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TMA UnderGround >> Karate styles


3/16/04 1:23 PM
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khd29
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Edited: 16-Mar-04 03:42 PM
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There are a bunch of them out there. what are the differences of each style.. to me it looks all the same?
3/17/04 12:03 PM
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NowhereMan22000
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Edited: 17-Mar-04 12:12 PM
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Wow, such a simple question yet such a complicated answer.

I'm going to give a very long winded answer to see if I still remember my history...

Karate developed on the island of Okinawa hundreds of years ago (it was then called the Kingdom of Ryukyu). There was an indigineous martial art called 'ti' which came under Chinese influence (primarily when a Chinese called Kusanku visited Okinawa, and also due to Okinawans who had studied Chinese boxing) and then developed into a martial art called 'Tode'.

In the late 1800s/early 1900s tode was systematised and introduced into the Okinawan schools system by a man called Itosu. Around 1920, an Okinawan called Gichin Funakoshi demonstrated tode in Japan. He ended up staying there and what now became known as 'karate' began to be taught. The karate directly traceable to Funakoshi is called 'Shotokan'. Various other forms ('Ryu') include Wado-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Shito-Ryu. There are also a range of Okinawan martial arts under the Karate umbrella: Goju-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu and Isshin-Ryu being the largest.

Apart from the Okinawan/Japanese karate, there are Korean martial arts which often come under the term 'Korean Karate': Tang-soo-do and Tae-Kwon-Do. Mention of any link between Japanese karate and the Korean arts to TKD/TSD practitioners has been known to cause big arguments!

See http://101.24fightingchickens.com/02_karate.html for a description of the differences between the major styles.

Not mentioned is Kyokushinkai which is a very hard knockdown style.

