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TMA UnderGround >> SAMBO v ROSS vs SYSTEMA


5/30/04 1:43 AM
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ResuTudo
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Edited: 30-May-04
Member Since: 02/15/2003
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I posted this in the Judo forum but if anyone can provide me an answer, since I was not able to provide my brother an answer when he asked, what is the difference between SAMBO, SYSTEMA, and ROSS? Is ROSS just a general term for Russian Martial Arts such as Wushu is for Chinese MA and Budo for Japanese MA? I visited NYC Combat Sambo before (its a great place to train for anyone in NYC who wants to learn Sambo) but have never seen much of the other two (though I think I watched some guys practice SYSTEMA while at Ronin Athletics). Can anyone elaborate the distinctions of each, especially the latter two?
5/31/04 9:45 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 31-May-04
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I think "Rupokashni Boi" would be the generic term for Russian military martial arts. ROSS' founder was a sport sambo champion who studied under Kadochnikov. Let's not forget Buza, Slaviano-goritskaya bor'ba, Lubki, Skobar, Velesova Boriba, Tropa Troyana etc. Here's a good general discussion of various Russian styles (internet resources etc). Some of the sites are in russian, the thread also discusses various methods of translating Russian sites. If you mean sport Sambo, the obvious answeer is that the other two involve hitting and weapons. I can't really talk much about ROSS, I've only seen 1 tape and some magazine articles. That said, one impression I got from reading a BB magazine article is that there must be some SAMBO influence, as often the demo's movement would culminate in a big throw, where a systema guy might just go for a knee to the back of the head.
5/31/04 5:00 PM
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poobear
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Edited: 31-May-04 04:49 PM
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"Systema is much like Lord of the Rings (ie - bad fantasy with no connection to reality). " Drill clip (30mb) Sparring clip (30mb) codec is Windows Media 9 May I ask who you've sparred with?
5/31/04 5:12 PM
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poobear
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Edited: 31-May-04
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This forum is not the place to “teach someone a lesson” in how useless you think a particular training style is. Pointless degradation of styles or practitioners is not welcome here. Needless to say, trolls will be instantly dim-maked out of here. This means, I think, that you aren't obliged to agree with me, but you are constrained to give thoughtful and valid reasons for saying what you do. Reasoned debate, if you will.
5/31/04 8:18 PM
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lkfmdc
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Edited: 31-May-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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If Vlad had gotten KO'd with a single punch somewhere, I'm pretty sure that it would be PLASTERED all over the internet, so I don't knwo what to make of this claim? Related to this however, I have very mixed feelings about Systema, whenever I see the claims of physic powers and mind control I frankly cringe.... some of it reads like old Cold War propoganda The unarmed movement, I understand the concept, seen it in combat sambo, we even have it, for some it works, but for others it becomes "aikido" = worthless, it's a double edged sword...
5/31/04 8:49 PM
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poobear
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Edited: 31-May-04
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"Just watch the clips you posted. Systema is based around compliant training " In the 1st clip, there's drills in the first clip where you have to sprawl against a double, and sometimes the guy doing the double gets it. How is this compliant training? You think the guy on the bottom is letting the guy on top punch him in the nuts in the 2nd clip??? Vlad was knocked out with one punch. I'd love to hear some names, places, and dates around that, especially since Vlad is well known for a lack of trash-talking. For now, having myself sparred with LEO's, kickboxers and judokas, I take it with a grain of salt. whenever I see the claims of physic powers and mind control I frankly cringe.... Funny, but I never seem to see them actually coming from Vlad, Mikhail, or the affiliates. It's always someone else saying that we say them. Nobody inside the shop thinks it's supposed to be anything amazing or beyond science.
5/31/04 9:07 PM
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poobear
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Edited: 31-May-04 09:10 PM
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"Maybe he sparred with Ryabko and George Dillman. " There's some major differences between those two: 1) Ryabko does not profess to KO people without touching. 2) when he offbalances without touching, he says it's works based on psychological mechanisms, like fear or agression, as opposed to projecting some kind of force. [edit - he tricks you] 3) When he hits you, you know you've been hit [edit - and you tend not to awant to repeat it]
5/31/04 9:11 PM
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poobear
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Edited: 31-May-04
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lkfmdc Have you ever worked out with the guys in fighthouse?
