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SoldierGround >> Combatives Phase 2


7/11/04 12:09 PM
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SFC Matt Larsen
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Edited: 11-Jul-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 134
The largest obstacle to having an army full of Soldiers who are proficient hand-to-hand fighters is the difficulties in producing a cadre of competent instructors. This is why we have developed a systematic train the trainer program that among other things teaches about chokes. Easily the second largest obstacle is overcoming the naysayers at every level. The bottom line on choking is that it has a better safety record than football tackling. Every year in America there are several deaths from tackling in football. There are no deaths from choking in judo. Both are taught and conducted under the supervision of competent authority. Choking is simply safer. Can you kill someone with a choke? Of course you can, if you want to and are willing to hold onto it for several minutes after your enemy has been rendered unconscious. Does that mean that Choking cannot be safely taught to Soldiers? Does the danger that Soldiers will kill each other during horseplay after having learned to choke the enemy out way the benefits of having Soldiers who can choke the enemy? The answer on both is of course not.
7/14/04 11:42 AM
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killer rabbit
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Edited: 14-Jul-04
Member Since: 04/20/2004
Posts: 74
Of course, the fact that chokes can be somewhat dangerous is why you teach students to TAP OUT when they know the choke is on and can't effectively fight it. Only an idiot fights a choke to unconsciousness every time. (Though once or twice to know what it feels like to be passing out can be instructive). Armbars break arms, and some foot locks can cause serious damage as well. Ensuring that students tap out appropriately is key. As applies to a real conflict, you are breaking that arm, shredding that knee, or choking the opponent out whether they tap or not! Good point that correct knowledge should be passed on, but students shouldn't be afraid of getting choked in practice either.
8/18/04 2:00 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 18-Aug-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 425
This is why we have developed a systematic train the trainer program that among other things teaches about chokes. Teach them well so they will not make as many mistakes, I hate to correct my instructors about techniques that they just learned at Ft. Benning and I have been using for years. Easily the second largest obstacle is overcoming the naysayers at every level. Constructive critisism, that's all. The bottom line on choking is that it has a better safety record than football tackling. Every year in America there are several deaths from tackling in football. There are no deaths from choking in judo. Both are taught and conducted under the supervision of competent authority. Choking is simply safer. Who's here comparing? certainly not me. Can you kill someone with a choke? Of course you can, if you want to and are willing to hold onto it for several minutes after your enemy has been rendered unconscious. Does that mean that Choking cannot be safely taught to Soldiers? Does the danger that Soldiers will kill each other during horseplay after having learned to choke the enemy out way the benefits of having Soldiers who can choke the enemy? The answer on both is of course not. My point from the beginning, but we can not have the luxury of teaching our soldiers that chokes can not kill, that was the point, the instructor that says that chokes can not kill is WRONG! About holding a choke on the battlefield, which is where we would be applying this technique, I have two points: We are talking about TNG...not battlefield, in the battlefield why do I want to choke anyone if I can stab the bastard or shoot him?? Now talking about what we teach the soldiers is a matter of POI. What is allowed to be taught to privates vs. what we think should be taught. This is one of the never ending battles in a BCT environment. Unfortunately, some of the DS's don't know what they are doing, and teach things that are wrong. This boils down to a unit responsibility. Eventually, there will be enough qualified instructors to do the job adequately. Well SAID!! BTW, two of my DS (I didn't know they had gone through P-1), got their instructor shirts. Sadly, the rule was changed that you have to wait until after the P-2 to get them...after I take P-2 they might change it to P-3...that's O.K. the shirt doesn't make the istructor... CPT Rodriguez Rangers Lead the Way...Aviation Takes them THERE!!!
10/17/04 4:28 AM
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fastlegs
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Edited: 17-Oct-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 188
So if we should not train chokes cause a privant might hold it to long during training or horseplay; then we should not teach them to shoot a weapon either because they might deside to use that training the wrong way.
10/17/04 5:18 AM
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fastlegs
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Edited: 17-Oct-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 189
Having taught a class or two, it sounds like the ds was stating two things 1. in training we can choke each other without physical injury that would keep us from doing our job and also continuing to train. 2. also in war time or on the street we can choke someone, but we still have to be aware that that person we wake up on their own and still be a viable weapon, meaning we have to do something farther as in flex cuffing them to get intell later, on fix the problem in another way, this being of chose now cause i save several seconds to think it over at this point. I dont think the ds was stating that in the end, over long periods of time the person would not die from loss of oxygenated blood to the brain, but that we can train it safely on each other without killing one another. Lets face it their or still people that think dillman can kill people with the tauch of a fingure and some of these people are in our army, so what do you think they are going to say when you say i am going to choke you out. The better problem is that if we dont train these techinues the privates are going to see them somewhere else and then try them in the barackes, which will probably end in an injury. But if we train them daily, which gets rid of them wanting to try it the baracks, teaches them the proper way to apply them so they dont injure each other. Then and only then can we hold them responiable for their actions. final note, if we do not train to do things; we will die on the battlefield be our enemy that has trained them.
