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TMA UnderGround >> Street fighting - Who trains 4 it?


10/20/04 3:37 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 20-Oct-04
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I'll tell you right now, I don't.

Why would I? I don't get in bar fights. I don't pick or accept challenges from drunk idiots. I haven't thrown a punch in anger or defense since high school.

"But, Willybone, what if you get jumped?"
Jumped? You mean assaulted?
If someone jumps me, they're going to get cut, right quick. I never leave the house without a blade very close to my right hand, and often a second one somewhere near my left. I may not cut to kill, but blood streaming off your forehead into your eyes will ruin a gameplan.

"Sometimes a man's gotta stand up for..."
Yeah, bar fighting, I got it. I don't do it. If some drunk or beligerent idiot wants to prove his badass nature. He can do it somewhere else. I feel no shame in walking away from dumb people. In fact, it usually improves my mood.

I ask this because we often hear that MMA is better that TMA "for the street". I propose that neither is anywhere near as effective as a sharp knife or can of mace and just a little practice. If you're dead serious about effectively protecting yourself, get a gun.
So, what is the practical purpose of learning "street fighting" in a world where a $5 knife can pretty much instantly negate 5 years of BJJ training?
10/20/04 3:38 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 20-Oct-04
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This is my controversial thread of the month, in an effort to up the traffic around here.
10/20/04 4:37 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 20-Oct-04 04:39 PM
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Good answers to a very leading question.

The best method is to learn how to use your MMA skills to get the attacker off of you and then pull your weapon
I totally agree that gaining distance is key, but here I don't see much wrong with the footstomps, headbutts, and elbows to the gut that I learned in hapkido, if I'm grabbed in a way that impedes my arm. On the ground, it'd take total restriction of my right arm to stop that knife from coming out. I can think of a few positions that would ruin that plan for me, but not too many.

You must also consider the needs of police officers, security officers and bouncers.
This to me is not streetfighting. That's a job. For security professionals, I would definitely recommend a robust program of H2H tactics. I'm thinking more along the lines of regular schmoes like myself.

Kids and teenager can also use MMA skills against the many bullies they encounter.
This, I can also understand, and I often suspect that other people on MMA.tv who are fixated on "street fighting" are very young. In this case, it's better to fight unarmed, definitely. I, too, was young and dumb and eager to knock someone's block off because.... Well, I didn't really need a reason back then.
Maybe I was lucky, but TKD served me well enough in high school. I learned to punch hard enough in the right spot to put someone down the two times I was put in that situation.

I like your level-headed answers, though.
I put this up, because while I agree with some people that TMAs can be viewed as antiquated in terms of unarmed combat, there are also schools of thought that say that ALL forms of unarmed combat are antiquated in terms of violent conflict.
In a way, we're all training for something that's of little practical use in the big scheme of life for most of us.
10/20/04 5:35 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 20-Oct-04 05:48 PM
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Willy-The only problem with your theory is that it is illegal to escalate to a blade and cut someone, without fearing for your life. 1-I have brandished a knife (in London of all places 17 years ago)to stop a mugging. Guy following me and my girl. 2-I know of another incident where brandishing stopped a mugging. The mugger had a knife out first. 3-I have used ju jitsu on two guys that grabbed me. 4-Having good self defense skills makes you more aware of the universe of possibilities of things that can happen to you. The idea is to react instinctively and appropiately to whatever threat occurs. 5-I know of a rape that was prevented because of proper training. 6-I know of a mugging that was prevented with one punch. I think that the bottom line as always is to be well rounded.
10/20/04 5:57 PM
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beernight
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though I do argee, a can of mace can hurt as well as a knife. But not trying to "cut to kill" may turn into a "I wasn't trying to slit his throat, I was trying to slit his forehead" And really its not the art that will save you it is the individual.
10/20/04 6:08 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 20-Oct-04 06:20 PM
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Drat. You would have to show and spoil my thread with reason, e.kaye. I was wondering if any of the other weapon forum folks would see this, because its some excellent posts on that forum that made me think of this.

You are, of couse, totally correct. There is unlawful escalation and I would have to take into account the possibility of legal repercussions should I take a knife out first. The same could be true for slamming someone's head into the pavement with a takedown or holding a choke too long.
The whole idea of going to jail because of a fight, armed or not, is just one of the reasons I avoid machismo fights.

