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TMA UnderGround >> Maeda's Jiujitsu?


1/19/05 5:49 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 19-Jan-05 06:12 PM
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E kaye: As in 1984 later? *Is having trouble finding any real history on google of goshin*
1/20/05 3:08 PM
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wayland
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Edited: 20-Jan-05 03:12 PM
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"Keep in mind that years later the Kodokan realized that they had watered down the combative aspects of Judo too much. They created a new self defense ciriculum and called it Goshin Jitsu, not Goshin Judo. I am sure that Maeda was familiar with the difference between a -do art and a -jitsu art. He taught jitsu in Brazil IMO." e-kaye: you are correct in that the goshin jitsu kata was the latest and last kata to be created (i believe in 1956), but the basis for this as reported by the kodokan was to have a more applied self defense kata to reflect the current trends (i: guns and standing defenses)..you see, the other self defence was/is the kime-no-kata which was completed in 1888 and it did not have any handgun defense curriculum and limited defenses from standing assaults (most was done on the knees, reflective of the positions in older japan)..hence the goshin-jitsu was created to be more up to date...not in a response to public debate or challenge from other martial arts...remember at that time, judo was THE martial art, and others like karate, or tae kwon do, were not as popular world wide...judo was the only solely dedicated grappling martial art... my whole point in the whole was judo or jujitsu maeda's background when he taught in brazil is yes and no...yes, the term use of "jujitsu" was more common place (even kano's own written text used the term jujitsu, NOT judo)..so maeda's jujitsu WAS kodokan based,...the style and focus of practice was exclusively that of what kano created and promoted, so, to ignore that truth is an error.. did maeda and others train or were exposed to other jujitsu? yes, and most likely, but the definitve question was/is, how did they train? if they trained with randori against resisting opponents and made use of a gi and belt colour, they most likely did the jujitsu of kano...therefore, i can only conclude that maeda (not to mention the exclusive evidence of him and others like yamashita and tani) were directed from the kodokan to spread japanese culture and kano's jujitsu (judo) world wide one minor semantic clarication, jitsu means "art", do means "way", the reason for addressing it as "way" was to include the high respect and inclusion of the moral fiber/spirit which other "do's" like karate-do, aikido, kendo, iaido, all employ...that being a "spiritual" and/ "ethical" foundation for development and to make it a lifelong and upstanding principle for the students..
1/20/05 3:27 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 20-Jan-05
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I am not ignoring any truths. Nor did I say that he was not teaching any Kodokan style Judo. I just think that he taught more than Kodokan Judo. Since Judo was and still is primarily a throwing art, how is that all the Gracies came away with is the newaza? Maeda taught Carlos for one year. The Gracies are not exactly known for their throwing ability. You would think that a Kodokan Judoka would teach a new student throws first and newaza later. Yet in one year Carlos had some mastery of newaza, which he later taught to his brothers. I just think that in light of the end result and Maeda's experiences both before leaving Japan and in the years traveling the world, he wound up teaching what he came to see as the most practical. All of the wrestling that he did had to have had an influence on him and this style of teaching.
1/20/05 3:40 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 20-Jan-05
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Nishi: I would like to ask you something technical before the story about Kimura. What kind of style of jiu-jitsu was it you learned?

Helio: I remember vaguely that my brother Carlos was learning it from Konde Koma (Kosei Maeda) around 1914. Anyway I was just four years old at that time. To tell the truth, I don't remember well the technique directly taught by Koma. Carlos opened the dojo in Rio when he was 25 years old, and I was watching the techniques that he had learned from Konde Koma. But I kept thinking about what a small and weak man like me should do to win, and developing the theory to control an opponent by technique.

Rorion: It seems my father didn't teach it to anybody in the beginning. But one day he had to teach the training in place of uncle Carlos who was late for the class. My father was only 16 years old yet, but the improvements my father made in the techniques to control an opponent with a minimum power was persuasive enough to satisfy the students. Since it doesn't require power, it makes it possible for you to fight for 20 or 30 minutes. After that, it seems that uncle Carlos left the teaching to my father.

Nishi: That has become the base of Gracie jiu-jitsu of the day, hasn't it? Was a style Mr. Carlos learned from Kosei Maeda centering on "kata"?

Helio: There weren't so many techniques. Most techniques were something mainly based on power. But Konde Koma was always fighting in real fights, so a lot of tricks to win in a real fight were incorporated in his teaching.

Nishi: Striking was also included, wasn't it?

Helio: No, it wasn't included.

Kosei Maeda known by the name of Konde Koma was a judo-ka who got out of Japan to spread Kodokan Judo to the world in Meiji period, and performed an open fight with a different style in each country. (However, Kodokan removed his name from the register in the later years.) But why did he call it jiu-jitsu, not judo in Brazil? Nishi has secretly thought that jiu-jitsu introduced to Brazil might be something like a variant form of judo.

Nishi: Did Mr. Maeda call it jiu-jitsu, not judo from the beginning?

