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TMA UnderGround >> What is considered a Trad MA


12/10/04 1:47 PM
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emptiedcup
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Edited: 10-Dec-04
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I am a traditional martial artist...I've studied and teach a traditionally based japanese karate system called Mugen Ryu...however..my question to all of you is this...what does tradition mean...does it have to be karate to be traditional...does it have to be japanese or okinawan to be traditional...for instance..i've also studied Muay Thai and teach a muay Thai based system of kickboxing...is Muay Thai traditional in your eyes...r kali and silat traditional...is savate traditional...when does traditional start and stop....just curious on your opinions..thanks
12/12/04 10:28 PM
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ShiroRyu
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Edited: 12-Dec-04
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My 2 cents are that it is traditional if they teach the stuff they taught or teach it the same way they did 100s or 1000s of years ago.
12/14/04 7:51 AM
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juszczec
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Edited: 14-Dec-04
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emptiedcup "what does tradition mean" I'm not sure anyone knows anymore. I think traditional, as far as MA goes, is now a Western marketing term meaning "you'll train the way you think they did hundreds of years ago". IMNSHO, traditional MA is about not dying and should look more like modern MMA than modern TMA does. "does it have to be karate to be traditional...does it have to be japanese or okinawan to be traditional" No. "...for instance..i've also studied Muay Thai and teach a muay Thai based system of kickboxing...is Muay Thai traditional in your eyes...r kali and silat traditional...is savate traditional" IMO, the people that started any give MA were only concerned about survival via efficient technique. If your style is concerned about this, then its traditional. "...when does traditional start and stop....just curious on your opinions..thanks" I don't know where it starts, but it stops when something else becomes more important than learning the most efficient way to subdue an attacker. Mark
12/14/04 9:50 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 14-Dec-04
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I think by using the term "art" in martial arts, you're declaring the subjectivity of the study. Just like in visual art, everyone has an opinion of what is "modern" or "traditional".
Like art, I know it when I see it.
I think Muay Thai is a traditional martial art. Kali/arnis/escrima and silat are. I don't think savate is, though. Boxing and wrestling ride the fence for me.
12/16/04 9:57 PM
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Otsuka
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Edited: 16-Dec-04 09:59 PM
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"My 2 cents are that it is traditional if they teach the stuff they taught or teach it the same way they did 100s or 1000s of years ago." No MA is taught exactly as it was 100s or 1000s of years ago. martial arts only became "stagnant" sometime in the last century. Maybe around the 1940s or so. Before then, martial artists were constantly learning various styles and adding to their own.
12/18/04 8:44 AM
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IndianaBrandon
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Edited: 18-Dec-04
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A traditional martial art is anything that gets in the way of being effectively able to defend yourself. If you could fight better before you started training, your taking a TMA. IMHO
12/20/04 2:36 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 20-Dec-04 02:45 PM
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A traditional martial art is anything that gets in the way of being effectively able to defend yourself.
So Parkinson's is a TMA? Losing a limb is a TMA?

If you could fight better before you started training, your taking a TMA.
Ridiculous. People with no fighting skills do not move into negative skills by increasing their cardio, coordination, flexibility, and balance. Any training is better than nothing.
12/20/04 3:52 PM
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IndianaBrandon
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Edited: 20-Dec-04
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"So Parkinson's is a TMA? Losing a limb is a TMA?" Kind of, but not as bad because you still have another limb to use your superior natural instincts.
12/20/04 3:57 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 20-Dec-04 03:58 PM
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Cute.
12/20/04 6:02 PM
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Bunkou
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Edited: 20-Dec-04
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I was watching an episode of World's Wildest Police Videos a while back. This big pimp attacked a bystander who interfered when the pimp was beating his whore. The bystander turned out to be a karate instructor and KO'd the pimp with a single knife hand to the neck. Pure TMA and obviously effective.
12/20/04 10:30 PM
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IndianaBrandon
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Edited: 20-Dec-04
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I seen that to Bunkou. He was a Combatives teacher, trains totally different than a TMA's. He put that pimp on queer street.
12/22/04 12:25 AM
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Bunkou
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Edited: 22-Dec-04
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Since you "seen" it, you know he was a black belt in karate, took a traditional karate self-defense stance, and attacked with a knife hand -- a traditional weapon not found in Muay Thai, BJJ, or MMA. I'll grant you he's probably been influenced by police defensive tactics training, but so have many of us involved in TMA self-defense.
2/21/05 11:39 PM
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Soho
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Edited: 21-Feb-05
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TMA in this context referst to the styles of "Asian" martial arts taught before the MMA, revolution...and still taught today because some people just don't know any better If you do forms, have fancy names for your kicks and punches and know in your heart that you can't fight because ether you never spar. or you spar with so many fancy rules that it looks nothing like a no- rules match then chances are you are in a TMA. Competive sports like boxing, judo, bjj, mma, Thai Boxing are not and never have been TMA's. However they could become TMA's if not trained correctly. (Like the way many JKD people train Thai Boxing) If you ever go to a BJJ school where the people don't roll very often then they are doing a TMA. Best to grab your stuff and get out of there asap.
2/22/05 10:21 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 22-Feb-05 10:36 AM
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So, another guy who defines TMA as "stuff that sucks".
You'd think there were no seido, shotokan, tang soo do, or karate classes that actually fight.