I also agree that awareness is the most important skill in keeping yourself safe. In this, though, I don't see MMA being much better than TMA, though. Although I thought some of the techniques they showed were pure bunk, I did like the constant repetition of being grabbed in my TMA training. I honestly felt like I was ingraining a habit of footstomping, headbutting, and whatnot instinctively. I'm unlikely to try a complicated wristlock in reality, but some of the other stuff was good.

Being well-rounded is key, but in relation to my soapbox point, is studying MT and BJJ really well rounded in the larger, practical scheme of life? Wouldn't a focused plan of simple, practical self-defense moves and weapon usage yield more practical results in a shorter period of time for the average person?
Isn't purely unarmed combat, in general, a fairly antiquated concept?


BTW, thank you for including two "only needed a knife" examples with the others. That does help partially illustrate my point.
10/20/04 6:14 PM
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Willybone
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"I wasn't trying to slit his throat, I was trying to slit his forehead"
Or the idiot could decide he doesn't need medical attention and then bleeds to death from a forehead cut.
I would advise the same caution to anyone thinking a big pavement slam or a choke out is a good fight ender.

Like e.kaye said, you need to be able to convince a jury you believed your life to be in danger.


I gotta make more controversial threads. This works pretty well.
10/20/04 6:17 PM
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beernight
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I remember I went to another TMA school to try it out and they did the grabbing slf defense stuff and did like 30 moves to the fingers, 24 to the arm and 45 different stomps to "make sure you come out alive" lol that is why TMA gets a bad rep. Keep it simple and effective. As you mentioned.
10/21/04 11:18 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 21-Oct-04
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You have to be open to learning strikes (open hand so that the closed fist taught in TMA does not break your hand), kicks (low kicks so you don’t wind up slipping) throws

Interesting. I think your TMA experience was a little different than mine. We spent a great deal of time on learning reactions to various grabs, chokes, and shoves that included shinkicks, open hand to the nose, headbutt to nose, knee to the groin, and other things that I thought were pretty practical. Granted, we also learned spearfinger to the throat, wristlocks, and other things I would have much less confidence in, but we did learn some good ones.
This kind of instinctive non-sportive reactions to very non-sportive attacks is the kind of thing I didn't think most MT and BJJ schools covered. I say most because I like Royce's contributions to this kind of training, which look a lot like the same kind of stuff we learned in hapkido.
Does your BJJ or MT school spend time on practicing techniques that would be definitely illegal in the ring or on the mat? Headbutting, nutpunching, and the like? I've never been in a BJJ or MT class, so I'm asking anyone else?

“you are never gonna get jumped unless you do something to deserve it first “
Coming from someone named Assault&Battery, this worries me...
I also think that sometimes a person's just crazy and you get picked for reasons unknown.
10/22/04 12:50 PM
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Edited: 22-Oct-04
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I teach it and train it and used it. Suffice to say that training this so-called "streetfighting" mode is really more mental than anything. I know that's a cliche', but a lot of it is mental. the times I've used it the trouble found me even AFTER I said "dude, I have no problems with you, please leave me alone" and the guy STILL assaulted me. I took care of matters the way I was trained, but I don't look for these things. A classmate of mine recently took care of a carjacker who was trying to rob his car. KO'd him, then called the cops. My point about my classmate and I is that we both train for the "streets", for "assault" scenarios...not because we look for these scenarios (the way a bjj practitioner looks for grappling competitions), but because these scenarios often find US unawares. That's why I teach it and train it: so that my students and I are prepared for those unwanted scenarios that could very well cost us our health and our lives. Not all "street" scenarios are juvenile bar fights that you can just walk away from.
10/22/04 1:03 PM
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juszczec
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Edited: 22-Oct-04
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Willybone "I ask this because we often hear that MMA is better that TMA "for the street"." Fact is, the people who say this refer to the harder training methods used in MMA vs McDojo TMA. "So, what is the practical purpose of learning "street fighting" in a world where a $5 knife can pretty much instantly negate 5 years of BJJ training?" Although I agree a weapon and some know how is the easiest way to get yourself out of trouble, one size does not fit all. Certain attacks do not justify, under law, pulling a gun or a knife. Assuming you can get to it fast enough. Mace? Don't spray it into the wind and don't miss. Mark
10/22/04 2:01 PM
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juszczec
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Willybone "Being well-rounded is key, but in relation to my soapbox point, is studying MT and BJJ really well rounded in the larger, practical scheme of life?" IMNSHO study a method/methods that gives you striking and grappling. Boxing/judo, karate/wrestling, MT/BJJ whatever combination you want as long as you can hurt them by hitting them, throwing them, choking them and breaking their joints. The key is the intensity of the training method after you learn how to perform the striking/grappling techniques. The more intense the training, the better the result. "Wouldn't a focused plan of simple, practical self-defense moves and weapon usage yield more practical results in a shorter period of time for the average person?" Ultimately, that's what all MA training should be. Show you a wide range of techniques, pick and choose those that are a good fit for you. Drill those techniques as often and intensely as possible. "Isn't purely unarmed combat, in general, a fairly antiquated concept?" As long as there are pissed off unarmed people it won't be. Seriously, a quick check of the numbers of unarmed assaults would shed light on this. Mark
10/22/04 3:28 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 22-Oct-04
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Nice answers.