3/17/04 1:25 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 17-Mar-04
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I believe karate originally meant "china hand", not "empty hand"
3/17/04 1:30 PM
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khd29
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Edited: 17-Mar-04
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Thanks for the site, very useful. There are 2 dojos by me that I am very interested in taking. One is Shorin-ryu and the other is Kyokushin. I think I saw the Shorin-Ryu dojo teach weapons at the upper brown belt levels. I am not qiute sure about the Kyokushin. Need some advice if you don't mind. They seem to train the same way. Pardon my ignorance.
3/17/04 2:50 PM
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tjmitch
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Edited: 17-Mar-04
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If you are looking for a school, go to both and see what they have to say. Also, dont be afraid to ask questions. If you are looking for a school that does alot of sparring, ask if they spar, how often, is it point sparring, etc. Watch some classes in each school, see what they do if it seems like something you would be interested in. Talk to some of the studetns, get a feel for what they are like.
3/17/04 3:24 PM
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damaebushi
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Edited: 17-Mar-04 03:20 PM
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There are also many styles under the Shorin Ryu umbrella. All trace their lineage back to Matsumura Kiyo (commonly known by his title "Bushi"). He had many students, some of whom founded their own schools. That is why there is more than one style that uses Shorin Ryu in their name. The styles vary a bit, but should be identifiably similar. They should definitely include kobudo (weapons) in their curriculum. They will probably also have quite a bit of striking with both the hands and feet, some joi nt locking (known as tuite), perhaps some conditioning drills, maybe some sparring, and possibly even a bit of grappling. Pressure points may be taught, too. Any Shorin Ryu dojo should have a very in depth curriculum and usually takes a long time to bec ome fluent in, but it is well worth it. I have never trained Kyokushin, but from what I have been told and seen, it is a very good style (they all can be if taught correctly) that does a lot of hard sparring, mostly striking, and I believe in competition they do not punch to the head. I could be wrong, as I said, and anyone else can feel free to correct me. The best advice has already been given in previous posts, that is, to watch both dojos, ask any questions that come to mind, see what looks and feels like it suits you best, then go for it. Best wishes. Respectfully: Fred "
3/17/04 8:07 PM
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NowhereMan22000
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Edited: 17-Mar-04
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I've only the briefest of training encounters with kyokushin and shorin-ryu guys. Kyohushin don't seem to place as much emphasis on kata, but a lot more on conditioning and are renowned for their full contact (no gloves) fighting. As far as I know, full contact fighting is required, at least for black belt and above. It is the toughest of the major karate types. Search for '100 man kumite' and be amazed! The only real problem with this style is the lack of punching to the head which can make for some weird looking full contact fights. Still, I'd back an average kyukushin guy against any shotokan guy of the same level (shotokan is my style). Bet I'd win a kata competition against one though!
3/18/04 6:24 AM
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NowhereMan22000
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Edited: 18-Mar-04
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Wishful thinking I'm afraid. So many TMAs mysteriously 'rediscovered' ground fighting after the first couple of UFCs. Yeah, you might learn some when doing 'instructor training in Japan' like the guy in the article, but that's from Judo/Jiu Jitsu, not shotokan. All TMAs SHOULD do groundfighting, of course.
3/19/04 1:33 AM
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Punisher73
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Edited: 19-Mar-04
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but that's from Judo/Jiu Jitsu, not shotokan. Actually, some of the throws that Kano included in Judo were learned from Funakoshi (okinawan karate). It used to be a part long ago. It was more designed as groundfighting and getting right back up, not the wrestling/grappling like BJJ though.
3/19/04 5:34 AM
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NowhereMan22000
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Edited: 19-Mar-04
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"Actually, some of the throws that Kano included in Judo were learned from Funakoshi (okinawan karate). " This would surprise me, if true. I have Funakoshi's books (including the rare Karate Jitsu from 1925) and it is quite obvious that throwing techniques were a part of his repertoire. There are 6 'throwing' techniques shown in his 1925 book. Funakoshi introduced (i.e. first demonstrated) karate in Tokyo in 1922. However, Kano founded the Kodokan in 1882. The basic techniques (gokyo no waza) were set down in 1895 and revised in 1920. Some techniques were added after 1920 (shimmeisho no waza), but I can't see how any of them were due to Funakoshi (they seem to have been added much later). Well, I'm neither a karate nor judo expert, nor a historian, but I haven't heard about Kano learning throws from Funakoshi. Any sources?
3/19/04 12:00 PM
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Punisher73
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Edited: 19-Mar-04