10/19/04 2:05 AM
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abn rgr
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Edited: 19-Oct-04
Member Since: 10/01/2004
Posts: 3
Hi, Am in 4/7 at Garry Owen. Can someone tell me if there are any Combatives courses scheduled anytime soon? Thanks, SSG Jim Mahan B Troop 4/7 CAV Vandry BJJ associate
10/21/04 5:58 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 21-Oct-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 521
Fastlegs, you are totally wrong, but I don't have the time to argue with you son. At this time I'm packing to go to Iraq. So learn safely and the right way. BTW get a dictionary!!!
10/29/04 12:46 AM
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kansetsuwaza
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Edited: 29-Oct-04 12:54 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1511
You are all forgetting one very important thing about chokes: It is easier to kill an unconscious person that a conscious person. A choke can take 5 seconds and against untrained opponents chokes can usually be done standing. When a guy is laying on the ground unconscious after 5 seconds of engagement it is easy to kill him in fast and possibly creative manners. Hell, the classic TV commando "neck snap" would probably even work!!! But seriously... As for combatives for military, it should not be alot of guard work at all, it should be top position striking, breaking and pain stuff that can be done easily while being able to get up quickly. A good grappler against an unarmed opponent should only need to go to the ground maybe 25% of the time. I work at the door of a nightclub and rarely get deeply involved on the ground because it is generally easy to take untrained guys out quickly, and I love the ground! The moral: drop the BJJ and get with something combat effective. Takedowns and control, lots of wrestling, standard submission style wrestling and muay thai. Stick and knife fighting as well.
10/29/04 1:13 AM
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kansetsuwaza
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Edited: 29-Oct-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1513
What I am trying to say is that a soldier does not need to be rolling around in the guard going for armbars, and a soldier does not need to 'escape the guard and armbars'. Combat is not a jiujitsu tournament. I can't believe I am saying all of this. A soldier needs good takedowns and takedown defense, good striking, and good basic leg locks and chokes. Alot of outside grappling and standing grappling. A soldier also needs good ground control and positioning, not this high hip up on your knees falling back into an armbar or guard position BJJ stuff. All "combat" submissions should be submissions that do not require loss of position (like triangles and armbars do) and a soldier should be able to get up quickly from the ground. As usual, the military is still behind the times when it comes to combatives. Things are getting a little better, but the book still needs to be rewritten. I am saying this even though I am a technical ground gamer! I spend 70% of my training time working technical groundwork and guard work, but I am not a soldier in combat.
10/30/04 11:51 AM
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fastlegs
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Edited: 30-Oct-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 196
i think you need to contact the combatives school.
10/30/04 4:45 PM
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kansetsuwaza
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Edited: 30-Oct-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1559
I live near MacDill AFB, but would have no clue where to start as far as a military related program goes.
10/30/04 10:57 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 30-Oct-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 530
Fastlegs...why do I need to contact the school for?? The only thing that I need from the school are the diplomas to teach the courses...I know the rest. Plus like I said I'm on my way to Iraq I don't need to argue with you or anybody else I know what I'm talking about!!!
12/4/04 8:52 PM
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Rick T
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Edited: 04-Dec-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 676
I gotta get in on this post just to let y'all know that latinosoy100 aka Captain Rodriguez is currently in Tadji,Iraq (spelling) training the Iraqi army. Best wishes to him and his company. HOOAH!! We await your return brother!!!
12/19/04 3:40 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 19-Dec-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 551
I think the school should call it Ju-Jutsu or BJJ instead of the Ranger Combatives!! I mean, you steal some ideas, incorporate those as part of your team and call it yours?? What about the Navy Seals?? Do they call it Seal Team Combatives or the SF Groups do they call it SF Combatives?? Al pan pan y al vino vino!!!
12/19/04 8:55 PM
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Spc Lee Lohff
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Edited: 19-Dec-04
Member Since: 05/31/2004
Posts: 33
It's not called ranger combatives, it's modern army combatives. Who cares about the name? Also, why do you harp on rangers so much? Grow up, we're all on the same team.
