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TMA UnderGround >> Chin Na


4/11/04 11:36 PM
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Frogs
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Edited: 11-Apr-04
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Anyone ever practice Chin na. It claims to be a grappling system, although a lot of their takedowns seem nore similar to hapkido joint locks than any wrestling style. They also place a lot of emphasis on grip training.
4/12/04 1:52 AM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 12-Apr-04
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See the thread Yang Jwing ming. Chin na is mainly joint locks, shuai jiao is wrestling. I guess there is some overlap.
4/12/04 12:23 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 12-Apr-04
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Chin Na seems to contain all of the wrist and finger locks that I learned in hapkido.
Does anyone teach this as a whole style, or does it just stand for a body of techniques that different styles use?
4/12/04 1:26 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 12-Apr-04
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didn't hapkido come from JJJ, which definitely was influenced by CMA
4/12/04 4:46 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 12-Apr-04
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shen, that's what I suspected. It's a not an art so much as a body of knowledge.

NG, HKD takes most (if not all) of its locks and throws from aikijitsu, and you might be able to make an aiki-to-china connection.
4/29/04 1:12 PM
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rene.r
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Edited: 29-Apr-04
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Qin Na (Kum Na in Cantonese) is not a system. It is an element of most TCMA, an aspect along with striking and take downs. Yang's books are okay, but it's almost all Fujian white crane Qin Na repackaged as Shaolin or Taiji or whatever book he puts out at the time. It is similar to Aiki because humans have roughly the same physical forms, the intended purpose is the same, and there was likely cross-polination or derivation at some point.
6/5/04 3:42 PM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 05-Jun-04
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"didn't hapkido come from JJJ, which definitely was influenced by CMA" JJJ was NOT influenced by CMA. There are no verifiable records of that. CMA had influence over the okinawan styles, and possibly over sumo, via shuai chiao, but nobody can prove that CMA had any influence on the development of JJJ.
6/5/04 4:51 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 05-Jun-04 04:42 PM
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Well even the Japanese attribute a lot of the roots of JJJ to Chin Gempin (sp?) and there is a stele erected in his honor to this day. --During the reign of Shoho, three hundred years ago, (1638 A.D.), a Chinese man, Chen Gempin, of Ming dynasty, came and taught techniques on how to capture a person. From these ancient Jujitsu techniques, a selection was made, and these were arranged into one, a new technique was created and named Yawara. This name yawara is circulated and widely taught, and is the origin of present day Judo.-- http://www2.uiuc.edu/ro/IJJ/instrscroll.html "JJJ was NOT influenced by CMA. There are no verifiable records of that. CMA had influence over the okinawan styles, and possibly over sumo, via shuai chiao, but nobody can prove that CMA had any influence on the development of JJJ."
6/5/04 5:06 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 05-Jun-04
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There are many mentions of Chinese influence in this article "Root Arts of Judo". http://judo1.net/ju01002.htm
6/6/04 1:50 AM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 06-Jun-04
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here's something from judoinfo that states otherwise - like I said, there is no verifiable link to china, only varied accounts of it's origin. The account given by the school named Yoshinryu is as follows: This school was begun by Miura Yoshin, a physician of Nagasaki in Hizen. He flourished in the early times of the Tokugawa shoguns. Believing that many diseases arose from not using mind and body together, he invented some methods of jujutsu. Together with his two medical pupils he found out 21 ways of seizing an opponent and afterwards found out 51 others. After his death his pupils founded two separate schools of the art, one of them naming his school Yoshinryu, from Yoshin, his teacher's name; the other named his school Miuraryu, also from his teacher's name. The next account is that of a manuscript named Tenjin Shinyoryu Taiiroku. In it there occurs a conversation between Iso Mataemon, the founder of the Tenjin Shinyoryu, and Terasaki, one of his pupils. The origin of jujutsu is related thus: There once lived in Nagasaki a physician named Akiyama, who went to China to study medicine. There he learned an art called hakuda which consisted of kicking and striking, differing, we may note, from jujutsu, which is mainly seizing and throwing. Akiyama learned three methods of this hakuda and 28 ways of recovering a man from apparent death. When he returned to Japan, he began to teach this art, but as he had few methods, his pupils got tired of it, and left him. Akiyama, feeling much grieved on this account, went to the Tenjin shrine in Tsukushi and there worshipped for 100 days. In this place he discovered 303 different methods of the art. What led to this is equally curious. One day during a snowstorm he observed a willow tree whose branches were covered with snow. Unlike the pine tree, which stood erect and broke before the storm, the willow yielded to the weight of snow on its branches, but did not break under it. In this way, he reflected jujutsu must be practiced. So he named his school Yoshinryu, the spirit of the willow-tree-school. In the Taiiroku it is denied that Chingempin introduced jujutsu into Japan-but while affirming that Akiyama introduced some features of the art from China, it adds, "it is a shame to our country" to ascribe the origin of jujutsu to China. In this opinion we ourselves concur. It seems to us that the art is Japanese in origin and development for the following reasons: 1. An art of defense without weapons is common in all countries in a more or less developed state, and in Japan the feudal state would necessarily develop jujutsu. 