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NowWhereMan: I tried to find where I originally read that and can't find it. Must be a bad memory of what I thought I read. What I did find said that Kano learned some striking from Funakoshi and incorporated that. Another said that Funakoshi never even went with Kano and trained at all. So everything I found either way contradicted other stuff. What I can support though is that the Bubishi and Karate has throws and takedowns in it that are comparable to some of the throws in Judo/Jujitsu.
3/26/04 7:49 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 26-Mar-04
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The style of Karate I studied was derived form Kyokushinkai. In fact my teacher's teacher (Ashihara) was a student under Mas Oyama (actually one of his better students and fighters). Kyokushinkai is an extremely tough style. It is very much into conditioning and much of the training is center around fighting drills and sparring. Testing is essentially full contact. And testing for the black belt is one of the toughest full contact session. You have to fight 10 black or brown consecutively, 1 minute each, with about 1 minute rest between each. Very grueling. I've seen people get totally jacked up during these black belt tests. I'm talking broken jaws, missing teeth, and even knockouts. And I mean both the person testing for the black belt as well as those black and brown belt fighting the person testng for the black belt. Kyokushinkai is very popular in Europe and Japan. Alot of Japanese and European Muay Thai fighters and kickboxers have a background in Kyokushinkai karate. Bas Rutten has a black belt in Kyokushinkai and so does Gerad Goredeau (sp?)
3/28/04 2:34 PM
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sta94
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Edited: 29-Mar-04 09:39 AM
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yo khd29, I'm guessing you're talking about the Kyokushin school on 5th Avenue & 30th Street? They seem to be the main dojo for the Matsui-line of Kyokushinkai in North America. My cousin just started classes there last week (tried to get him started in Judo but he was looking for a kick-punch style). The head instructor, Gorai, seems like a nice guy, there are also several young Japanese competitors teaching there (seems like they're rotating between Japan, USA and Brazil). They organize the annual Americas Cup Kyokushinkai competition in June, usually at Hunter College, lots of international teams participate. So, as far as Kyokushinkai goes, this school seems like THE one to go to. Their site: http:// www.kyokushinkarate.com Of course, there are several other Kyokushin-derived dojos in Manhattan - Tadashi Nakamura's Seido Karate in 23rd Street & 6th Avenue (IIRC), Shigeru Oyama's Oyama Karate in the village. And then there is the rival faction Kyokushin Karate school in Sunnyside, Queens. As for the Shorin Ryu school, there are two that I know about - the one in Lex Ave, midtown and another in the 20s in 5th Ave or B'way, both are Matsubayashi Ryu, a friend of mine went to the midtwon dojo when he was a kid. They're really traditional - NO competitions (at least that's what the instructor told me when I went to check out the schoold a long time ago), doubt they have any free-sparring. If it was me, I'd go for the Kyokushin school, but then again that's just me.
3/29/04 12:43 PM
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khd29
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Edited: 29-Mar-04
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Hey, sta94! How have you been? Yeah, I was actually looking at the Midtown dojo (Shorin-Ryu). I visited them there a couple of times and they Sempai was cool. Gave me alot of info. Pretty cheap for a midtown dojo, too. The Kyokushin I visited was the one in the village. I met one of the instructors there, Javier, at work. I know he won the tournaments in his division a few times. Nice location, convenient to get to but a little pricey. How is the Matsui-line different from Shigeru's?
3/29/04 3:07 PM
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sta94
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Edited: 29-Mar-04
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Hey khd29, Here’s what I gather: There seems to be a large number of Kyokushin people who’ve broken away and formed their own styles, organizations, etc both prior to the founder, Mas Oyama’s death in 1994 and after his death. Shigeru Oyama was a high-ranking Kyokushin instructor who broke away in 1981 and formed the World Oyama Karate. Prior to him, Tadashi Nakamura, another high-ranking Kyokushin instructor based in NYC had done the same in 1976, founding Seido Karate. Then there is Joko Ninomiya’s Enshin Karate in Colorado (they organize the Sabaki Challenge), Shidokan in Chicago, Daido Juku, Seidokai, Ashihara, etc. All seem to have maintained the Kyokushin style hardcore training, conditioning and full-contact sparring format with slight variations. After Mas Oyama’s death, there was a big split in the IKO (International Karate Org – the official worldwide Kyokushin body), with Shokei Matsui, the man chosen by Mas Oyama as his successor, being challenged to the leadership position by several, older people. Thus there are now several rival IKO bodies, all professing to be the true Kyokushinkai. Last I heard, court case was dragging on. One of the other IKO bodies is even supported by Mas Oyama’s wife. The Matsui group are in control of the main Hombu dojo in Tokyo. This site contains a lot of Kyokushin info: http://www.australiankyokushin.com/ So, as for difference/similarities between Shigeru Oyama's and IKO Kyokushinkai, I'm guessing the training will be pretty similar with differences being more political than anything else. Also, being different organizations, the competitors from these two groups hardly ever meet in tournaments I guess.
4/13/04 8:49 AM
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ShiroRyu
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Edited: 13-Apr-04
Member Since: 09/13/2003
Posts: 145
