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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Who wins 3 elite cops or 1 MMA


2/15/04 8:13 PM
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xytrack
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Edited: 15-Feb-04 08:23 PM
Member Since: 04/25/2003
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I was called a "fucking idiot" for saying 3 trained "Elite" cops could (without weapons) take an unarmed Vanderlei Silva into custody 10 out of 10 times. Check out the "Who would you want with you in a dark alley" thread. My point was 3 - 6ft 200 lb officers coming from 3 different angles at the same time would win over any MMA'er. Check the thread and I got a little pissed off at the name calling but wanted to get an educated opinion from this thread. A dark alley is not the same as a controlled cage/ring environment but try telling that to those folks. Thoughts? (PS the thread is on the UG)
2/15/04 10:56 PM
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taroson
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Edited: 15-Feb-04
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xytrack, I'll go over to the UG later just to see what was written, but to be quite honest I grow weary of the "a vs b," who would win? stuff that I see over there all the time. It's fun I guess, but childish. If V. Silva or King Kong or whoever wants to walk down the wrong side of the Law, they will go down. Period. The Cops have weapons and are trained as to how and when to use them. If they needed them and the situation dictated it, they would use them. If three unarmed were not enough, then they would use four or six. Bottom line is the Bad Guy would go to jail or worse. I agree the street is not the ring and so these kinds of comparisons really just don't make sense. I mean, it just doesn't really make sense to compare the cops to MMA. One SWAT sniper could wipe out an entire fight card at a UFC... See what I mean. The whole excercise seems like a waste of time and energy. I hope you know I mean no disrespect, it's just that the two worlds have very little to do with one another. The point is that you need to know what you are training for. Hope that made sense. I'll jump over there and see what was written. Take Care, Mike
2/15/04 11:39 PM
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xytrack
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Edited: 15-Feb-04
Member Since: 04/25/2003
Posts: 992
Mike, You are right on point and I take no offense at all. I agree 100% with your statement. The guy instigating it said on another thread he has felonies and I think it was more of a he doesn't like law enforcement thing. It started out as who you would want to walk with you down a dark alley. They named some fighters etc and I pointed out I would want a SWAT or SF with me. Come to find out the alley they were talking about was a "safe" dark alley with no weapons or criminals like a boxing ring. I made the mistake of trying to explain the difference. They then said that without the badge and weapons, 3 elite officers would be KTFO and the fearless MMA fighter would have just a bruise on his knee. It went downhill from there, but having been the in MMA most of my life (Wrestled and martial arts), my eyes were opened by a career as part of the thin blue line. I know for a fact me and two of our best would/could subdue any one our size even without weapons. It is like Basketball, me and a couple of friends would kill MJ in a pick up game. Law enforcment has proven the overwhelming force theory and has some very mentally and physically tough individuals. It was kind of a waste of time arguing about it. Take care
2/16/04 12:13 AM
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FJJ828
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Edited: 16-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1090
NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C.
Kind of a tired question. One that has been beaten to death in various forms over the last few years. I imagine that the average SWAT cop who does not train MMA or combatives, would have a lot of trouble against a trained fighter (1 on 1, no weapons, touch gloves, come out fighting, one fall-ten minute time limit, no holds barred, blah-blah-blah). Three on one seems like it might even it up a bit. But it would depend on the day of the week, the time and weather. SWAT cops are better fighters on Sunday morning at 3:15am in a light drizzle, 65-68 degrees.
