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SoldierGround >> Combatives Phase 2


6/8/04 11:46 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 08-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 255
 
I'll be taking the Phase 2 in October, any feedbacks anyone? What is all about? I also need to get the shirts that read Instructor. Any ideas where could I get them? CPT Rodriguez
6/8/04 1:35 PM
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SFC Matt Larsen
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Edited: 08-Jun-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 121
The level II course is desighned to iluminate the detailes that were taught in the level I course. The level I course is long enough to show what to do and how to do it, but not long enough to show why it needs to be that way. For example in the level I you learn to keep good posture when you are passing the guard. In level II you are taught that you are keeping good posture in order to defend the triangle. Also the level I course is about 75% ground grappling. The level II is about 50% ground grappling. The level III course is only about 20% ground grappling. The level II is also not nearly as hard as the level I. The level III, however, is hard. Matt
6/10/04 9:58 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 10-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 257
Hey SFC Larsen, what about the shirts?? I know about the reasonings behind the postures, sadly I caught a DS with a triangle in one of the rolling sessions. I say sadly because the triangle was not taught during Phase I, so they were at disadvantage. So I guess that my question should be, what is on level III? I just finished another seminar with Royler Gracie yesterday, it was only 2 hours but intense.
6/10/04 1:10 PM
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SFC Matt Larsen
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Edited: 10-Jun-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 122
To get the instructor shirts you have to graduate the level II. We have them here if you are coming here for your level II. In the level III we teach the rest of the basics of ground grappling, north south, knee on the stomach etc. and spend allot of time grappling with strikes. We also teach striking skills, how to integrate striking and takedowns, fighting with weapons, how to run scenario based training, etc.
6/12/04 11:09 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 12-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 259
Looking forward for Lefel III !!!! Level II most likely will be at the Navy Base in Rhode Island. Thank You for the information.
6/12/04 12:15 PM
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Whatever254
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Edited: 12-Jun-04
Member Since: 06/06/2002
Posts: 775
latinosoy100- Who is teaching Level II at a Naval base in RI? Sounds odd. And if you only caught a triangle on a DS once, you need to really work on your triangles. ;)
6/13/04 3:17 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 13-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 260
Hehehehehe, very funny, the 98th. Division is teaching the courses. It was not supposed to happen, that's why I only used it once, but my cup is empty if you want to teach me some...but my guess is either you are a DS or an NCO. Even the instructors were careless about it. I could have "triangled" all of them if wanted, but it was 2 much for Phase I.
6/13/04 9:52 AM
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SFC Matt Larsen
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Edited: 13-Jun-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 124
Incremental victories brother, imagine what they knew before the training. Soon, when we have the whole Army training, the level will come up. Do you remember the story of Rolls getting triangled by one of his students when he was the top fighter in the Gracie family? That wasn’t very long ago. Imagine that the entire BJJ world didn’t know the triangle. And now we laugh when someone doesn’t know it. Matt
6/13/04 10:07 AM
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Whatever254
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Edited: 13-Jun-04
Member Since: 06/06/2002
Posts: 776
Latinosoy- Guilty on both counts; an NCO and a DS. I'll just say this, though, I don't usually get stuck in triangles. Highly recommend level II. Great course. And to have it being taught around the country like it now is a major victory and speaks volumes for the combatives program and its importance to the military. That is a good story about the triangle. One of Rolls' students found the triangle in an old Judo book and started using it, changing jiu-jitsu forever.
6/15/04 11:23 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 15-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 261
Well, one of them was a pro boxer, that's about it. One of the students was an Army Greco Roman Wrestler Champion. I'm not bragging or try to be better than anyone else, but, like I said on another thread, techniques over power. I've been studying BJJ since '98, and have taken seminars with, Royce, Ryron and Royler, and being at the Renzo Academy in N.Y.and I can basically feel when someone is using strength. Everyone is subject to make mistakes. All depends on the person you are "rolling" with. I just evaluated Phase I as an excellent Phase for someone who has no experience, I'm not a BB, at least not in BJJ, but I heard one of the instructors saying that the rear naked is a safe technique because you could apply it and will kill no one...when in fact you could cause irreversible damage or kill someone with it. I don't consider that incremental or any kind of victory, it was just training, good paid fun training. I don't use to laugh at anyone, I learn from everyone even my Pre-K students. I wish I could take Phase II or III down at Ft. Benning, I was there in '86 for ABN School and I loved it. Hey 254, we are looking for DS, let me know. My cup still empty...
6/15/04 11:43 AM
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SFC Matt Larsen
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Edited: 15-Jun-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 125
latinosoy100, By incramental victories I meant the army is progresing slowly and steadily. The day when saying someone is a Soldiers meens that they know something about fighting is in sight. As for chokes: http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm The most important line in this article is "Since the advent of Judo, first developed by Professor Jigoro Kano in 1882, no death directly attributed to choking has been reported." You can also see: http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm The key sentance here is "Investigations have shown that no deaths had occurred by these techniques since the sport of judo was founded by Professor Jigoro Kano in 1882 in Tokyo, Japan."