I can never find a Kyokushin school in Miami let alone Florida. Can anyone hook me up? I searched all over the internet and no results.
7/10/04 9:12 PM
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shumy
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Edited: 10-Jul-04
Member Since: 07/07/2004
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Hello Everyone, Has anyone ever gone to or heard of the Ohan Brothers they run a Kyokushin school in Montreal, Canada...they are awesome !! Just wanted to know if anyone here knows of them...www.ohanbrothers.com Thanks!
8/10/04 7:10 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 10-Aug-04
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I know this thread is old but I think I can add something to it. I started training in Enshin Karate in september of 1990 under Joko Ninomiya. I competed in the Sabaki challenge from 1993 - 1996. I still practice this style but these days I concentrate mostly on Judo and Bjj. Enshin Karate, as stated earlier in this thread, is one of the many offshoot styles of Kyokushinkai Karate. Actually it derives from Ashihara's version of Kyokushinkai. Ashihara was close to Mas Oyama like Shigeru Oyama. Ashihara trained alot of fighters for the All Japan Kyokushin Full contact tournaments in Japan including Ninomiya. He really didn't develop a system of instruction or fighting while he was a kyokushinkai instructor/trainer BUT he did have a his own unique way of teaching and training fighters. This way turn into the Ashihara system which can about when he was expelled from the Kyokushinkai organization. Anyway to make a long story short there is a difference between the various Kyokushinkai derived styles mostly in strategy and in some degree technique. However there is a big similarity in overall training and conditioning. Nearly all the kyokushinkai derived styles "condition" the same way. Although Mas Oyama was the founder of and overseer of the Kyokushinkai organization his early students actually ran it. They are the ones who taught and trained the students and fighters. So alot of Kyokushinkai techniques and training methods actually derived from Mas Oyama's early students like Shigeru Oyama, Hideyuki Ashihara and even Dutchman and ex-Judoka Jon Bluming. Both Ashihara and Shigeru Oyama were influenced by boxing and Muay Thai so you see alot of that in their systems. Even in Enshin Karate which came from Ashihara (Ninomiya said that Ashihara was his only Karate teacher although he did train with Shigeru Oyama for a while in New York) has the same boxing and muay Thai influence with alot of Judo (Ninomiya was a long time Judo player before he begin Karate and actually continued to practice and compete in it even while he was training in Karate). The background of the instructor influenced how Kyokushinkai was taught and the techniques. So Shigeru Oyama taught differently from Ashihara. And ultimatel Ninomiya taught differently from those two. Even Ninomiya's instructor teach differently from him each has their own unique style. So there are similarities but there are some differences.
8/16/04 4:37 PM
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Herk
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Edited: 16-Aug-04
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Sorry to ask a dumb question, but where does Kenpo Karate fit in here? Specifically if a school claims to come from the Ed Parker lineage? How does it compare with Kyokushin? Thanks
8/16/04 5:30 PM
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m.g
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Herk, I don't think Ed Parker or Kenpo Karate fit anywhere in Kyokushinkai Karate. There is a Hawaiian connection. Bobby Lowe, who was a Hawaiian and also a friend/associate of Ed Parker, trained under Mas Oyama and represented the Kyokushinkai organization. Kyokushinkai is totally different from Kenpo Karate. Kyokushinkai as practice in Japan and Europe (where it is much more well-known then here in the states) is much more like Muay Thai then the more traditional Karate styles. Kenpo Karate is much closer to traditional Karate styles. Many of the European Muay Thai style Kickboxers have a background in Kyokushinkai Karate. Bas Rutten trained and studied Kyokushinkai as did Gerard Gordeau (sp?).
8/16/04 5:41 PM
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Herk
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Edited: 16-Aug-04
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Cool, thanks. Is American Kenpo Karate well respected? Meaning, is it effective, or has it evolved to McDojo status? I'm not trying to offend anyone, just asking. There is an American Kenpo school right near my house, so I was going to check it out, but I wanted the low down first. Thanks again.
8/17/04 4:13 PM
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m.g
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Herk, From what I've seen American Kenpo Karate is more or less similar to other traditional Karate styles. I wouldn't go as far to call it a "McDojo". I guess that really depends on the individual school. Different schools have different standards and practices. Not all schools are the same even in the same organization and system. One of my teacher's student ran his own school and even though he operated under my teachers Kyokushinkai system he still taught and trained his students differently from my teacher. How a school is operated depends on the teacher.
8/26/04 2:19 PM
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fokket
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Edited: 26-Aug-04
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Daido Juku's sparring rule is like NHB matches IIRC
4/25/05 11:46 AM
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khd29
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Edited: 09-Jul-06 08:02 PM
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4/25/05 1:02 PM
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khd29
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Edited: 09-Jul-06 08:02 PM
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