5/31/04 9:59 PM
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lkfmdc
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Edited: 31-May-04
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yawn, as I said ALREADY, I've seen plenty of Systema, I didn't exactly trash it, I pointed out it has draw backs, if that makes you go bonkers I really can't say more, it's movement method can make you very smooth, but for some people (relax, I won't even say "a lot") it becomes just as unnatural as the other stuff they criticize I've been around long enought to remember the supernatural power video tape, maybe they've moved beyond that, but I remember it, and it was Vlad's teacher selling it and saying it
6/1/04 6:52 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 01-Jun-04 06:58 AM
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"yawn, as I said ALREADY, I've seen plenty of Systema, I didn't exactly trash it, I pointed out it has draw backs, if that makes you go bonkers I really can't say more, it's movement method can make you very smooth, but for some people (relax, I won't even say "a lot") it becomes just as unnatural as the other stuff they criticize" You thought that question was me freaking out on you? I just asked you about fighthouse because I was curious as to what they were up to - I don't live in New York, and their guys don't surf much as far as I can tell. As for this tape you're talking about, the only one I am aware of that Ryabko actually explains anything on this no-touch is "Beyond the Physical", in which he states very explicitly what I have already said. Vlad had a free tape he gave out called Psychic Energy. He used metaphors like 'pulling strings' to describe actions like exposing a target to sucker the guy into going after it. Ryabko was not on that tape. He withdrew it because he felt that Mikhail is his master, and his explanation and understanding is better and deeper. So "Beyond the Physical" is to replace that. But i did get a lot of useful tactical ideas from "Psychic Energy". [edit - I should also add that there was room for ambiguity which the chi crowd latched onto. "Beyond the Physical" is much less ambiguous] "Someone on jeet kune do web kwoon actually claimed Vlad actually sparred and beat Royce Gracie (who intiated the confrontation). But I thought it was bs. " I heard that around here before too, and I'll say what I said then: I've never heard of it from Vlad or any of the people at his school. That should tell you all you need to know. But then, people are always running around telling BS about VV and MR. There's some kids I've come across who hate them because they are spetz or Russian. One Chechyen kid sent me a private message calling them baby-killers etc. etc. There's people who get a kick out of spreading false rumours and discord. I'm not in favour of lies about systema, either pro- or con.
6/1/04 7:36 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 01-Jun-04 07:44 AM
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"I though Ross was passed down in clans form generations in Russia and all these systems were combined by Stalin who ordered a modern version of these combined styles. With Systema I heard the founder traveled to many parts of the world before creating it and mixing many styles as well. " A fair question. This article by Sonnon talks about why Ryutenski and Kadochnikov split up - which implies they were together, no? It's pretty common knowledge in russia, btw, even this guy (who isn't systema or K-sys either) knows that. What I can tell you for sure is that Stalin did authorize a team of experts to come up with H2H fighting. I can verify that Spiridonov's style certainly sounds like a precursor to systema as done today. And it's recognized the Kadochnikiv was a student (see here for a general history). What the last link doesn't mention is that Kadochnikov himself has said that while he and Ryabko are friendly, there is no teacher-student relationship between them. Does K teach spiridonov style? No, he has added to it, analyzed it as a mechanical engineer. [edit - and he says he also incorporated what he learned from his family] While I think Ryabko may have some lineage to Spiridonov, S was not around in the 60's and 70's when R had to learn it. That may explain some similarities between systema and K-sys. However, the learning approach is very different, is more about intuition, mental and phsyical relaxation. Rather than focus on how to throw a perfect punch, you learn what it feels like to throw a good punch, and focus more on the feeling rather than the mechanics behind it. What the largest bone of contention is, is to what extent was Russian/Soviet native fighting styles a part of these styles? Based on the fact that most outsiders see that which is both familiar and different, no matter what they've done before, except for maybe karate, I will say at least some (I think most, I have my reasons). At the end no the day, though, no style can have defenses against modern firearms based on the biomechanics of operating said firearms, and based on the engineering and weghtedness of those firearms, and still claim to be traditional. Knights and peasants knew nothing of guns. So for sure systema has been modernized. A living tradition.
