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Weapons UnderGround >> SCA vs Escrima


11/19/04 4:22 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 19-Nov-04
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 5
 
Okay, I recently read about a stick fighting tournament where no one wears any armor, I am in the SCA and we fight with sticks and wear a full suit of armor, if we didnt, just about every good shot would lead to a critical injury, does this mean that the SCA is tougher than these tournaments or maybe I am missing somthing?
11/19/04 4:22 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 19-Nov-04
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 6
Okay, I recently read about a stick fighting tournament where no one wears any armor, I am in the SCA and we fight with sticks and wear a full suit of armor, if we didnt, just about every good shot would lead to a critical injury, does this mean that the SCA is tougher than these tournaments or maybe I am missing somthing?
11/22/04 10:39 AM
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theMachine23
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Edited: 22-Nov-04
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Hi David, Good questions, and until I started training in Sayoc Kali and Sayoc Fighting Systems I thought the same thing. However, I think if you are willing to open your mind, and watch the "Scenarios" section of the Sayoc Stickgrappling DVD (see www.sayoc.com), you will see that strikes that you might think would cause critical injury, indeed do not. We fought with 3/4" thick rattan, and there were only minor injuries (bruises, etc). It would be different if we were using metal pipes, where a strike to the head would more likely cause a KO. Fighting with armor changes the dynamics of a fight. There is much less "at stake". Don't get me wrong, I believe it is very useful training, and our training includes it as well as ActionFlex (padded stick) sparring. Nevertheless, "just about every good shot would lead to a critical injury" is analagous to a Karate one-punch KO...which indeed can happen, but how often do you see this in competition/a "live" situation? I have sparred an SCA guy with a staff; he had some really nice moves. He was tough and fighting him was not easy.
11/22/04 11:19 AM
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theMachine23
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Edited: 22-Nov-04
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Allow me to update/expand: When I fought the SCA guy, it was with padded staffs, and no armor. It was only at the beginning of my Sayoc stick training. He's a cop too and does a lot of baton work. He's got good grappling too. Until I sparred him I didn't know too much about SCA, except that I thought it was more like medieval fighting, with shields and such, and the sticks simulating swords/axes. I recommend you check out the DVD, and/or come to one of Tuhon Tom Kier and/or Tuhon Felix Cortes' seminars. I can only describe Sayoc training in one way: it will blow your mind, rock your world, and change your life. The great thing about it is that you can quickly assimilate things you already know and use it all together. The training methods and teaching style is quite unique.
11/22/04 11:26 AM
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theMachine23
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Edited: 22-Nov-04
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Two more notes: 1) You titled this thread "SCA vs Escrima". The fights were sponsored by Sayoc __Kali__/Sayoc Fighting Systems, just for clarification. I don't know the difference between Escrima/Kali/Arnis, but I know there have been heated debates about the terms. 2) You asked: "does this mean that the SCA is tougher than these tournaments or maybe I am missing somthing?" I would be hard-pressed to believe people fighting with armor are tougher than those fighting without. You fight how you train; if you fight in armor, what if someone attacks you when you get out of your car, and you grab your ASP or your ice scraper? You don't have time to put on your armor. If you had to choose between having previously trained without armor...wouldn't you want to? The only way to find out...is to fight. Granted, my experience is quite limited, I just recommend you check it out. Given the choice between fighting an SCA fighter and a Sayoc fighter...personally I would rather fight the SCA guy than the Sayoc guy. -Sean Brandt
11/22/04 4:34 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 22-Nov-04