2/16/04 3:58 AM
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Hab
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Edited: 16-Feb-04 07:49 AM
Member Since: 05/27/2003
Posts: 117
VS would in my mind probably tactically win that single fight. However, as one say, the beast must sleep. The thing about police is not the individual capabilities, but the institution they represent. They will up the ante until you are in cuffs and they will inevitably get you in cuffs. So, like a poisonous frog, the cop need to advocate this predicament to the person being detained prior to the cop being injured. So if VS understand the stakes, and the inevitable outcome (you don't fight the cops), then he would probably not resist. ------- PS I think also the UFC fighters realize the predicament regarding taking MMA to the streets. AFAIK only the Gracies take the bar fights to the ground and only in packs. PPS Some people have very romantic notions about what mysticism remains. Like the capabilities of a police officer being member of SWAT. Just what do you think he is trained for? To handle less capable people in a tactical and safe manner or handle an immensily more capable professional fighter? If he was successfully tackled, then things would probably change, but the conditioning, mobility, strength, technique and speed is totally unmatched by the officers. You see, you present a scenario in which a fight is declared in advance. If you would instead be asking me who I would rather have by my side in a crowded bar when things turn ugly, it would be the three SWAT officers. Much of Blauers teaching addresses, AFAIK, how to properly implement your delivery system into a self preservation system. To maintain available transitions into the possible outcomes and present generic axioms that apply to most situational templates. To be proactive without introducing new danger, to be prepared without being provocative, to focus on the result etc. When a fight is declared and people are facing eachother preparing to square off unarmed, the experience from the ring is applicable to the situation. And I think you do not actually understand how well trained these guys are. If Royce Gracie grabbed your arm hard, you would have marks to show for later on just from his grip. The professional fights may seem static and very unapplicable to the street fighting, but none of us would survive in that situation against any one of them. The reason they don't rip eachother to shreds is because they are BOTH trained so well. They are tremendously strong and quick. If you have a VERY GOOD hook shot or something, then you might think you can strike the jackpot, but I think the fight you are talking about would look very much like VS moving quicker and more aggressive than any of the enemies. Anybody taking a swing or attempting a takedown would be wacked or ducked and THEN wacked. It's like you compare a cop car with a formula 1 car. And your backyard alley fight you have just presented us with a straight, broad and flat track. It may not be the professional circuit, but close enough. A standup fight in a backalley may not be the Octagon, but close enough.
2/16/04 9:59 AM
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taroson
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Edited: 16-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 81
Ok. Here's a quick scenario. The three highly trained officers encounter an enraged Silva. He has to go to jail. They take good position with one officer on each side and the third directly in front, doing most of the talking... But wait. He is a big MMA fan and knows who Silva is. He begins talking to Silva about some of his fights and asks about his training, future, etc., etc. The officer explains that Silva will have to go with them, but that he will make sure that he gets a lawyer, will watch him through the booking process and that the whole thing will be over in a few hours. The officer jokes that Silva will be out and back on the street before he can write up his report. (Which is really not a joke.) Silva thinks about his career, trusts the officer, allows the cuffs to be put on and goes to jail. Way too boring for the UG, but I'll bet quite a few of the folks reading the M.E. could pull it off. Take Care, Mike
2/16/04 1:52 PM
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TopCop
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Edited: 16-Feb-04
Member Since: 03/28/2003
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Mike, Great response! That is exactly what I would do and have actually done on the street. Your right, it is boring, but they are going to jail and I am going home! Chad
2/16/04 6:26 PM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 16-Feb-04 07:06 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Nice Mike... 1. Know you objective 2. Know your opponent (when possible) 3. NVP 4. Theory of Rapport 5. Pressure Cooker Theory 6. Choice Speech: Consience & Accountabilty Mike, explain to the reading audience what you did using PDR Essentials :-) Tony
2/16/04 11:33 PM
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taroson
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Edited: 16-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 82
Basically I was creating a scenario to contrast our PDR training with those who may be locked into going physical as an answer to everything. Its a mindset problem. Everything on the list is present although the NVP is only implied. The real point was to demonstrate how effective Verbal/Choice speech skills are for de-escalating and resolving confrontations. The Directive that Tony uses and I have adopted as my own says, When faced with the threat of attack, I will do what I can to avoid the confrontation with as little violence occurring to both myself and my attacker. The last thing we want to do is fight. We want to beat the street fighter, not be the street fighter. (That came from one of the old ads for the 10 Street fighting Guides, which later evolved into PDR Manual). Tony teaches that, Those who talk can be persuaded to walk. Having more tools gives you more options. We are taught to train for all kinds of force options including, Verbal Defuse, Stun and run, Stun and Control all the way up to Defend with extreme prejudice. In the scenario the objective was met and no one got hurt. I knew the LEOs would like it. There is a lot more to Personal Defense than front kicks and left hooks. (Although they have their place.) Thats really what the post was about. Take Care, Mike
2/17/04 1:50 AM
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xytrack
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Edited: 17-Feb-04
Member Since: 04/25/2003
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Guys, Great comments and if you read the post I said Vanderlei would call his lawyer and go willingly. I also pointed out street confrontations should be avoided at all costs. On the other hand, I have trained MMA all my life and tested myself against the elite and wasn't far off. I also knew and worked with some other SWAT bretheren who compete in MMA and with those to on each arm, Vanderlei Silva would take a nap. This would occur even if he knew it was coming. The discussion was 3 of our best. I have had the opportunity to see how I would do in the me against him scenario many times. I was usually the only one left a few blocks and fences into the pursuit and proactive units going after the worst of the worst. Don't sell yourselves short, I have fought cops (in training) and then helped them fight in the street and it is two different animals. You guys fight a hell of a lot harder when it counts and GET IT DONE EVERYTIME!!! As many in the hood and prison know.