6/1/04 4:36 PM
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lkfmdc
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Edited: 01-Jun-04
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I suppose I am just used to the internet being the place where people argue pointlessly all the time, if that wasn't your intention so be it, I thought my comment was rather mild, and worthy of discussion My friend is a master in combat sambo, I've seen the movement, discussed it, even compared it to the movement I learned in my traditional Chinese martial art style... I never said it is crap, like let's say Taekwondo taegeuk sets which are completely without merit, I said that as a strategy for student development it has draw backs. I've seen the same drawbacks when I tried to teach similar methods, and still try with certain students. In many things I have no definite and concrete position, I consider my own teachings a work in progress, ever changing and ever evolving, sometimes devolving. IN 5 years I might be doing exactly the same sort of movement. But at present, I am torn between it's pros and it's cons
6/1/04 10:23 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 01-Jun-04
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Scott Sonnon does have a forum here you know. I think Sonnon said that Systema focuses on "soft" work, while ROSS uses soft and hard training
6/1/04 11:08 PM
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poobear
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Edited: 01-Jun-04
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"I think Sonnon said that Systema focuses on "soft" work, while ROSS uses soft and hard training " Yes, he has a forum here, you have a point. Rather than bother him with something so trivial as Retsyunski and K, I thought I'd just point to his website. BTW, that article says K-sys is all soft, not systema, but who knows... All I know is, VV's guys will offer proof at seminars, eg. my boy wowed them in Seattle by getting out from under 10 large dudes and throwing everyone around like a rag doll. There is no compliant work in the sparring clip, and the last 2 - 3 minutes are quite had contact. If you like I'll re-upload the version with sound, so you can actually hear the hitting. lkfmdc Of course you have reservations. I don't expect the MA world to kowtow to VV - but respect or at least caution is good, no? You are finding your own truth, which is more than can be said for the majority, who just look for docrine, or a bandwagon to hop on. I really respect that.
6/2/04 3:49 AM
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theJJKid
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Edited: 02-Jun-04
Member Since: 10/21/2002
Posts: 421
I just viewed that sparring clip. I'm a fairly inexeperienced MA'ist (~3 years) but to me that looked terrible. I am sure if those guys went full force there would be some broken wrists as a result of those body punches. I can appreciate going slow, but that seemed to have little value.
6/2/04 7:27 AM
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Aran
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Edited: 02-Jun-04 09:50 AM
Member Since: 08/17/2003
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I am amazed how some people can criticise Systema without checking it out. In fairness, clips can be very deceptive as they can only convey a certain aspect about motion, they just convey visually and they just convey what the camera sees. We see and feel much more through front line observation and I think it helps to experience this art, where possible. However, if you are going to experience this art in 'all its heavenly glory' (excuse the enter the dragon quote..very unsystema of me!) I would recommend that one tries to get as close to the source as possible, that means paying a visit to the likes of Vladimir's class in Toronto or trying to meet Mikhail Ryabko. If you are going to learn from other Systema instructors, try to get a sense of their levels of perception and experience (not just experience in the art but experience of life itself!) Observe how they carry themself and what are the reasons they are expressing this art. The eyes show much! From my own experiences I haven't really met anyone with as much practical skills as Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev. Other instructors have also impressed me in their own unique way such as Val Riazanov in UK (from what I understand a former Sambo/Judo expert from Soviet days) and Sergei Ozreliev from Moscow. I can't comment on others who I havent met or seen...one has to chose teachers coaches wisely..we are lucky that we have such a choice There are then some aspects of Systema that maybe life can only teach. The spirtual aspects of the art are interesting..there is no magic but there is a gateway to some truly incredible and moving experiences... I am also lead to belive that even those that just want to supplement there own training background can truly benefit from Systema..I have heard an iron man competitor, grapplers and even a musician point out how systema's breathing concepts have helped them with their own disciplines....I never even showed them that much... Vladimir is very good at quickly showing visitors how to understand what they can let go of. Martial artists get to learn how to lighten their load so to speak. He often does this in a gentle way without imposing anything to intense. Students get taught in a very individualist manner. this is how it was in the old days....at times people dont even realise what he has shown them until the lesson sinks in maybe a few weeks, month slater...then they just smile or go:"doh!" Systema can also help one to understand more about the body and I found its helped me to avoid many exercises from other arts etc that damage the body! I am not a member of any Systema organisation or group here in UK but happily acknowledge Vlad's and Mikhail's skills and admit that they are master's masters! and remember what lies in the eyes! hope this helps, Aran www.globalkick.com
6/2/04 7:31 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 02-Jun-04
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"I am sure if those guys went full force there would be some broken wrists as a result of those body punches." Full force strikes video clip
6/2/04 7:32 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 02-Jun-04
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That's it, I'm putting the sound back in.