12/20/04 1:39 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 20-Dec-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 557
That it is not what it says on the logo at the Ranger School. Who is "harping" on the Rangers "so much"?? If I do I have the right to do it, son, I'm protected by the constitution on that. Me grow up?? Got to be kidding me, I was a soldier before you were born!!! And yes we are an "Army of One", but not necesarily we're on the same team!!! Most of the rangers that I've met over the past 21 years have a rep of not working well with "no rangers"...that's why I'm "harping" "so much" on them. BTW My first name is SIR for you son.
12/20/04 8:56 PM
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PimpSmack
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Edited: 20-Dec-04
Member Since: 06/18/2004
Posts: 54
Hey Lee - Just let this guy rant and troll. All he's trying to do is suck you into an arguement. Let Matt and the other mods deal with him. I have met many like him and they are not worth your time. Take care of yourself and have a great holiday. ps
12/20/04 11:25 PM
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Yurk
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Edited: 20-Dec-04
Member Since: 06/11/2002
Posts: 495
Fort Bragg Combat MMA
SIR, I don't know about drills, but you sure do piss people off a lot more than 1 week a month and 2 weeks a year! Merry Christmas, and I hope Santa gets you the "instructor" shirt you seem so interested in getting. Yurk
12/21/04 1:20 AM
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DrillSergeant"C"
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Edited: 21-Dec-04
Member Since: 07/07/2004
Posts: 47
ROFLMAO...
12/21/04 11:37 AM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 21-Dec-04
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 558
"Just let this guy rant and troll. All he's trying to do is suck you into an arguement. Let Matt and the other mods deal with him. I have met many like him and they are not worth your time." No, I'm not, I stated my opinion and he came up with conclusions just like you did right now. Trolling in this forum is stating something that it's not the truth, I said that I have met over my 21 years a great deal of ranger qualified and they seemed to work alone not as part of a team. Is that trolling? No, is there anything that Matt or the other mods can do about it?? NO, since I'm not violating any of the rules!!! and if expressing ones opinion is...then the whole forum is violating all the rules!! And number 2, you have not met me, so what are you talking about, pre-judgement? And Yurk, yes, you have a point as a former Co. for a DS Unit I learned a lot from my Ds in how to piss people off, just like my Ds. at Ft. Jackson pissed me off 21 years ago. :) "Merry Christmas, and I hope Santa gets you the "instructor" shirt you seem so interested in getting." Yes, can you get me one?? OOPPS sorry is only for level I, hold on, not, for level II, not, sorry for level II, well, when they make up their minds at the "Modern Combatives" maybe one day, but I'll be retired by then. Merry X-Mas for those of you safely back in the States!!! CPT Rodriguez, Jorge U.S. Army, Aviation "Rangers Lead the Way...Aviation takes them THERE!!!
12/21/04 6:25 PM
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PimpSmack
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Edited: 21-Dec-04
Member Since: 06/18/2004
Posts: 55
Okay I'll make this quick and then I'm done with this. I have the maturity to know when to be the bigger person. A reasonably mature person would know when statements or gestures are intentionally inflammatory. Making the statement... "And yes we are an "Army of One", but not necesarily we're on the same team!!! Most of the rangers that I've met over the past 21 years have a rep of not working well with "no rangers"...that's why I'm "harping" "so much" on them." on this forum can only be construed as intentionally inflammatory. In this context I mean to obtain a specific reaction from the reader. Kinda like this: In my nine (14 wk. OSUT) cycles as a Drill Sergeant at Ft. Benning I taught my commanders many valuable things about training IET soldiers; not how to piss people off. BTW Yurk, know where I can get an instructor shirt? ps
12/22/04 3:22 PM
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latinosoy100
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Edited: 22-Dec-04 03:46 PM
Member Since: 11/11/2002
Posts: 560
PS, sensitive to opinions, ah?? Sorry it's a free country!! and I'm fighting to keep it that way!! A friend.
12/25/04 10:08 AM
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Rick T
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Edited: 25-Dec-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 695
Latinosoy100 is in the house BOYEEEEE!!!!
9/2/07 11:12 AM
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DrillSergeant"C"
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Edited: 02-Sep-07
Member Since: 07/07/2004
Posts: 875
I thought this thread died SO LONG ago...
9/2/07 11:45 AM
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YPO
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Edited: 02-Sep-07
Member Since: 02/14/2005
Posts: 85
Mr. Larsen, Who's running the show at Ft. Stewart nowadays. Still a few more months in the sand. Aloha, Randy

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