/emotional side of Personal Defense Readiness. Joe Skovira
2/22/04 6:25 PM
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Kerri
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Edited: 22-Feb-04
Member Since: 03/07/2003
Posts: 18
What would be wrong with saying "All right, buddy, I'll try and keep it down." ? The end. Close the door.
2/23/04 9:46 PM
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mAnyStylEs
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Edited: 23-Feb-04
Member Since: 05/09/2003
Posts: 42
A lot of interesting responses, thank you. In response: sudbrink, "Done better ? Start with peripheral vision maybe ? (ie looking at chin or chest)" Couldn't do it. I needed him to see I wasn't afraid of him. My first line of defense was for him to see that in my eyes. They say a lot. GaryK' "In any event, don't beat YOURSELF up looking at what did/didn't happen or what COULD have happened. The truth is always revealed in the outcome, and you, your daughter and your A-HOLE neighbor are safe." Thanks. My daughter is my main concern. TSA, "However, that doesn't mean you cannot use the experience to role play other possible choices and out comes good and bad. For example choice speech options "Whoa, I can understand how you feel. I would be upset too, but I have been away all day so I could not have been disturbing you." " Your right! I keep looking back on the situation and realised, my speech could have much better. It seems as though I came off ready or even wanting to fight. I learned for the next time. taroson, "If it were me I would use a little of what Tom (or was it Dana) suggested and be courteous and polite. Find out what his name is and create some communication. If you can make peace with this guy, well, thats a good thing considering he lives near you and you may have to deal with him in the future. The last thing you and your daughter need is a hostile neighbor." Well, he claims to be a neighbor, but I found out he's just a boyfriend or such to the women downstairs. Who, incidentally, has called the cops on me because I play with my daughter. I can't help the noise. She's a child. It's never later then 8:30-9:00 when we're playing. Hab, "It is impossible to judge just from quotes how the confrontation itself went. It looks promising. You were presentminded. The trained response was there for you when you needed it. You have a distinct sensation from that encounter which you can recall in training when roleplaying, and thus get more out of it. You are no doubt even better prepared for the next one." Exactly, how I feel. I've grown from the experience and will have a more tactful handle of it, next time. cont'd
2/23/04 9:46 PM
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mAnyStylEs
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Edited: 23-Feb-04
Member Since: 05/09/2003
Posts: 43
cont'd Tony Blauer, "The implication here is that you might have fought had your daughter not been there....why?" My daughter wasn't there, but good point. If I'd had no daughter I probably would have made a mistake. Not thinking! "Food for thought." You serve a hell of a meal. Very good points. "In other words did you telegraph preparedness, even subtly? Perhaps that explains his continued hostility...perhaps he reacted to 'danger close'...all this stuff happens at the unconscious level." I did, but the whole time, he kept his right hand in his pants pocket. I didn't know what to expect. His left hand flailing around as to distract me? Maybe or maybe not. I couldn't take that chance. His hand in the pocket indicated a strong posturing gesture too me. "As I stated earlier Im glad nothing happened for your daughter's sake, but there are a lot of nuances that many people dont see or identify that account for reasons we all get too close to violence. If you're seriously looking for my opinion, if you were a private student of mine, I just shared with you what I'd have said and your thread title "Correct Response?" semantically speaking should be reworded as "Correct Result?" and I wholeheartedly agree." Thanks, Tony. I may not say much on your forum, but I always gain knowledge from you and everybody who posts here. I hope I have contributed the same for people who post and lurk, as I do. rbradk, "The one thing that you do not want to happen is to have this guy know that he can draw you into a conflict when he feels like it. You will always catch more ants with honey...instead of vinegar." Interesting. I agree. JoeSk, "Was your daughter with you or was she at the apartment while you were at the supermarket?" She was not with me at all. Kerri, "What would be wrong with saying "All right, buddy, I'll try and keep it down." ?" Nothing. I just sensed attitude as soon as I came to the door. But, as, rbradk, said " to have this guy know that he can draw you into a conflict when he feels like it". I can't justify what I did. He just seemed to be testing me. Once someone sees they can hord you, then they always will. I just wanted him to know that I wasn't afraid of him. He seen that in my eyes, because his eyes told me so. Thanks, fellas
2/23/04 10:29 PM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 24-Feb-04 08:49 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 731
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Beautiful replies...this makes the energy well worth the forum... Often I post here and my PDR coaches post with nary a thanks... We dont need people to agree or disagree, simply to weigh & consider..an occaisonal "Thanks, Ill think about that." Only thing I prefer is for people to use their real names, alias' diminish the total experience of helping out a complete stranger :-) Lastly, something I learned raising three kids, mostly in apartments/ duplexes: Go knock on your neighbor's door, the girl, introduce yourself & your daughter, apologize for any irritation (be holding your daughter) say to her: "I know you cant remember when you were her age, I cant but we all ran around like this jumping and dancing, I wanted you to meet her so when you hear the noise you see the face of a child just enjoying life." I did something like that once and it was quite interesting. I also did it in reverse once...where I was the recipient of the rumble...there was a kid up stairs from me destined to be a world-class sprinter :-) I went up alone, knocked on the door and asked to meet the kid, the mother was shocked and embarassed and started apologizing, I said the above in reverse, she was speechless the kid (6 or 7) clueless and I went back downstairs. He still ran but it didnt bother me nearly as much after I reminded myself that it was a kid not a 'noise' :-) More food for thought. TOny
2/24/04 7:45 AM
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JMullings
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Edited: 24-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/31/2002
Posts: 232
Magic stuff :) Joe M
2/24/04 11:05 AM
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DannyE
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Edited: 24-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 35
This has been a classic, in-depth, 'PDR' lesson! Very nice. Danny
2/24/04 12:38 PM
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Time
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Edited: 24-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 15
WOW, Great posts everyone. It really makes you sitback and think. Pat Berter
2/24/04 1:01 PM
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Adam LaClair
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Edited: 24-Feb-04
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 1436
ImposeYourWill.com

Great thread, with some really interestig posts!!

Ingenious tactic on introducing the "noise" as a real person/child, Tony!  You are so right - it is NOT just a "noise," but a living, breathing person just doing what they do.  Thanks for pointing that out!  I've had times (and likely will again) where that could be applied quite usefully.  :-)

Adam

2/25/04 1:29 AM
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taroson
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Edited: 25-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 84
Ms, Thanks for the question and the thoughtful follow up. It is wonderful to get so many perspectives and especially the detailed responses that Tony gives us all to learn from. In the end, we are all students and I think everyone learned a lot from this thread. This is what I love about the PDR system and Tony Blauer. Thanks to all. Mike

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