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 7
Thanks for all the great information, I was talking to my friend he was telling me the kali sticks are quite a bit thinner than the SCA sticks, I fight with a 1.5 inch thick stick or so, and it is about 20in long or so, do you think that has anything to do with the fact there are not too many injuries? I will check out the DVD though. Let me rephrase my being tougher comment. The fact that we train in armor I feel forces us to throw much harder shots, I took a solid hit to my knee in a new set of armor that didn't work to well and I couldn't walk the next day, I would have hated to feel that shot if I had nothing there. Also, when you fought the SCA guy were you both using a staff? In our region people fight with spears and glaves, but no one really fights with a staff.
11/23/04 4:06 AM
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Calbert
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Edited: 23-Nov-04
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theMachine23, where and with whom do you train Sayoc Kali/Sayoc Fighting Systems?
11/23/04 6:36 AM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Edited: 23-Nov-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 261
Hello, I have fought (many, many years ago) with some SCA people. All were a lot of fun to train with. One thing you will notice when wearing armor is that you can and will depend on the armor to take shots that can stop you otherwise. It also can lead to a false sense of security in how your technique/tactics work against an unarmored opponent. Sparring with any gear on, whether fencing helmets, WEKAF, Hockey gear, SCA armor etc, is for a practitioners safety. It gives us the opportunity to train at a higher level, but also can develop bad habits that can stifle your progress, in a reality based situation. Sean- Great fights on the DVD!!! Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net
11/23/04 9:41 AM
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theMachine23
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Edited: 23-Nov-04
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David, yes, 1.5" sticks are a lot different. We train with various lengths and thicknesses, but for those particular fights we used ~30" long x 3/4" diameter. You must have one hell of a grip! When I fought the SCA guy, it was with a short staff, like a Jo. Calbert, the school I train at (Butohan) is in Philadelphia. For more information, you can contact Guro Kevin Blake at: kevinblake@sayoc.com. This info is also on the www.sayoc.com website (click on the Licensed Associates link). I consider it a privilege and honor to train with this group! Guro Steve, thanks! I might come up to Eastchester in January for the seminar, hope to see you there.
11/23/04 11:30 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 23-Nov-04
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 9
Is the rattan on that website pretty light? I am looking for some thinner lighter rattan to fight with.
11/24/04 9:12 AM
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theMachine23
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Edited: 24-Nov-04
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there are different thicknesses and lengths of rattan; on sayoc.com they sell "thick" and "thin" sticks.
11/25/04 9:07 AM
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BJJSavate
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Edited: 25-Nov-04
Member Since: 03/10/2002
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SCA fighting was fun, but the best is with two-handed weapons. Here I think the level of "realism" (considering weight, etc) is a little better than the Kali equivalent.
12/1/04 4:11 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 01-Dec-04
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 10
thanks for all the info guys, I think I am going to look in to some of this sayoc stuff, do you by chance know of anything that goes on in colorado? I am in college up here so I cant really travel?
12/2/04 8:21 AM
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TrueFightScholar
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Edited: 02-Dec-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Okay, I recently read about a stick fighting tournament where no one wears any armor, I am in the SCA and we fight with sticks and wear a full suit of armor, if we didnt, just about every good shot would lead to a critical injury, does this mean that the SCA is tougher than these tournaments or maybe I am missing somthing?