6/18/04 9:44 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 18-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 262
SFC Larsen: Two words, "sport" and "directly", Judo as effective as it could be was integrated as a "sport", the articles, do they mention anything about "indirectly"? The object of the combatives (as far as I see it) is to dispose of an enemy effectively and fast, by the use of joint locks, chokes, arm bars...etc. You needed to be there to actually get what he said. Articles from Judo do not equal Combatives effectiveness since the objectives are different, ever since the Army decided to use BJJ wich is to win the fight not a tournament or competititon...Thank you for the story, I didn't know that one.
6/25/04 10:08 AM
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gubbs
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Edited: 25-Jun-04
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How long do you normally have to wait after you attend phase I to attend Phase II? I'm still trying to convince my National Guard unit to send me to the course. Hopefully they will approve it.
6/27/04 12:23 PM
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SFC Matt Larsen
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Edited: 27-Jun-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 130
latinosoy, Effectiveness is a completely different issue than lethality. Judo has been a worldwide sport and movement for more than a hundred years. It has been used by law enforcement around the world for most of that time and yet there are no deaths that can be attributed to Judo choking techniques. Chokes are safe and do not cause death. As for effectiveness, I would refer you to the Combatives testimonials page from the Soldierground. The four stories are representative of many such incidences that we are collecting from the battlefields. The effectiveness of the Modern Army Combatives program is being proven almost daily. Gubbs, We recommend at least two or three month between level I and II to get the best benefit. That is assuming that you are teaching what you learned in Level I in the mean time. So come on back. Let me know if you need any help getting back.
6/28/04 10:37 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 28-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 269
SFC Larsen, are you telling me that if I hold a choke for a couple of minutes will not kill you?? How long do you think the brain can survive without oxygen? Do your homework. Chokes are effective and lethal. About effectiveness, thank you, you just made my point. It was BJJ not Judo used in combat. However Judo is the daughter art of Jiu-Jitsu. Yes I have to agree with you, you could practice choke after choke without causing death. You apply a good choke it will take you maximum of 6 seconds for that person to pass out, after that if you hold it longer (several minutes) brain damage can occur,if you hold it long enough...well just try it... CPT Rodriguez U.S. Army, Aviation
6/28/04 10:57 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 28-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 270
Judo as a possible cause of anoxic brain damage; A case report" by Owens and Ghandiali The Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness, December 1991 Abstract: The rules of judo provide for strangulation techniques in which the blood supply to the brain is blocked by pressure on the carotid arteries; such techniques produce anoxia and possible unconsciousness if the victim fails to submit. A case is presented of a patient with signs of anoxic brain damage, with psychometric investigations showing memory disturbance consistent with a left temporal lobe lesion. This patient had been frequently strangled during his career as a judo player; it is suggested that such frequent strangulation was the cause of the damage. Such an observation indicates the need for caution in the use of such techniques. This is just the beginning... I could refer you to more articles about brain damage or death by Cerebral Hypoxia which are caused by "chokes" or "strangulations", we just have to be careful!!!
6/28/04 11:06 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 28-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 271
More on how the brain works, lack of oxygen causes death... The brain can survive for up to about six minutes after the heart stops. The reason to learn cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is that if CPR is started within six minutes of cardiac arrest, the brain may survive the lack of oxygen. After about six minutes without CPR, however, the brain begins to die. (See How CPR Works to learn more about the procedure.) Prompt resuscitation allows the physician time to assess and treat the damaged brain. Medication and mechanical ventilation permit tissue oxygenation, but severe brain damage or a prolonged period without oxygen or glucose causes the death of the brain. By definition, "brain death" is "when the entire brain, including the brain stem, has irreversibly lost all function." The legal time of death is "that time when a physician(s) has determined that the brain and the brain stem have irreversibly lost all neurological function." The same happens backwards, if the brain stops functioning it will not support any body functions causing death. CPT Rodriguez U.S. Army, Aviation
6/28/04 11:15 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 28-Jun-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 272
This is very interesting... Strangles: Strangles are applied to the one or both of the carotid arteries at the side of the neck. Strangles are used to reduce or stop blood flow through the arteries to cause the person to feel faint or pass out. Forensic literature says that to kill a person by interrupting blood flow to the brain, you need to hold pressure for minimum two minutes, although the person may blackout much sooner. If applied to a person under stress during a struggle, a strangle may make the person unconscious almost immediately, while it may take several seconds for a calm person to pass out. Reay and Eisele's 1983 article in the American Journal of Forensic Pathology "Death from law enforcement neck holds" states that with the judo-derived police carotid sleeper hold, blood flow to the head is reduced by an average of 85% in approximately six seconds. WOW ONLY 2 MINUTES TO CAUSE DEATH...!!! tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Chokes/ChokeInfo.htm
6/29/04 5:48 AM
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Whatever254
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Edited: 29-Jun-04 05:36 AM
Member Since: 06/06/2002
Posts: 800
I may be wrong, but I was always under the impression that the fatalities attributed to police 'neck holds' were from improperly applied holds, i.e. the forearm across the neck, or by using a nightstick, crushing the trachea. Having said that, I do believe that death can result, but who is going to hold a choke for two whole minutes, or 1 min. 50 seconds after the person looses consciousness? Not me, I'd get pretty bored. Not to mention the fact that I'd probably get fatigued as well. BTW, Latinosoy, Can't help the NG. Just signed on indef active a few months ago.
