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PhilosophyGround >> Ayn Rand?


7/7/05 6:03 PM
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FastAndBulbous
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Edited: 07-Jul-05
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"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" The actual quote from the Bible is: "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil." But for anyone who actually thinks that money created evil, she sure zinged 'em!
7/7/05 10:12 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 07-Jul-05
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I like a lot of Rand's philosophy. Like anything else, the hardcore proponents are dogmatic and obnoxious know it alls.
7/8/05 12:35 AM
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Jenny
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Edited: 08-Jul-05
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it varies, FAB, from translation to translation. "Or did you say it's the LOVE of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money—and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.
7/8/05 6:13 AM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 08-Jul-05
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Ayn Rand is not taken seriously, even among people who generally agree with her because her position has been far better defended by a handful of others.
7/8/05 7:55 AM
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FastAndBulbous
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Edited: 08-Jul-05
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"Or did you say it's the LOVE of money that's the root of all evil?" The original says "all kinds of evil", not "all evil". "it varies, FAB, from translation to translation." I thought it was more like different paraphrases.
7/9/05 3:01 PM
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Dogbert
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Edited: 09-Jul-05
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@Jenny: "Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy of life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself." So the happy consumers of the same porn flic share their philosophies of life? What is a valuation of oneself? And shouldn't this depend on the "pool" of women available? "o matter what corruption he's taught about the virtue of selflessness, sex is the most profoundly selfish of all acts, an act which he cannot perform for any motive but his own enjoyment" Ever heard the term "pity fuck"? "It is an act that forces him to stand naked in spirit, as well as in body," You can actually have sex without being completely naked. Do you like men wearing socks while sleeping with u? "The man who is proudly certain of his own value will want the highest type of woman he can find, the woman he admires, the strongest, the hardest to conquer, because only the possession of a heroine will give him the sense of an achievement, not the possession of a brainless slut." Why is any women but a "brainless slut" hard to "conquer"? Have you ever been in love? Women aren't just means to stroke your ego. "Observe the ugly mess which most men make of their sex lives -- and observe the mess of contradictions which they hold as their moral philosophy. One proceeds from the other." So men with a good sex life have comletely consistent metaphysical belief systems? How come I have doubts about that. "Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them." Female producers suffice... "Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money," So the belive that a currency is widely accepted is "not defaulting on a moral principle"?!? "But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich—will not remain rich for long." Bill Gates, George Soros... "Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions—and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth." Just because technology is important doesn't mean that physical labour isn't necessary. How about technology AND physical work? "Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values." Of course the greenbuck seems to work without any gold behind it... Practically everything Rand says (with not so minor exceptions) has some vague aspect that is true. But literally it is all bullshit and deductions based on it are usually complete crap. What one deduces from ten halftruths is usually less then half true...
7/9/05 10:10 PM
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Jenny
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Edited: 09-Jul-05 10:18 PM
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god! why the attitude? "So the happy consumers of the same porn flic share their philosophies of life? i'm pretty sure she's talking about real people. "What is a valuation of oneself?" don't have a clue? aren't you supposed to be like....really super smart? And shouldn't this depend on the "pool" of women available?" maybe. on gilligan's island. "Ever heard the term "pity fuck"?" yes. but i can't imagine the sort of charitable mind it would take to go through with it. "You can actually have sex without being completely naked. Do you like men wearing socks while sleeping with u?" avoiding the point. intentionally, i think. and i don't wear socks, but that's just me. "Why is any women but a "brainless slut" hard to "conquer"? i am not really comfortable with the word "conquer" in this context. "Have you ever been in love? Women aren't just means to stroke your ego." yes. and i know that. "Observe the ugly mess which most men make of their sex lives -- and observe the mess of contradictions which they hold as their moral philosophy. One proceeds from the other." "So men with a good sex life have comletely consistent metaphysical belief systems? How come I have doubts about that." you know what i thought about when i read that paragraph -- rand's, i mean? "they want a lady in the street but a freak in the bed." to be slutty -- but only for YOU, and to have come across such skills without the assistance of any other man. you preclude your statement of doubt with a mischaracterization. that's probably why. "Female producers suffice..." ridiculous. c'mon. So the belive that a currency is widely accepted is "not defaulting on a moral principle"?!? is it? how? i don't understand. "Bill Gates, George Soros..." do you REALLY think they're SORRY? would you be? "Just because technology is important doesn't mean that physical labour isn't necessary. How about technology AND physical work?" i agree with you. but our agreement doesn't make her statement any less true, does it? "Of course the greenbuck seems to work without any gold behind it..." not as well as it would WITH gold behind it. and not at all when it's based on non-existent labor. "But literally it is all bullshit and deductions based on it are usually complete crap." we differ.