Here's an old, classic thread, concerning the SCA:

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=26272&FID=43

12/2/04 6:42 PM
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Robkali
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Edited: 02-Dec-04
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 317
Just to add to the stick size question (i can't believe i just typed that LOL) In Balintawak Eskrima we use a 30" stick thats about 3/4" to 1" diameter. Also along with the SCA armour, they also limit striking surfaces ie: no knees, or wrists (well supposedly these are not allowed LOL). I have done both & immensly enjoyed both - but for realitic training, Filipino arts are my choice, specifically the Balintawak system. just my opinions Rob
12/3/04 6:56 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 03-Dec-04
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 14
Robkali, in your training what kind of armor do you wear, if any? Also I kind of deviated from my origional question so let me rephrase it, in the SCA we wear full armor, in the Sayoc and other fighting systems there are full contact no armor events, wouldnt a good shot to a knee or elbow or wrist in these no armor tournaments potentally blow out the joint? Do the SCA fighters hit harder than the Sayoc fighters or can a body take more than I am led to beleive. Or what are the other factors that lead into this? thanks again for everyones input.
12/7/04 5:59 PM
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Robkali
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Edited: 07-Dec-04
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Well in the SCA (which i havent really participated in for some time - we had "full" armor. Kinda like the WEKAF style stuff with the padded outfit thingy (sorry dont know what they call it) as a gambeson (undergarment) with armor over top. full metal helms, gorget for throat protection, elbow & knee cops, CUP, hockey type gloves or full armor gauntlets. For a look at realistic stickfighting with little-to-no armor, check out the videos on the Sayoc Kali site and also go to www.dogbrothers.com & watch their promo video.
12/8/04 9:49 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 08-Dec-04
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Do the SCA fighters hit harder than the Sayoc fighters or can a body take more than I am led to beleive.
In the no armor events, they're using thin rattan sticks. The amount of bone damage you could really do with those is fairly limited. The SCA weapons I've seen are larger and heavier, generally.
So, I'd say it has more to do with the weapons being used than the power of the players.
1/9/05 10:05 PM
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ottmandus
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Edited: 09-Jan-05 10:24 PM
Member Since: 11/19/2002
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There is armoured combat and unarmoured combat. The SCa does unarmored combat in armour. In other words they were the armour for protection in sparring. Boxers and kickboxers were headgera and gloves when sparring for the same reason so they can train as they fight, full contact. Wearing armour does not make it less real. It's just so you can safely hit harder. There is armoured combat also, where the participants look for holes in the armour to stab through or maces and hammers to hit through the armour True Fight scholar I read the other thread you wrote. I'm in Colorado Springs and I was thinking of joining the SCA here. Do you know of any better more accurate options?
1/10/05 3:40 PM
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theMachine23
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Edited: 10-Jan-05
Member Since: 09/13/2002
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"Wearing armour does not make it less real." I disagree. ANYTHING that is different than what an actual fight would entail makes sparring "less real". Wearing a cup makes it less real. Sparring 1on1 in a school makes it less real; sparring with someone you know makes it less real; etc.
1/12/05 5:23 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 12-Jan-05
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 33
Ottmandus, I am in the SCA in the Ft Collins/Greeley area and I think it is a lot of fun. There are probably a few other ways to go in the case of actual fighting, but the SCA is cost effective (its pretty much free), and I feel it is a great place to learn the basics and get a good work out. There is realistic training like 2 on one fights, Melee fighting, and even wars with hundreds to thousands of people on each side. You cant get that in a martial arts school. And as far as real, I come away after each practice with plenty of bruises... getting hit through my armor hurts almost as much as not wearing any.
1/18/05 9:37 AM
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TrueFightScholar
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Edited: 18-Jan-05 09:40 AM
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Ottmandus, True Fight scholar I read the other thread you wrote. I'm in Colorado Springs and I was thinking of joining the SCA here. Do you know of any better more accurate options? If you're into Medieval & Renaissance military weaponry (the whole "heavy weapons" schtick), then check and see if there is an ARMA (Association of Renaissance Martial Arts) Chapter in your area--I would go with them over the SCA any day. In addition, it would be helpful to cross-train in FMA/eskrima. Considering the similarities between European sword styles and FMA (whether by mutual historical influence, parallel evolution, or both), the FMA can be a great asset in terms of teaching both general body mechanics and specific techniques. If you're into fencing (the whole "light weapons" deal), then I would go with either a sport fencing or classical fencing salle over the SCA. With all due respect to the SCA, I feel that it should be your last option. As was discussed on the other thread, there are apparently SCA groups which take their craft seriously, but they still seem to be bogged down with odd sparring rules and unnecessary role playing nonsense that is better left to the Dungeons & Dragons crowd. Peace, TFS
2/6/05 12:35 AM
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RASBJJ
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Edited: 06-Feb-05
Member Since: 06/26/2004
Posts: 59
any good sites to check out? Im working with a bag and want to just get a groove for working with the sticks...strikes and foot work..

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