2. The Chinese kempo and Japanese ju-jutsu differ materially in their methods. 3. The existence of a similar art is referred to, before the time of Chingempin. 4. The unsatisfactoriness of the accounts given of its origin. 5. The existence of Japanese wrestling from very early times, which in some respects resembles jujutsu. 6. As Chinese arts and Chinese civilizations were highly esteemed by the Japanese, in order to give prestige to the art, jujutsu may have been ascribed to a Chinese origin. 7. In ancient times teachers of the different branches of military arts, such as fencing, using the spear, etc., seem to have practiced this art to some extent. In support of this position, we remark first that jujutsu, as practiced in Japan, is not known in China. In that country there is the art before referred to called kempo, and from the account of it in a book named Kikoshinsho, it seems to be a method of kicking and striking.
6/6/04 1:54 AM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 06-Jun-04
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here's the whole article. It even asserts that chengempin was actually a kempo practitioner.
6/6/04 11:07 AM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 06-Jun-04 11:21 AM
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well, one needs to come to their own conclusion. The article definitely has some inaccuracies. It even seems to contradict itself. I would argue that: - Kempo was introduced before Chen's time. He is not known as a teacher of kempo but of JJ - I believe kempo was not brought to Japan from okinawa until the 20th century - Kempo's root arts DO contain plenty of grappling techniques anyway - The existence of previous grappling arts does not preclude a strong Chinese influence (as with karate) - The JJJ syllabus can be extremely similar to Chin na techniques - The article was written in the nationalist era where it made sense to promote cultural pride
6/6/04 1:21 PM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 06-Jun-04 01:17 PM
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of course the syllabus would be similar... how may different ways can you lock an arm? strikes look similar across several styles also. It goes back to what I said... it's not verifiable that jjj was influenced by china. It may have been, but there is no solid proof. here's something I saw on jiu-jitsu.net: "The last story mentioned here is that Jiu-Jitsu is Japanese and from Japan. This story follows the same basic idea but differs in that Chingempin introduced an early form of Jiu-Jitsu (not yet called Jiu-Jitsu) called Kempo in Japan, which consisted mostly of strikes and very little grappling. From there, the Japanese developed it into a more effective grappling art. One thing is certain about these stories, and that is that the Japanese were responsible for refining a grappling art into a very sophisticated grappling system called Jiu-Jitsu." too many stories, not enough evidence...
6/6/04 1:32 PM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 06-Jun-04 01:23 PM
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" Opinions differ as to the origin of the art. One traces it to Chin Gempin, a naturalized Chinese, of whom mention is made in the following paragraph. Another attributes it to Shirobei Akiyama, a physician at Nagasaki, who is stated to have learned three tricks of hakuda in China. A third, on the other hand, claims the art to be the production of pure Japanese ingenuity. To state more in detail, Chin Gempin was naturalized as a Japanese subject in 1659 and died in 1671. While sojourning at the Kokushoji temple at Azabu, Tokyo (then Yedo), he, it is stated, taught three tricks of jujitsu to three ronin (samurai discharged from their lord's service). These ronin were Shichiroyemon Fukuno, Yojiyemon Miura and Jirozayemon Isogai, and after much study, they each founded their own schools of jujitsu. It is beyond doubt that what was learned by them consisted of three kinds of atewaza (that is to say, striking the vital and vulnerable parts of the body) of the Chinese kempo (pugilism). We cannot, therefore, arrive at the hasty conclusion that Chin is the founder of jujitsu in this country, though it must be stated to his credit that his teaching gave an undoubted impulse to the development of jujitsu." The second of the-three views, conferring upon Shirobei Akiyama the honour of being the pioneer of jujitsu in Japan, is maintained by one of the Shinyo schools and is not supported by any other schools. This theory, like the preceding one, can scarcely hold water, since kempo and hakuda of China, the latter of which arts Akiyama learnt in that country, were no doubt confined solely to kicking and striking, and it is highly improbable that jujitsu, the art of throwing and killing, was originated by him. What then, you may ask, has given rise to such incredible traditions? It is possible that the authors of the two views expressed above found it expedient to give to the Chinese the credit of being the founder of jujitsu in this country, for by this action they might gain the greater confidence of the public than declaring themselves as originators of the art — a consideration quite natural to exponents of new ideas and things. This supposition is in a way explained by the fact that in former days the Chinese were held in high esteem in Japan, as were Westerners later, so high indeed that our forefathers often accepted with undue credulity anything attributed to Chinese school of thought. What may be considered as a strong proof against the above mentioned views is that both yawara and toride are referred to in a book styled "Kuyamigusa " (My Confessions) which was published in 1647, twelve years prior to the immigration of Chin Gempin. Moreover, the term kumiuchi is often found in still older books. These records afford ground for believing that jujitsu prevailed in Japan at a much earlier period. Further, the Takenouchi school, which is acknowledged by the majority of jujitsu professors to be the oldest of the kind, was founded in 1532 by Hisamori Takenouchi. It is therefore indisputable that that school was in existence long before Chin Gempin ever set foot on this land.
