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TMA UnderGround >> Taiji style differences ?


3/18/04 4:14 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 18-Mar-04
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What are the differences between the taiji styles ? Do they just have different forms or are there fundamental differences ?
3/23/04 2:34 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 23-Mar-04
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ttt ?
3/23/04 2:46 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 23-Mar-04
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I am also puzzled that this is unanswered. We've got have some wu or chen guys here.
I know that some are faster, more combative forms, but I'm no expert.
3/23/04 4:24 PM
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VBrown
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Edited: 23-Mar-04
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Sheesh. It's kind of a big topic with alot of points of contention between them. Chen style is the oldest (documented) and tends toward a "large frame". Beginning students traditionally started with long standing practise and silk reeling exercises. Then the forms would be ways of illustrating how that power developed by the silk reeling could be used, or changed to fit the needs of the opportunity. Yang style is an outgrowth of Chen. It doesn't have the silk reeling exercises, but also tends to be larger in frame. Wu and Hao (another Wu) tend to be small frame. I don't know much about their history. I've met a good Wu stylist and he's pretty slick. It's not for me, but I can see it's value for the right person. FWIW, Vince
3/23/04 8:03 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 23-Mar-04
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Basically they are derived from each other as Vince said. Chen is the oldest, Yang came from Chen, Wu came from Yang and Chen, Sun came from Wu and other internal arts. Hao is from Wu as well. The forms are quite different due to evolution etc. Fundamentally Chen has more regular kungfu style jumps, holds and strikes. There are small framed Chen styles but the older Chen styles tend to have more difficult low wide stances.
3/24/04 4:35 AM
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ifidieidie
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Edited: 24-Mar-04
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The Sun style is sometimes described as Xing Yi from the waist up, Ba Gua from the waist down, all done with the softness of Taiji. Sun Lu Tang, the inventor of the Sun style, was primarily a Xing Yi expert. He then studied Bagua for a few years, and finally Hao style Taiji for six months. He then developed the Sun Taiji form in the early 1900's. The Sun style uses many movements from Xing Yi, including moving through San Ti stance several times. The hand movements are a little bit more linear than in other styles, as many of the movements are similar to the Xing Yi five elements. The Sun style movements of cloud hands and single whip are both done with hand shapes essentially the same as the hand shape in Xing Yi's san ti stance. The triangle stance, which is used in Bagua is repeated many times through out the Sun style hand form. The Bagua circle walking technique is used in the Sun style straight sword set. In general, in the Sun style, the footwork is light and agile, and there are no low stances such as the Yang style "snake creeps down."
3/24/04 10:06 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 24-Mar-04
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Which of the styles would be considered "harder" as opposed to "softer"?
I have a friend who studies chen, and she characterized her school as faster and harder than the slower forms I usually see. Is that common for chen, or an abberation?
3/24/04 3:59 PM
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VBrown
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Edited: 24-Mar-04
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Chen covers alot of ground. You could safely say it TENDS to be a faster than others, but it depends on the set, what you're working on etc. I love watching peoples faces when they see the "thunder fist" form. "THAT'S Taiji?!?!?!" heh. The Wu style that I've seen is pretty quick, but not "hard". Part of that comes from it being a small frame. Yang tends to be slow, but what I know about Yang you could hold in your hand with room for a beer. Vince
3/25/04 12:56 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 25-Mar-04 12:49 PM
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ttt Wu is considered the most combative, no ?
3/25/04 8:13 PM
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SHOOTER
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Edited: 25-Mar-04
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I was shown chan-ssu-chin/silk-reeling very early in my training of Yang's Tai Chi. It's an essential element for really understanding TCC's chin-na and shuai-chiao as an abstract method of stealing the balance, following the limbs, and filling the gaps. The forms I learned from the 3 Yang's players I trained with, including my sifu, differed quite a bit. All 3 had Bagua and Hsing-I training along with their TCC, but the same approach to training TCC's principles and methods was given in what they felt was important for learning the martial art.