Helio: I heard that Konde Koma called it jiu-jitsu. We didn't even know the word of judo itself until it came into Brazil. At that time (the time when jiu-jitsu was brought by Konde Koma), there were many Japanese immigrants and local people had a friendly relationship with them. I heard that they often helped Japanese people in many ways. So I think he taught us their traditional jiu-jitsu in return for it.

Nishi: When judo came into Brazil, didn't you think it was similar to jiu-jitsu?

Rorion: I have a strong impression about judo that judo is a sport where the objective is to throw the opponent to the ground using power. But I think maybe the original art is jiu-jitsu. When Japan lost in the World War II and America was occupying Japan, they taught the Americans judo, but not jiu-jitsu. In that sense, we were lucky to have been able to come in contact directly with jiu-jitsu first, rather than judo.

Helio: (nodding to what Rorion said) They didn't teach the Americans the mind of the samurai.

Nishi: It doesn't seem that judo itself was completely introduced to you. I wonder if Kosei Maeda introduced something he made up and called jiu-jitsu, or if it had originality as a result of the improvements made by Mr. Helio. It draws my interest very much. Then, when is the start of vale tudo?

Helio: It was not something like vale tudo, but the first fight between different styles was in 1932 when I fought with an American wrestling fighter named Fred Ebert when I had 17 years old. He described himself as a world-class strong fighter