7/10/05 4:45 PM
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Dogbert
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Edited: 10-Jul-05
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"god! why the attitude?" The attitude! Why god? "i'm pretty sure she's talking about real people." Porn IS consumed by real people! Is that a big shock to your morals? "don't have a clue? aren't you supposed to be like....really super smart?" Of course, but I´m not a psychic. "maybe. on gilligan's island." So if you have lost both legs in a car accident and aren´t fucking supermodels, your self esteem is too low? "yes. but i can't imagine the sort of charitable mind it would take to go through with it." And how should this depend on what you can imagine. I cannot imagine that anyone likes Ayn Rand. See? "avoiding the point. intentionally, i think. and i don't wear socks, but that's just me." There is no point. Intentionally, I think. "am not really comfortable with the word "conquer" in this context." Ayn is. "yes. and i know that." To bad men only want you to get "a sense of achievement". At least that´s what Rand thinks. "you know what i thought about when i read that paragraph -- rand's, i mean? "they want a lady in the street but a freak in the bed." to be slutty -- but only for YOU, and to have come across such skills without the assistance of any other man. you preclude your statement of doubt with a mischaracterization. that's probably why." Yeah. How can I be dumb enough to think "philosophy of life" means more than wether you prefer sluts or virgins or whatever. "do you REALLY think they're SORRY? would you be?" Both have views on distributional justice which are slightly to the left of Rand. And both have acted on that beliefs. "i agree with you. but our agreement doesn't make her statement any less true, does it?" well, Rand wrote "and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth." You can interpret that as saying that "mind is sufficient" or as "mind is necessary". We agree that the first one is wrong. But she says that physical labor isn´t "the root of production" so both are rule out. Nothing left. Logic wins, Rand loses. "not as well as it would WITH gold behind it. and not at all when it's based on non-existent labor." Money does exist so it isn´t based on, whatever that may mean, "nonexistant labor". And that the gold standard is superior to the Fed system is a view that relates to modern economics like the impetus theory to modern physics. "we differ." I´m glad about that. BTW: Jenny, weren´t you supposed to be a leftist? That´s how I remembered you from the ol days on the Og.
7/10/05 5:17 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 10-Jul-05
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Everyone likes Ayn Rand until they read her opponents..:)
7/10/05 6:52 PM
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Jenny
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Edited: 10-Jul-05
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yeah, you're smart, alright. and that's how i remembered YOU. i must have missed your responding like a typical OG know-it-all asshole, though, or i wouldn't have been surprised/bothered with the first line of my previous post. i thought about looking up the "impetus theory to modern physics" but no doubt it would fly right over my head. i didn't post those excerpts expecting everyone would agree with every word -- i myself do not. i thought i might learn something from those who disagreed, even -- but that kind of sharing is beyond this forum. no sense in continuing to go 'round and 'round. you win. you make the suggestions, sanguine cynic, and i'll read the books. but i will still like her, leftist or not.
7/11/05 1:24 AM
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Jenny
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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who wrote this? "Please, feel free to express yourself truthfully here without the fear of scorn or ridicule; knowing that your thoughts thrown into the collective maelstrom of seeking truth, adds its own individual flavor. The courage to speak must be matched with the wisdom to listen. Lets make this a place for all of us to open each others minds."
7/11/05 11:05 AM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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Jenny, Don't feel ridiculed. I am very glad that you are posting here. Seriously. Well like I said, Ayn Rand isn't much read by philosophers, as they read other people who have stated the same principles, just a whole lot better and more rationally then her. Such as Robert Nozick and libertarianism. I'm sure you can find countless anti-libertarian literature everywhere, John Rawls from a political philosophical standpoint..and then there are plenty of economists who show that libertarianism is not the best thing for business. Ethical Egoism, her moral philosophy is also not taken too seriously.. Here is a link with a good overview of it http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/Egoism.html a favorite and practical argument against ethical egoism(the doctrine that everyone should act in their own self interest) Suppose I am an ethical egoist, so I believe that everyone ought to act for his/her own benefit. Say Terry wants to have sex with you, and you're thinking about it, but you're not really sure it's a good idea, so you and Terry discuss it. Suppose Terry knows it would be better for you if you didn't sleep with Terry; but Terry also thinks it would be in Terry's interest if you did. Now you ask Terry what you should do. What answer does Terry give, supposing Terry is an ethical egoist? Remember Terry's view is that everyone ought to act to benefit him/herself. Does Terry give you the advice that benefits you or the advice that benefits Terry?