Not all "street" scenarios are juvenile bar fights that you can just walk away from.
Sure, but what percentage of fights fall into that range of "unprovoked assault with clearly no threat to my personal safety"? Below that range, I can walk away. Above that range, it's life or death. Even in that range, not all useful unarmed techniques are safe to use without fear of unlawful force.
While I admit these things happen, I think it's more rare than an avoidable fight or a threat to my (or my family's) life. This is just intuition on my part, though, and I have no hard numbers proving it.


"Isn't purely unarmed combat, in general, a fairly antiquated concept?"
As long as there are pissed off unarmed people it won't be.

My emphasis here is the "purely" part. Sometimes, I view training in ONLY unarmed combat akin to training only standup or only groundfighting. It's turning a blind eye to the way many unavoidable conflicts go.
10/22/04 3:40 PM
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Edited: 22-Oct-04
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WB: the fact that these scenarios are UNlikely is what makes them dangerous. You don't expect them, therefore you don't prepare for them. And this unpreparedness is caused by the perception that such scenarios are unlikely. Interesting dynamic, huh? You can walk away from a lot; it's those few that follow you, despite your efforts to be non-violent, is what this training is for.
10/22/04 3:40 PM
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Ogami Itto
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I train for the streets. The mean streets of Edo, circa 1780. No street application in kendo that I know of! But seriously, my hand-to-hand is very basic and I hope and pray I never get into with anybody, because the only reason I would is to defend myself or my loved ones, and then, it's on.
10/22/04 3:59 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 22-Oct-04
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Kendo is great for the street. You can apply all of the strikes to either the cane or the umbrella. Two items you can take anywhere. Just remember that not all canes and umbrellas are created equal.
10/22/04 4:02 PM
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Edited: 22-Oct-04
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Then again, I live in NYC, so that certainly contributes to it. Not the criminal hotbed it used to be, but crime still happens here. It's a big city; stuff happens here all the time.
10/24/04 9:05 AM
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Edited: 24-Oct-04
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good points cossack.
10/24/04 12:54 PM
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juszczec
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Cossack2 Your criticisms of how TMA is taught is pretty accurate. TMA instructors have a bunch of tools available and many do a crappy job using them to develop fighting ability in their students. "I submit that unless one can grapple he only knows about 25% of what he needs for a street fight which often winds up on the ground." Although I dislike generalizations and percentages, you are correct. The more versatile you are the better. "One thing I have read many of you mention is the fight you can “walk away from.” I would like to explore if that is always wise." In general, yes it is. You can't get sued, you can't get arrested, you can't get hepatitis, you can't get hurt blah blah blah. "If you go to school or work with a bully who continues to challenge or abuse you won’t he see your walking away as a sign of weakness to be exploited?" Challenge me how? Touch me and I'll make you stop. Verbally abuse me? "Shut the fuck up asshole" seems to get good results. "Maybe standing and fighting will end this bullies rein of terror over the whole school/workplace." Maybe. But if you wind up getting charged with assault, is it worth it? "This is where grappling/thowing arts are great. Instead of punching his face off you can merely throw him to the ground and humiliate him." Assault is still assault. I don't think the law makes any allowances for striking, throwing etc. Also, why do you think throwing is safe? Striking, best case, you'll get all your weight behing the strike and some of his (if he's moving toward you). Throw and you have his weight and your weight assisted by gravity landing on his head/body supported by an unyielding surface. "My point is that there are varying degrees of force and fights. Just a thought. " Agreed. But, you never know what kind of reaction the other guy is going to have when struck, thrown, choked or locked. Worst case, he dies and I've got to answer for it. If that's the case, I'm gonna be damn sure all my options are gone. Mark
10/26/04 9:36 AM
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juszczec
