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TMA UnderGround >> Karate styles


7/9/06 10:21 AM
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khd29
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Edited: 09-Jul-06 08:01 PM
Member Since: 02/18/2003
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I decided to join the Kyokushin dojo on 30th Street here in NYC. Looked like a pretty good school, watched the practice and looked really tough. It was a very difficult decision because I really want to continue with judo but I don't think I can handle being dropped 4 ft.+ in the air right now. Damn, already an ikkyu, too. One day, I will be back. In the meantime, it will be Kyokushin. Thanks to sta94 for the info on this school and to everyone who contributed on this thread. Can anyone recommend Karate gis or Kyokushin embroided gis, equipment, etc.? They sell them is the dojo but would like other alternatives to buy from. Brands, etc. Thanks all.
7/10/06 10:22 PM
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khd29
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Edited: 10-Jul-06
Member Since: 02/18/2003
Posts: 4136
ttt
7/11/06 10:44 AM
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sta94
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Edited: 11-Jul-06
Member Since: 04/11/2002
Posts: 627
khd, these sites sell gis at a good price: http://www.karatedepot.com http://www.martialmart.com I've ordered from both and haven't had ay problems, though it was a while ago. My cousin ordered Macho-brand gis from one of them - nice gi. Karate gis usually cost a heck of a lot less than comparable judogis! Hey, and here's a kyokushin forum I found: http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/index.php Also, I think Kyokushin's official brand is ISAMI, at least that's what I see most guys wearing: http://www.isami.co.jp/english/index2.htm I hear ya about injuries and judo! my own injuries are really hampering my training as well ... so dude, do you plan on doing both kendo and karate?
8/2/06 8:21 AM
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khd29
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Edited: 02-Aug-06
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Posts: 4170
ttt UG'er asked about Kyokushin. Thought this would help.
8/2/06 11:40 AM
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Dark Knight
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Edited: 02-Aug-06 12:02 PM
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"Is American Kenpo Karate well respected? Meaning, is it effective, or has it evolved to McDojo status? I'm not trying to offend anyone, just asking. There is an American Kenpo school right near my house, so I was going to check it out, but I wanted the low down first." Any style can be a McDojo or not, it all depends on the instructor. I have seen guys who teach a Kenpo style but it looks like TKD because thats what makes money. Flashy, no contact, high energy... BJJ will be there, and right now all the McDojo's are adding BJJ to the classes. As far as Parker Kenpo, when he was in Hawaii he would take what he was taught and tried it on the streets. Keep in mind that the typical guy you get into a fight with has no training, so any training you have will give you an advantage. From this he started to design his own style. Parker always felt the style should be improved and his instructors are doing that today. It is similar to what JKD looked like prior to BJJ was added. Fast hands, complex movements, economy of motion. An example would be as your fighting some one with your right hand you palm them, as the hand passes the elbow strkes the hand flows down to a groin strike and since the elbow is below the chin raisse into an elbow to the chin, as he steps back extend out to a backfist. All quarter strikes. Most Kenpo schools have evolved and added more to the system since Parker died. Huk Planas is heavily influenced by stick fighting and spent a lot of time with Danny Inosanto. As with many styles, each instructor has their own way of seeing how to teach. The more realistic the training the better off you are. I have fought with Kenpo guys that are death on two feet and guys who shouldnt be blue belts let alone black belts. Check out Parkers books, they have a lot of insight into the style and fighting. A couple simple examples, these are drills but give you an idea. Five swords http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d_zaT5bvu8&mode=related&search= And at a demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_iO8FPwtuw&NR Parting wings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGcCttESA9A&mode=related&search= Snaping twig http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt6WEoXnkos&mode=related&search= Aother drill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hQzF1joXyM&NR
12/29/06 6:16 PM
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spc36
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Edited: 29-Dec-06
Member Since: 02/01/2004
Posts: 129
Anyone ever train in Shito-Ryu?
1/7/07 2:49 AM
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jimmyok
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Edited: 07-Jan-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 455
Doesn't Georges St. Pierre also have a kyokushin background?
1/8/07 8:10 AM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 08-Jan-07
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"Doesn't Georges St. Pierre also have a kyokushin background?" Yes he does. And he consider himself a kyokushin fighter as base for his standup. You can argue how true this is, since it was quite a while since he actually trained kyokushin (He started when very young and stopped training kyokushin when he was 16) nowdays he trains a kickboxing mix like every other MMA fighter), but that is how he feels about it. If you look at the shorts he wears to MMA fights, they have the kyokushin kanku logo on them :-)
2/7/08 9:47 AM
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dennis5
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Edited: 07-Feb-08
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ttt
2/7/08 11:20 AM
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Frogs
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Edited: 07-Feb-08
Member Since: 09/13/2002
Posts: 630
Both Frank Mir and Chuck Liddell have kenpo backgrounds, and neither tries to hide it.
2/11/08 2:28 PM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 11-Feb-08
Member Since: 09/21/2002
Posts: 777
whats the consensus on goju karate? It is one of the only karate styles where i live (in brampton, ontario, canada)... im iun the process of seeing if they emphasize the hard or soft aspect of it
2/11/08 4:34 PM
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dennis5
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Edited: 11-Feb-08
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Anyone know of/or train at a good reputable Karate school in Brooklyn NYC? Any help is appreciated, THANKS!
2/12/08 5:32 AM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
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"Anyone know of/or train at a good reputable Karate school in Brooklyn NYC"