7/11/05 12:05 PM
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Jenny
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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no. in fact, this really made me laugh: "He who refuses to smoke is therefore an enemy of ideas and of the mind." "...can't you see the hatred of life in every bar of their music." then Terry's answer would be self-serving. i understand that Rand doesn't allow for charity -- and i can understand it, except where children and the elderly and/or handicapped are concerned. it is in my nature to be giving -- but, you know, to each his own. i was not upset with bill gates before he started giving away bags of money. wal-mart is a different story, and i can't understand myself there. sexual charity is beyond my understanding. i will look at your website later. thank you for responding.
7/11/05 1:26 PM
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Dogbert
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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"who wrote this? 'Please, feel free to express yourself truthfully here without the fear of scorn or ridicule; knowing that your thoughts thrown into the collective maelstrom of seeking truth, adds its own individual flavor. The courage to speak must be matched with the wisdom to listen. Lets make this a place for all of us to open each others minds.'" I thought ridiculing the writings of Rand is ridiculing her thoughts, not yours. gusto: ...and her arguments leave a lot to be desired Jenny: I disagree. [huge copy and paste] And my response to that copy and paste (I do agree with you that you do disagree with gusto...) adressed only the points Rand made. You started the snippy personal attacks: "don't have a clue? aren't you supposed to be like....really super smart?" Personal attacks and copy and paste overkill- the OG way of arguing. "This forum is for the searchers of truth, the cynics, the idealists, and anyone who has the desire to burrow deeper than the surface of any matter, hoping to catch a glimpse of its essence." ;-)
7/11/05 2:27 PM
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Jenny
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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so...you wrote it? you addressed me, dogbert. did you mean to "discuss" it with me or did you expect i would somehow channel Rand?
7/11/05 2:58 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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Dying Breed wrote it I think.
7/11/05 3:11 PM
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Dogbert
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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Yes, it was Dying Breed. My experience with randroids on the OG is that they copy and paste stuff without any interest of following up. Rands writings are dangerous political propaganda and I teatedit like that. It doesn matter where it comes from, I think one mustn´t allow this to stand uncommented. I´m not all to happy with the opening page. It ignores analytical philosophy. We also discuss ideas written by "other women" here.
7/11/05 3:27 PM
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Jenny
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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randroids = cute! i have not seen these posts. i wish i could do something similar with nietzsche. 'cause the OG looooooves that guy. to tell you the truth, i have never been especially fond of women philosophers -- but i was not a serious student of the subject; no doubt i missed a lot.
7/11/05 5:21 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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"there are plenty of economists who show that libertarianism is not the best thing for business." -I don't know about this. Economics is one of the few areas of acedamia where libertarianism is king.
7/11/05 10:30 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 11-Jul-05
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RoninGear, I was under the impression that while most are capitalists, complete separation of business and state is not. I.E monopolies, horrendous working conditions,people too rich while others too poor etc.
7/12/05 1:56 PM
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Dogbert
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Edited: 12-Jul-05
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Jenny: I actually thought that Rand is popular on the OG for the same reason that Nietzsche is popular: It is pure macho philosophy. There aren´t many well known "classical" philosophers, bu some women play an important role in contemporary philosophy.
7/12/05 8:21 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 12-Jul-05
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Dogbert, You don't like Nietzsche?
7/13/05 3:14 PM
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Dogbert
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Edited: 13-Jul-05
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I think he makes some good points but says some very stupid things too. And he doesn´t take him as seriously as he is taken.
7/14/05 12:38 AM
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Jenny
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Edited: 14-Jul-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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yes, he does. and one can only hope he does not. you guys are alright. i forget about these sub-forums. i will try to remember to check in once in awhile.
5/6/11 8:32 AM
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Subadie
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Member Since: 10/9/04
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Anybody hear Steven Colbert's lengthy criticism of Ayn Rand's worldview yesterday ? Good stuff

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