3/26/04 1:50 PM
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VBrown
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Edited: 26-Mar-04
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Silk reeling and Yang style is quite a rarity! Sounds like darn good training to me. I agree with all those points, plus it can lead to some startling power. Chen Xiao Wang VERY lightly used me during a short demo a few years ago. Just that light touch was freaking disturbing. It was like getting moved gently by a truck...sorta. Vince
6/6/04 11:58 AM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 06-Jun-04
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Chen taichi is not tai chi ? "With this background information, Wu Tu Nan had asked Chen Fa Ke during a meeting around 1950 whether his art was Taijiquan, given that the definition of Taijiquan was that is was based on the 13 postures. Chen Fa Ke had replied that his art was not based on the 13 postures and so was not Taijiquan. The meeting was cordial and it was not confrontational." http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg2.htm
6/6/04 10:53 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 07-Jun-04 04:11 AM
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"Chen taichi is not tai chi ? " Well quite amusing. But the other styles are derived from Chen Taiji. The choreography of the Yang/Wu/Sun/Hao older forms and the names of the techniques are so close for such a long form that it's just not possible for it to be coincidence. The name of the art, "taiji", did not come from the Chen village. It was named taiji by Yang Lu Chan. Hence Chen Fake would have no reason to want claim to do an art defined by "13 postures" that he wasn't aware of. From his perspective, he did the style of his village and these guys were doing a pale imitation that they called taiji. That whole site is a crock of shit really. It's all constructing an argument, selectively picking stupid facts to make a story fit. When just by looking at the forms as they now are done, despite all the wierd mutations, they look so obviously related. The site owner just wants to claim it came from Wudang temple and not some farm village. See the "Difference btw yoga and tai chi" thread. It doesn't even make sense. First he states some Wudang guy taught the style to the Chens who go on to teach Yang Luchan. Then he says that Chen Fake denied that they are similar. They've been having stupid arguments like this for 50-70 years.
6/9/04 4:29 AM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 09-Jun-04 11:52 AM
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thanks, good to know ed if you read the site, he states many possible origins though
6/10/04 11:42 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 10-Jun-04
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"if you read the site, he states many possible origins though" None of the origins have a lot of evidence to them which tends to obscure what's verifiable. If you look carefully, he's basically saying the art came down from Wang Tsung Yueh and Jiang Fa to the Chen village from the Wudang temple. This is the Yang version of the origins. He doesn't really support the other origins. All of them are pretty hazy anyway. As soon as a monk or temple is mentioned, you can set your bullshit meter to high. Somehow a tall tale will get in there somewhere. They have as much martial arts training as Friar Tuck had in Sherwood Forrest.
6/15/04 3:11 AM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 15-Jun-04
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I don't see that 'agenda' at all. He doesn't support the other origins, because there probably isn't evidence to support them. Or is there ? As you said, they're hazy anyway.
6/15/04 8:48 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 15-Jun-04
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"I don't see that 'agenda' at all. He doesn't support the other origins, because there probably isn't evidence to support them. Or is there ? As you said, they're hazy anyway." His pet theory has the same amount of support (and haze). I don't see much point trying to extrapolate backwards into haze. Having to scrounge to look for evidence prior to the Chen village just shows that it's likely that the art as we know it was mainly developed *in* Chen village and NOT prior to that (from Wudang temple).
6/16/04 8:29 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 16-Jun-04
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It is strange though that they did this hard style and suddenly this very different internal art sprang up
6/16/04 11:35 PM
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ed2002
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Edited: 16-Jun-04
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Not sure which hard style you are referring to. Nevertheless it doesn't add any credence to an influence from Wudang temple. And why would this hard style that they *supposedly* practiced be gone now from Chen village while the internal style still there? Which is why it's just speculation of what was done "before monks came along". All taiji styles can trace back pretty confidently to Chen village. If you want to try go further back than that then good luck finding anything that isn't someone's guess. If there's evidence around, I'm all ears but I'm not hearing any yet.

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