6/6/04 2:30 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 06-Jun-04 02:30 PM
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well at the same time you could say there is no verifiable proof that any of the latter day schools were descended directly from early native arts.. though some of it probably was. the above article seems to infer that jujitsu had only one origin. But in the article I posted, Chin and Akiyama were said to have influenced certain schools. If Chin was not the teacher of the three ronin, who was ? If Akiyama did study kempo, it was probably White Crane which has a wealth of chin na apparently. the whole concept of "ju" is very Taoist in the first place. of Kito Ryu, one of Kano's own styles Cunningham's article says "Kito is also based upon the principles of wa (harmony, accord, fluidity) and ju (suppleness, softness, gentleness). In application on the battlefield, the system incorporates a complex amalgam of strategies, many calling back to the Chinese master strategist Sun Tzu. Kito addresses the pursuit of loftier ideals, including spiritual and self-actualization interests, in a similar way, teaching that one should harmonize the Self with the Universe. It is so complex in terms of its theory as to be nearly impenetrable to analysis from the "outside." Chinese Taoist elements have been imported wholesale."
6/6/04 4:03 PM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 06-Jun-04
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kito is also attributed to having japanese founders. According to one article I posted, chin may have been the inspiration, but the development was japanese. Also, they weren't saying there was only one origin. They actually cited three possibilities. None of them, however, can be proved. The art akiyama is said to have learned consisted mainly of kicks and strikes.
6/6/04 4:26 PM
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Otsuka
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Edited: 06-Jun-04
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Japanese culture has Chinese influence in just about everything. So it's not at all surprising if JJ has Chinese influence as well.
6/6/04 5:07 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 06-Jun-04
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also see this http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1962/sep62/historyofjudo/historyofjudo.html
6/7/04 4:10 AM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 07-Jun-04
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kempo is known mainly for it's strikes, not it's locks. Even the last article you posted states: "Recently, Chin Gempin (Ch'en Yuan-pin) came to Japan and stayed at the Kokusa monastery, where he met three ronin (lordless Samurai) Fukuno Hichiroemon, Isogai Jirozaemon, and Miura Yojiemon. Chin Gempin told them that in China, there is an art of seizing a man, which he had seen practised and that it was practised in such and such a fashion, however, he had not learned all the principles. On hearing this, they made investigations and afterward became skillful and founded the Kitoryu school of Jujutsu:" this coincides with something I posted - that chin may have been an inspiration, but the development was completely japanese. chin was a striker, and only knew three locks, which he supposedly showed to them. either way, none of the theories of its origin can be proved - for every article you post about chin, I can post one denouncing it - but we'll never really know.
6/12/04 10:38 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 12-Jun-04
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As I see it, Chin is not a "theory" since there is documentation. That is the only way we know any kind of history prior to the news camera. The "theory" is that they exaggerated the influence, made up the story, etc. "either way, none of the theories of its origin can be proved - for every article you post about chin, I can post one denouncing it - but we'll never really know."
6/13/04 1:33 AM
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makinyoazztap
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Edited: 13-Jun-04
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I agree completely. I didn't not say chin na was mere theory. There is a theoretical side to it, as with anything else though. but that theoretical aspect is within the person, not in chin na itself.

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