6/2/04 10:01 AM
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Aran
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Edited: 02-Jun-04
Member Since: 08/17/2003
Posts: 24
Poobear, Thanks for making an effort by showing all these clips...i liked the one where you guys were playing with mass attack/ random attacks...( the one that takes a while to download) that Dema has a lot of energy and it seems to carry through into his class, which is good to see. Wish I had a chance to head up to Hamilton school last time I was in Toronto... That random attack work simualtes alot of what occurs outside bars and clubs here in UK, where groups of drunk men like to just fight for the sake of it! Sometimes if people see a punch up going on, the passers by just join in for the buzz...or maybe its a territorial thing...often as two guys are wrestling on the floor, one of the guy's mates just join in and start playing soccer with the other guy's head! I guess some people should have been born during the medieval era!!! Release the Celts!!!
6/2/04 10:22 AM
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poobear
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Edited: 02-Jun-04
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Aran Thanks for viewing, however, based on the comments by others, it sounds like they aren't really looking at the clips - just general snide remarks that you don't have to watch anything to make, nothing too technical. Do you think the mass fight was too slow?
6/2/04 1:30 PM
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Aran
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Edited: 02-Jun-04
Member Since: 08/17/2003
Posts: 25
In regards to the speed of mass attack...everything is relevant to the situation at hand. Speed is subjective! I fully apreciate that in Systema the slow training is a crucial aspect..helping one to see more in the long run and I am know that the slow training can be balanced with very explosive work such as learning to avoid the stick etc. Also know that Dema (Furtry) can be very explosive as I have seen him storming across the training room at Vlad's place on occasion!
6/4/04 9:47 AM
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MarkT
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Edited: 04-Jun-04
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Poobear wrote: "Funny, but I never seem to see them actually coming from Vlad, Mikhail, or the affiliates. It's always someone else saying that we say them. Nobody inside the shop thinks it's supposed to be anything amazing or beyond science." So we have to talk about that Combat artical yet again? You remember? The one where Vlad claims to be able to tell which water has the poison in it, and tell the color of paper by touch alone? Now, they may be very tough guys, but I still have the Troopa tape and I know what is on it. I can read, and unless Vlad has asked them for a public retraction, it stands. So, again, words have meaning. Avoiding the "psychic energy" terms would go a very long way at avoiding the problems. www.randi.org We are still waiting for someone to be tested.....
6/5/04 2:50 PM
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navajoraider
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Edited: 05-Jun-04
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Mark T: You brought up a very interesting point. I always thought that the terminology tripped them up as in using the term psychic, etc. When presented the information wasnt that esoteric or strange. It was simply awareness and raising that awareness in stress situations. I thought that maybe it was translation or at the time trying to market something that may have been the culprit I dont know. But I think if they clearly redefine what they are doing within a pragmatic framework then things would be clearer for everyone.
6/8/04 2:06 AM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 08-Jun-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Russian Judo
I think the difference between Sambo and Systema is that Sambo is practiced against live resisting opponents while Systema relies far more of theory and passive training partners.
6/8/04 10:21 AM
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ResuTudo
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Edited: 08-Jun-04
Member Since: 02/15/2003
Posts: 436
Um thanx guys, but this thread seems to have turned to a Sambo vs Systema thread. Where does ROSS fit in? Does ROSS use live sparring?

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