2/17/04 4:17 AM
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Hab
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Edited: 17-Feb-04
Member Since: 05/27/2003
Posts: 123
Mike said what I tried to say above the dotted line, albeit he did illustrate it better. Guess it did not stand out enough. What is "M.E"? As in "but I'll bet quite a few of the folks reading the M.E. could pull it off"
2/17/04 7:37 AM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 17-Feb-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 723
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Had, M.E. stands for Mental Edge, which was the original name of this forum from its inception, it has stuck throughout... Hab, I need you to email me at tony@tonyblauer.com thanks Tony
2/17/04 3:09 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 17-Feb-04
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Great posts Mike! Chuck
2/17/04 10:22 PM
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taroson
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Edited: 17-Feb-04 11:25 PM
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Thanks Chuck! Hab, I apologize about not getting back to you on the M.E. thing. I got caught up in life away from the keyboard. Tony, I want to thank you publically for all you have done for me. I am by nature a slow learner and I know that it must be frustating for you that it takes so long for some of us to 'get it' and it's even harder at times to stay with it. I suffer from the curse of the average. Still with all that being said, I have been able to teach and do seminars both privately and to large audiences because of what I have learned from you. By keying into your Cycle of Behavior, Performance Enhancement Psychology and Meta Cognitive principles, I've been able to pull of some pretty amazing stuff. I'm not going to go into detail, but rest assured, there is NO way I could have done it without your curriculmn, coaching and patience. It's all about owning the material by reading, studying and most importantly, applying the knowledge. I hope people don't get the impression we are just trying to sell tapes here. When I make a video or audio suggestion it's because I know that at least the seeds of the answer or action to be taken are there for the taking. TCMS and PDR materials can be used to solve confrontations and deal with fear at every level. There is so much more there than just learning to "kick ass". Enough. Life away from the keyboard is calling again. Take Care All, Mike
2/18/04 8:20 AM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 18-Feb-04
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Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Thank you Mike... Tony
3/2/04 12:19 PM
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tac364
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Edited: 02-Mar-04
Member Since: 04/21/2003
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Mike - awesome response...not the usual "what if" but the "how"! Call it verbal judo,choice speech, of just talking the man down - I love it.
3/9/04 4:41 AM
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jonpall
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Edited: 09-Mar-04
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I would think that, in general, if you're going to defeat 3 people, you'd have to be at least 3 times better than the best one of them. But I'm only guessing.
3/21/04 11:13 AM
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Mayweedz
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Edited: 21-Mar-04
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Depends on the three cops. Some "elite" cops can wrestle, some do BJJ, some do boxing; although most are not likely to be exeptional. Some "elite" cops have very little hand to hand training. It's a toss up for me. With mace and a batton, 3 most likely could. Without their normal tools I am not sure. Police of any calibur are not specifically trained at any great extent to apprehend highly violent criminals hand to hand to hand. They are usually taught to go for mace and the batton since that is the smart thing to do. Anything they learn on the side is up to them. I'm sure that you could handpick 3 cops who are good at MMA that could arrest Silva 3 vs 1. But that is really just saying that you could find 3 good and skilled MMA'r who could control Silva, which goes without saying. But I'm sure if you picked 3 SWAT individuals at random most of them are not MMA competitors and some are a little older and some are young with less experience. It could still be done if they were smart about it, but it most likely would not be easy. Would Silva hypothetically just stand there if he knew 3 cops were coming and let them surround him so he could fight them all at once (especially if he knew that more cops were on the way. The situation is not in a cage, I think most smart individuals would either give up, flee, or hit one guy and flee. What's up with the silly hypothetical questions anyways. Hypothetically what if one or two or five of Silva's training buddies happen to be in a restaurant next to the alley and sees what is happening. Hypothetically do the 3 cops survive 6 Mauy Thai fighters beating on them if they were stupid enough to go into a dark alley without their tools to apprehend Silva before more cops arrive. Hypothetically speaking of course.
3/22/04 1:17 AM
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xytrack
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Edited: 22-Mar-04
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The thread was about a dark alley. I thought it went without saying the "tools of the trade" would be present as the criminals have theirs. They then said there were no weapons in the alley. It ended up being, these guys were upset that no matter how much they trained it didn't matter and that if they screwed up, the thin blue would get it done.... Most that were protesting were admitted felons.... I agreed with post. I know many who train MMA and I know I could pick 2 and take a confirmed unarmed combatant. Remember, 'no rules', just go home to family....