6/29/04 10:57 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 29-Jun-04 10:50 PM
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 274
W254, that's not the point, the issue is that we are responsible for what we teach to our troops, and new soldiers that have no idea about grappling will go back to their barracks to practive what they have learned during combatives at BCT. A good choke with combat fatigue will do an irreversible damage. Last year during practice at FLW I saw a warrior passing out in less than 6 seconds, it took me good 20 seconds to bring him back. If we are teaching to our warriors that chokes or strangulations can not kill, I believe that we are sending the wrong message, and as a BCT Company Commander I have to protect MY Warriors, from this or other mistakes. SAFETY IS EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY!!! CPT Rodriguez U.S. Army,Aviation Rangers Lead the Way Aviation Takes Them There... P.S. We might see each other over Iraq, they are looking for qualified D.S. and Commanders...you might know already why and what for. SFC Larsen, Gubbs doesn't need help but I do, can you help??
6/30/04 3:53 AM
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Booker
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Edited: 30-Jun-04
Member Since: 06/24/2004
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Interesting conversation. I worked at a night club for several years. I choked out at least 40 guys and never had a problem other than making sure they did not choke on their own vomit. Apparently, while intoxicated your brain does not know why it is not getting oxygen so it automaticly thinks it is from too much alcohal and causes the person to throw up whatever is in their stomach. As for the lethality of chokes the only death I heard of was at a bar near us where the bouncers applied a shortened up rear naked and crushed the poor guys trachia with his forearm. Also keep in mind, a big reason someon can be choked out quickly is they tense up the bed of muscles under the arteries out of instinct allowing for a good choke. After uncosciosness the muscles relax and it is much harder to keep all of the blood cut off. Lastly, go to the gym and try to keep a complete muscle contraction for 2 minutes without moving or relaxing. Chokes are the ultimate equalizer and can easily be practiced safely.
6/30/04 8:23 AM
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Whatever254
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Edited: 30-Jun-04
Member Since: 06/06/2002
Posts: 805
I'll be over there anyway. I finish my third year in Sep. and will PCS to (most likely) Ft Drum, and we all know where they are headed. About holding a choke on the battlefield, which is where we would be applying this technique, I have two points: 1. I have better things to do than hold a choke for minutes following a KO. There will be plenty of other situations going on immediately surrounding me that will need attention. Hence, after a KO using a weapon, M4 or knife, etc., to finish the enemy so that I can move on and accomplish the mission. 2. On a battlefield, the desired effect is ending the fight. If I applied this improperly and killed him, so be it, I saved a round. This may not be the approved method in less-than-lethal scenarios, but usually ROE permits lethal force if your life is in danger (and rolling around in H2H with weapons at hand is almost always that). Now talking about what we teach the soldiers is a matter of POI. What is allowed to be taught to privates vs. what we think should be taught. This is one of the never ending battles in a BCT environment. Unfortunately, some of the DS's don't know what they are doing, and teach things that are wrong. This boils down to a unit responsibility. Eventually, there will be enough qualified instructors to do the job adequately.
6/30/04 9:53 AM
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gubbs
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Edited: 30-Jun-04
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"We recommend at least two or three month between level I and II to get the best benefit. That is assuming that you are teaching what you learned in Level I in the mean time. So come on back. Let me know if you need any help getting back." Thanks for the info SFC Larsen. I will let you know if I need any assistance.
7/9/04 4:51 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 09-Jul-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 312
"Chokes are the ultimate equalizer and can easily be practiced safely." Yes, only under good supervision. They are only safe if you know how to control it. 254, I'm not talking about battle, I'm talking about your last point. The unit is responsible for the DS performance, like I tell my DS in my unit, if you don't know or are not sure about it, DONT DO IT!! Safety First!!! CPT Rodriguez U.S. Army, Aviation Rangers Lead The Way... Aviation Takes them There!!!
7/9/04 8:29 PM
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Whatever254
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Edited: 09-Jul-04
Member Since: 06/06/2002
Posts: 819
I guarantee everything I teach my soldiers is correct. In time, my colleagues will learn as well. It just takes time, and Modern Army Combatives is still very new in the grand scheme of things.

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