you spar with so many fancy rules that it looks nothing like a no- rules match then chances are you are in a TMA
Rules, like "no striking", perhaps? Or rules like "no grappling"? BJJ, wrestling, judo, and boxing all have very restrictive rule sets.
2/22/05 11:34 AM
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Soho
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Edited: 22-Feb-05
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I specifically said that they are combat sports. That means they have rules. TKD and TSD can fall into this healthy combat sport category as well. Though the forms and rituals may get in the way. TMA often clam they are the opposite of sport. That they are all about "real" fighting. BJJ is proud to be a sport and it know that it can handle itself outside of the ring as well.
2/22/05 12:33 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 22-Feb-05
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TKD and TSD can fall into this healthy combat sport category as well.
So, by your standards, a TKD school that spars regularly and develops good fighting skills is no longer a TMA?
I'm checking, because I realize I'd assumed you would still consider those TMAs.
2/22/05 12:46 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 22-Feb-05 12:50 PM
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BJJ is proud to be a sport and it know that it can handle itself outside of the ring as well.

Right, and my point is that by using the guideline of "you spar with so many fancy rules that it looks nothing like a no- rules match then chances are you are in a TMA", one might be tempted to think BJJ is a TMA. A pure grappling match, maybe even starting from your knees, is really nothing like a no rules fight at all. However, it does develop fine fighting skills.
Also, BJJ may lack forms, but they do use fancy, foreign words for techniques.

You start off assuming BJJ is not a TMA, but your guideline doesn't really exclude it from that.
2/22/05 12:47 PM
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8LimbsScientist
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Edited: 22-Feb-05
Member Since: 01/06/2004
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Maybe people who know absolutely nothing about TMA shouldn't post on this thread. Saying something like "TMA = useless" just shows your ignorance.
2/22/05 1:45 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 22-Feb-05
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i don't think modern muay thai is that traditional as opposed to the older thai MA's
3/5/05 10:41 AM
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Einar Fridgeirs
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Edited: 05-Mar-05
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The problem with defining what is "traditional" and what is modern is that people have confused "tradition" with "non-effectiveness" and "modern" with "brute-strength" or "brawling". Many consider Judo a traditional martial art when in reality it´s a little over a hundred years old. BJJ, however is modern although it was developed by people a scant one generation younger than the first Judokas Muay Thai is considered a modern, cutting edge striking art even though it has a history stretching back for centuries, but Wing Chun is a TMA although in it´s current incarnation it´s much, much younger than Muay Thai. Boxing and Wrestling are the world´s oldest martial arts, Wrestling in particular has been uncovered on murals stretching back to ancient Egypt and Sumeria. Yet no-one puts the TMA tag on them. That´s because they are simple, sucess-oriented and to the point. When your sole aim is to pin someone or knock them out, you neither want nor need to be fancy. The simplest, most effective techniques, the truly valueable things will rise to the top. Those who prefer elaborate, flashy techniques aren´t really interested is success. They might say they are but they aren´t. They are interested in image. Like someone posted above, you know real art when you see it. You don´t need to know it´s history, it´s theory or it´s lineage. Just ask yourself, are they landing blows? Are they causing damage? Are they executing, say, a takedown effectively against someone who does not want to go down? Are they tapping people out? The modern/traditional martial arts divide is entirely artificial and propagated only by people who need to define their self-worth by putting down those diffrent from them. If someone puts down what you train, either just shrug it off or ask them to spar. Debate does not change reality. The word is not the thing.
4/13/05 8:34 PM
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g0d0fd34th
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Edited: 13-Apr-05
Member Since: 10/10/2002
Posts: 17
Thank you Einar. You just made the most sense about the difference between traditional/modern martial arts. To me there is no such thing as a martial art that isn't traditional. Any art that you practice (Muay Thai, BJJ, Shotokan, Gung Fu) will be practiced the way it's supposed to be practiced. That means the way that it started and that means using tradition. Sure you can mix wrestling with BJJ and use Muay Thai for striking and call it modern, non-traditional martial arts, but in reality, what's not traditional about it.

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