3/24/04 9:11 AM
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Jayhof
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Edited: 24-Mar-04
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Sorry to see and post so late to this thread. In our jurisdiction (10th judicial district in TN) we had a situation involving three officers, not very well trained and a MMA'er. The MMA'er called me when I hosted Helio Soneca at a seminar. He told me about his entire MMA resume. In short, at some later date, he picked a fight at a bar with three off duty officers. He was the bouncer. The manager pulled him off the officers three times. Then, the manager let him fight the officers. He later told me if he wants to get his ass kicked, let'im! They pulverized him. He came to the academy about three days later, battered and bruised. We really haven't seen him since.
4/27/04 1:03 AM
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SeanWiley
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Edited: 27-Apr-04 12:58 AM
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Depends on who you're talking about, I like what Mayweedz said: what exactly is an "elite" cop... you know an over the hill boxer would probably beat 3 typical troopers 9 out of 10 times on his terms. if 3 people surprise attack you with weapons drawn (cops' usual terms) then it changes, but a face off between one 245 pound trained warrior vs. 3 off duty cops? Nah I don't think 3 cops would handle Tank or Kimo let alone a really strong, roided, hard punching mma champ... And there have been much larger men than 6'0 200 pounds who have gone down and out from a single hard punch to the face, just think if the good mma guy gets one cop immediately ko'ed and pulls his gun out... I think this scenario would end with the cops shooting him because they would have no other choice. Again this applies to elite athletes and fighters, if you have ever seen the kinds of strength and force they can apply plus what it takes to put one down and out without using technology you'll agree. the strength difference alone is like man versus boy... do you think 3 pubescent boys could take on a single 250 pound man in really good shape? Probably not. They might pull something off but probably not.
5/15/04 2:40 AM
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xytrack
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Edited: 15-May-04
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Posts: 1360
It was 3 of our best, not 3 of the ones some of my female black belts would kick their ass even without TMA's. Calling our best "pubescent" boys means you must not have trained with the best of the best.
5/16/04 9:39 PM
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SeanWiley
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Edited: 16-May-04
Member Since: 12/01/2003
Posts: 41
Cops in general are not fighters, nor are they particularly strong. The 3 cops in this hypothesis, are they 3 guys who are at an elite strength level and at least purple/brown belts in bjj with some boxing experience? If so, then they would probably be able to take out almost any single man. If they are typical swat guys or other "elite" cops who do not have specific bjj skills and elite strength levels, then I would say they'd need serious help taking down someone like the afforementioned mma champ. What do you mean your "best"? Are your best guys bjj experts with immense strength and conditioning? Post the stats of your typical elite cop in your hypothesis.
5/25/04 8:18 PM
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SeanWiley
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Edited: 25-May-04
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Actually you are incorrect. 3 on one is not an automatic win. Not by a long shot. Many, many people have beaten 2 or 3 guys up at once, especially if they have immense strength advantages. A minimum of training is not going to make up for a huge strength and mass difference if the other guy has reasonably good training. Tim Sylvia could beat 2 or 3 typical men up 9 times out of 10. Magnus Samuelsson could beat 3 normal men up just raging out on them and throwing tank abbot style punches, slamming them and using his blue belt level bjj. 3 people are not always going to win just because of 3 on 1. Against normal folks yes, against strong, huge fighters no, it would depend on a lot of factors, primarily surprise and the use of weapons. Just to give you an idea, my dad is a bigger man than average, when I was 12 years old I remember, he beat 3 men up in a bar fight. On another occasion he beat 2 men up. One tried to use a pool cue on him. It didn't help. People who are really big and can just brawl, will beat up 2 or 3 normal men sometimes. So it would stand to reason that someone with truly elite strength and skills would demolish 2 or 3 normal guys more often than not, the 3 guys would have to come up with a plan, use surprise, and get some weapons or learn how to use bjj (2 guys surprise the one elite, grab both his arms and pull guard, the 3rd jumps on his back and attempts to sink the rear naked choke). Just left to natural instincts and no weapons, 2 or 3 guys might as well stand in line to get knocked out or slammed.
5/26/04 3:25 PM
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JMullings
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Edited: 26-May-04
Member Since: 01/31/2002
Posts: 265
As amusing as these "what if" threads are. They are also a bit annoying. They often go to the range of "My dad could beat up your dad" or "What if the MMA guy has a Light Sabre?" You get the idea...and it goes on from there. Tony made a statement once that really stuck with me as I teach and train. "Its not how dangerous or well trained the person is......its what he or she is willing to do" Joe M.

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