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Cossack2 "My concern is that he will escalate his bullying. If he is sneaky he may damage your property, sabotage your work, etc." These can be concerns and there are numerous ways of handling them. Damage something I own and I'm going to the cops. Screw up my work and I'm going to the boss. These folks get paid to deal with assholes. "I am wondering if there are prudent ways to tell him you want to settle the issue." Only if there are no witnesses. I won't go into the morality of this; everyone needs to decide what they are comfortable with. I'll admit there are people in our lives who need a good ass kicking. Were the laws different, I may agree a pre-emptive beating is a good way to go. Fact is, all I can do is live within the rules as they exist today. "Most bullies are intimidated by someone who stands up for themselves." Yes. The more crazy you can make them think you are, the less they'll screw with you. "I think that most bystanders will usually see punching someone as more threatening than rolling him to the ground." Yeah, but take it a step further. You throw him on the ground, he calls the cops, bystanders say "Yes he threw him on the ground". That's assault, doesn't matter if the bystanders say it wasn't threatening. Your troubles escalate if the guy got hurt from the landing or lies to the cops about what's going on. "I but I just hate to see a bully go through life doing what he or she does without getting challenged on it. Perhaps you are right and there is no way to deal with this." Unfortunately, sometimes you can't do anything about something that sucks. Also, don't think about teaching a bully a lesson so they leave others alone, "others" can take care of themselves and are unlikely to help you out anyway. Also, all the bully will learn is to leave YOU alone. There are numerous ways to deal with a bully. The consequences of the most personally satisfying one are too great for me to indulge in it. I do however draw a line, but until it gets crossed I've got to rely on other means. If only to keep the SOB from getting to live in my house while I support him. Mark
10/26/04 12:23 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 26-Oct-04
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The trial has started for the Atienza student that killed the bouncer here in NYC. He escalted to a knife right of the bat. One thrust to the groin and the 6'6" 365 pound bouncer bled out. His lawyer is calling him a hero, saying that he was defending his friend from being choked by the huge bouncer. I did not know this, but Atienza was arrested as an accomplice. He evidently helped dispose of the bloody clothes. He pled to a misdemeanor and is a witness for the prosecution.
10/29/04 10:23 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 29-Oct-04 10:28 AM
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The trial has started for the Atienza student that killed the bouncer here in NYC. He escalted to a knife right of the bat.

I suspect this fight was totally avoidable, and another case of drunken machismo gone out of control.


Which Atienza, BTW? Aren't there several of them?
10/29/04 4:33 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Edited: 29-Oct-04
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Just by the way, I don't think kendo is so great for the street. It doesn't teach you how to use a stick, it teaches you how to use a sword. You assume that if you get a cut in, fight's over, at most you may have to cut again only once more. Not so the stick, right? Where you keep clubbing til your man's down? My point is a stick and a sword do not function the same way. In a fight, I'm relying on my hand-to-hand training. Course I might try to crack yer dome with my bokken, too, whatever works.
11/1/04 3:15 PM
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bigbrawler
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Edited: 01-Nov-04
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A knife won't work like a stick. I agree but I will take a stick over a knife any day. You don't get the same reaction from the police when you say so then I clubed him with a stick versus then I pulled my switch on him. Also on more then one ocasion my friend jullio has defended himself from people with nothing but a pool que. in one situation against a knife, imagigin fsf teaching you to use a stick to defend yourself. Also a stick can beat somone uncounsiense (sp) were as a knife use will cut somone and it might not look bad at the small cuts can cause people to bleed to death. well theres my two bits.
11/2/04 11:35 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 02-Nov-04
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BB, I hear that. The knife is easier to carry everyday, but if I had my druthers, I'd actually carry a cane or collapsable baton.
Ironically, it's illegal to carry a baton here in NYC but legal to carry a more easily concealed, deadlier folding knife.

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