http://www.jukukarate.com/ is a brooklyn based kyokushin school with fairly good rep. It is a bit small, though, with limited training times. There are many better and larger ones in NYC, but since you restrict yourself to Brooklyn, this is about it when it comes to good schools.
2/12/08 7:03 AM
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Dark Knight
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
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I have been doing the Martial Arts since the late 70"s. (we believed crazy crap back then) I have met excellent fighters in most styles. It is how you train. You can argue ground game (have it, dont have it) but training realistically is what matters.
2/12/08 8:28 AM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 12-Feb-08 08:33 AM
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" whats the consensus on goju karate?"

Goju ryu karate is a fine style, if trained right.
Many dojos and organization either go in for the no-contact sparring or for the "we dont spar, we are a martial art, not a martial sport" bullcrap.
But if it is a good school, Goju is a very good choice.

Look for Irikumi kumite, irikumi=continuous sparring (go irikumi =Hard continuous fighting =go for a KO) (ju Irikumi = soft continous sparring= Dont KO, only go semicontact).
you might also look for bogu kumite (=full contact continous fighting, but wearing helmets, body armor etc etc).
If they only do WKF/WUKO rules kumite (light/no contact sparring, stopping and restarting after each hit) you have to decide if it is what you want. I prefer continous full contact fighting -but not everyone do.

Look for the traditional goju karate Weight training requirements (or modern equivalents). Make sure the dojo is equipped with lots of pads and hanging bags.
Ask them if they object to students competing in kickboxing.
Avoid them if they walk around in clown gi´s (multicolored/multi-patterned training uniform, often covered in patches). It is not a sure sign of a McDojo, but it is a very common warning.
Avoid them if they mix adult and children classes. The aduls training always suffers greatly from mixed classes.

Ask to see a few training sessions for the advanced students, and a few sparring sessions, to get a good idea of what they do there. If they dont allow it -walk away. If they dont break a sweat during training -walk away. If the majority seems physically unfit in the advanced classes -walk away.
2/12/08 10:48 AM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
Member Since: 09/21/2002
Posts: 781
thanks Kolsyrade.. i emailed the local goju dojo to see what they say..i found a kyokushin dojo but its a hour drive, i may have to resort to that :S Can you use throws and sweeps in kyokushin? Ive never seen any takedowns in all the videos ive wtached. It seems liek the just box up with e.o and go at it. I dont see why so much attention has been given to this martial art.
2/12/08 12:13 PM
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dennis5
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
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THANKS Kols!
2/12/08 12:42 PM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 12-Feb-08 01:39 PM
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"Can you use throws and sweeps in kyokushin? Ive never seen any takedowns in all the videos ive wtached. It seems liek the just box up with e.o and go at it."

Sweeps are perfectly allowed, and you can theoretically score half a point by punching a opponent after you have sweapt them. But it is very hard to actually get points for it.

<object width="425" height="355"> <param value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yWki6u2uqPs&amp;rel=1" name="movie" /> <param value="transparent" name="wmode" /></object>

Throws where you grab the opponent are not allowed in kyokushin competitions (not the throw specifically, but you are not allowed to grab the opponent -so most throws are a bit hard to do), but several offshots dont have that rule . Throwing off all sorts are normal part of competition in some kyokushin offshots like ashihara and enshin karate


" I dont see why so much attention has been given to this martial art."

Because kyokushin guys fight and train hard, and have a rep for proving themselves in the ring.
If you cannot kick/punch hard, or cannot take powershots or have bad conditioning, you can get away with it in light contact fights, or if you are wearing bodyarmor. But you cannot get away with it in bareknuckle knockdown karate. And to advance in kyokushin you have to fight knockdown sparring. It is not a optional extra. It is what the style is all about.
Some claim that kyokushin creates flawed fighters because they dont compete with punches to the head -causing bad self defense habits. That may be so, even if the same could be said about any sport rules system banning certain technique sets. But NOONE disputes that kyokushin creates fighters that are tough as nails, can take a lot of punishment without slowing down and dish out even more in return.