1/20/05 3:50 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 20-Jan-05
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Judo was not primarly a throwing art before WWII.
1/20/05 4:01 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 20-Jan-05
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It was up until 1900.
1/20/05 4:20 PM
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wayland
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Edited: 20-Jan-05
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e-kaye: thanks for that interview, however, my understanding of historical aspects of judo and jujitsu are different... first, judo was NOT a sport at that time, it was (and is today, although know more for its sporting elements) self defense.. second, refer to any texts on jujitsu during the periods of late 1800's to 1920 or so, and you will see judo(jujitsu)as exclusively self defense third, judo was not (ESPECIALLY at that time period 1900-120's) just throwing..it did involve ground fighting, there are numerous texts on judo and jujitsu created in that time that clearly indicate this (in fact, i believe it was much later that judo became more focused on throwing, perhaps after the first world championships held in the mid 1950's)... how did/where did kimura learn his ground fighting? look at videos produced by the kodokan on newaza http://www.hatashita.com/details.php?product_id=85&PHPSESSID=08afe4779a995e7d94b46ccba770616c but more impressively look at the video by Kyuzo Mifune done in black and white, produced in early 1950's (mifune received his 10th dan, the highest dan grade one can obtain in kodokan judo)which clearly demonstrates goshin jitsu (tricks with knive, club, spear, sword, and strikes) and ground fighting with all the tricks clearly seen in bjj (triangles from back, omoplata, spider guard, guard position..mifune also did a much earlier collection called the canon of judo, http://www.hatashita.com/details.php?product_id=162&PHPSESSID=08afe4779a995e7d94b46ccba770616c ...this collection goes into major detail of ground fighting... fourth, no other styles employed free practice randori in regular training to the degree of kano...no other jujitsu style borrowed this concept to the degree gracie jujitsu did.. fifth: can you not see that historical details are missing with helio's interview? he was a kid at the time and what are you going to remember? the cool tricks, or the historical foundation and the moral philosophy behind the tricks? sixth: the is absolutely no evidence of maeda being "kicked out" of the kodokan, this is a myth and speculative by those who know very little about the clearly linked and evidence behind jjj styles and judo's development from...
1/20/05 4:32 PM
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wayland
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Edited: 20-Jan-05
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e-kaye: read this link on my web site about bjj's history: http://www.sisujudo.ca/brazilian.htm it was not written by me at all, it was another bjj enthusiast.. my only beef with bjj is that many followers still cling to the "secret jujitsu" link from japan, when the ONLY link from japan to ANY martial arts was kano jujitsu (judo, which became more widely accepted in the 1920's)...some other noticeable arts such as karate did not even come to completion or world wide attention until the 1920's... remember that kano had domestic influence within japan, he was a polictical influence, a well educated man of physical training, and world wide influence with his belief in physical education through the IOC...judo was not in the Olympics until 1964 and kano himself did not encourage huge sporting events with judo because he feared it would take on that as an identification, rather than the philisophical aspect..(seems he was correct IMO)... in the period of 1890-1910, jujitsu practitioners were sent world wide..maeda was one of them... the only thing correct in the gracie interview is the use of the term jiu jitsu to describe what maeda did..it was and always will be kano jujitsu...
1/20/05 5:15 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 20-Jan-05 09:42 PM
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Thank you for that, Wayland.
1/21/05 11:05 PM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 21-Jan-05
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Maeda did Tenjin Shinyo ryu prior to coming to the Kodokan. At the Kodokan, his main teacher was Yokoyama, a Tenjin Shinyo-ryu man prior to HIS coming to the Kodokan. Neither were Fusen-ryu men, but would have been influenced by Tanabe's stuff (Tanabe was a Fusen-ryu man, and appears in Yokoyama's early 20th century judo book Judo Kyohan). Maeda had left Japan before Kosen judo became popular. He could not have been a Kosen Judo exponent.
1/21/05 11:10 PM
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karasu
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Edited: 21-Jan-05
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are there any pics of Maeda on the web? I really enjoy the old photos of Catch-Wrestlers, Boxers, Judoka, etc., those guys were tough. No fancy fancy supplements and shaving of body hair, just good training and good nutrition. It's too bad Maeda is not alive today to speak his mind on grappling.
1/25/05 2:16 AM
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Ben Reinhardt
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Edited: 25-Jan-05
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"Maeda did Tenjin Shinyo ryu prior to coming to the Kodokan. " So did Kano, as a matter of fact! Tenjin Shin'yo ryu was known for it's osae waza (check out Kashiwazaki's history section in "Osaekomi" from Ippon Books). But it wasn't the type of "modern" ground grappling we do today. Ben R.
1/25/05 2:21 AM
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Ben Reinhardt
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Edited: 25-Jan-05
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Kano was a "ju jitsu man". Kodokan Judo was commonly called "Kano's Ju Jitsu", or "Kano Ryu Jujitsu". In a physical sense, that is exactlty what is was and remains today. Whether or not Maeda studied Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu before arriving at the Kodokan doesn't really matter. Ju Jitsu in various forms was studied at the Kodokan. BJJ, even the old stuff, looks nothing like a traditional Japanese Ju Jitsu. Gracies are great technicians and teachers, but not very good historians. Ben R.
1/25/05 4:00 PM
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wayland
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Edited: 25-Jan-05
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lol at ben, but sadly true...still i think their focus on being practical and trimming the fat, so to speak, demonstrates how remarkable bjj is...so/was is judo and wrestling and boxing IMO
1/26/05 12:51 AM
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Ben Reinhardt
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Edited: 26-Jan-05
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Hey Wayland, glad I gave you a chuckle. The gracies are masters at what they do (other than history)for sure. Ben R.
1/26/05 11:51 AM
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karasu
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Edited: 26-Jan-05 11:52 AM
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I also see BJJ going through a great evolutionary change these past few years. I guess the change has both it's pro's and con's but personally I prefer the old school Gracie Jiujitsu vs. modern sport BJJ.
3/9/05 12:13 AM
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Opash
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
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Obviously only a year training with Maeda, Carlos would have learnt basic ne-waza poistions and subs. Probably similar to todays Kosen Judo. From there I guess the Gracies took what they had and ran with it, filling in the gaps with their own innovations - such as emphasising the defensive possibilties of the guard position. Also adding things from their own fighting experinces and things borrowed from other arts. Such as Rolls picking up wrestling from and American wrestling coach (mentioned in 'The Gracie Way' book) and a Carlos Snr. student finding the triangle choke in an old Judo book. The result being Gracie JJ. To me Judo is to Jiu Jitsu, what Sport BJJ is to Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
3/9/05 2:06 AM
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Ben Reinhardt
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
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"Probably similar to todays Kosen Judo. " Kosen is a set of rules of competition, not a different type of Judo. It's all Kodokan Judo. Ben Reinhardt
3/9/05 2:32 AM
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Opash
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
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But their focus is different. So by that I mean Carlos was probably taught similar techniques to what the kosen guys spend their time training. Rather than a wide variety of throwing techniques. You could argue that Sport BJJ and Olyimpic Judo are both rules of competition - its all Kodokan Judo/Jui jitsu. Its their focus that separates them.
3/9/05 11:59 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
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Opash: So is Eddie Bravo's Jujitsu a different art than Say, Renzo Gracies Jujitsu? Pure speculation on your part, I seriously doubt what Carlos learned was any sort of Kosen.
3/9/05 4:29 PM
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m.g
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Carlos was better at throws then Helio. This was clearly demostrated in the Gracie history video ( a video that made in Japan that had very old footage of both Helio and Carlos). Carlos was clearly a better athlete than Helio and essentially had a style of fighting built around his athletism. The one thing he seemed to be good at was throws (at least in relation to Helio). The video show Carlos sparring. He seemed to build the fight from standing. Anyway to say that Carlos was mostly a groundfighting guy because of what we see in Helio is wrong. Carlos seem to be the more well-rounded of the two as well as the more athletic.
3/9/05 4:41 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
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MG: I thought the same, Carlos seemed to be a Judo guy.
3/9/05 8:13 PM
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Opash
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
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Of course its speculation. But as Maeda was a guy known for fighting many challenges and using a lot of groundwork and had an Jiu Jitsu/Judo background. Is it unreasonable to speculate that the techniques he used (and taught) would have looked similar to wha the Kosen guys are doing now? Considering they have a very similar background. I never suggested that Carlos learned Kosen nor that he couldn't throw, just that the techniques/style/ emphasis may have been very similar. Re: Bravo and Royler (although I guess it was a rhetorical question). Having never trained with either, I am not in the best place to comment. But, from what I have seen of their fights. Yes, they have different Jiu Jitsu - not a different art, but a very different style.
3/9/05 11:27 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
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Opash: Regarding Jujitsu, then what's the difference between? I was speaking of Renzo vs Bravo. I think that the difference between the two is about as much as Kodokan Judo vs BJJ.
3/10/05 12:24 AM
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Opash
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Edited: 10-Mar-05
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I would agree with that statement.

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