Kyokushin is not superior in technique to other styles of karate. It is however consistent in that it is always tough and physically requiring, and creates fighters that can actually fight. Knockdown creates a quality control that is missing in most other trad styles/organization.
2/12/08 2:29 PM
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sta94
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
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"Because kyokushin guys fight and train hard, and have a rep for proving themselves in the ring ...... Kyokushin is not superior in technique to other styles of karate. It is however consistent in that it is always tough and physically requiring, and creates fighters that can actually fight. Knockdown creates a quality control that is missing in most other trad styles/organization. "

AMEN TO THAT!!! Couldn't be said better.

2/12/08 5:33 PM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
Member Since: 09/21/2002
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Is there a site, aside from fighting chickens, that better breaks down the differences btw these various styles? That would help answer my questions and the OP. When i brought up the quesiton of finding a traditional art that was balanced but also sparred hard, my buddy was tellin me shotokan allows throws and sweeps... he was sayin they used to bring in judo guys to teach them... but from what i understand shotokan tournments are a lot more less contact? Is there a site that exists that breaks down the various styles?
2/12/08 6:52 PM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
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" Is there a site, aside from fighting chickens, that better breaks down the differences btw these various styles?"

Check with the guys at the www.kyokushin4life.com forum for details on kyokushin and its related styles (enshin, ashihara, seidokaikan, shidokan, seido juku, world oyama, sato juku and many, many more) and selected other full contact focused styles.
But they dont go into no-contact styles much, just as 24 fighting chicken dont go into much outside of shotokan.

Shotokan is the base of light contact (WKF/WUKO rules) karate. They allow sweeps and some throws. The do NOT allow lowkicks or knees (or hook punches). They break after each hit to give out points (or not give out points if it was not a clean hit).
Oldschool shotokan has some contact in their fighting (ippon shobu rules). But they are far from full contact, and if if the opponent go down from your hit, you get disqualified for excessive contact.
2/19/08 12:56 PM
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FutureProdigy
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Edited: 19-Feb-08
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"They allow sweeps and some throws" could you elaborate on that. Does that mean you would learn throws/sweeps as part of your shotokan training then? Which you wont do in kyokushin right?
2/19/08 4:50 PM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 19-Feb-08 05:02 PM
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I have only trained shotokan as a guest student, so Im not sure how much sweep/throw training they have regularly. They dont have any throws in the standard grading techniques, but the grading techniques are only the absolute basics -it is far from everything taught in any style of karate. Not being in the grading system does however mean that the skills are taught to different degrees in different dojos.
If you look at the bunkai (applications) for the kata (no matter which trad style of karate you look at. kyokushin, shotokan, gojuryu -whatever), you will find almost all the throws from judo (although maybe not in as many minor or refined variations). How much they are trained in each dojo is another matter.

Im going on sport competition rules, and competition rules tend to ban a lot of stuff taught in the ART.

The WKF/WUKO/Ippon shobu point karate rules which shotokan mostly competes with, allow "safe" throws. Exactly which throws they are is not specified, but here is a snippet from the WKF rulebook explanation: "For reasons of safety, throws where the opponent is thrown without being held onto, or thrown dangerously, or where the pivot point is above hip level, are prohibited and will incur a warning or penalty. Exceptions are conventional karate leg sweeping techniques, which do not require the opponent to be held while executing the sweep such as de ashi-barai, ko uchi gari, kani waza etc. After a throw has been executed the referee will allow the contestant two to three seconds in which to attempt a scoring technique. ".

Note that the "thrown dangerously" clause may result in a penalty for basically any throw the referee wants. Although any  and all sutemi waza throws (sacrifice techniques - throws where you both fall to the ground) are counted as dangerous.
9/15/08 3:44 AM
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Anek
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Edited: 09/15/08 4:21 AM
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Kolsyrade - Look for the traditional goju karate Weight training requirements (or modern equivalents).


What are these requirements? Do you mean you have to be at a certain level of strength to advance through the belt ranks?
9/15/08 12:48 PM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 09/15/08 12:49 PM
Member Since: 5/30/04
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Thread resurrection??

Anek - What are these requirements? Do you mean you have to be at a certain level of strength to advance through the belt ranks?


Weight training program with dumbells, stone weights and so on to increase strength, intergrated with the regular training. Not required in grading test, but in everyday training (not "optional after class if you got time", or "do it on your own if you feel like it", but actual requirement as in "do this or don't come back!").

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3SX2ZfTUA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTJNHWDfm24

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