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Weapons UnderGround >> Q about handcuffs and cuffing?


2/3/05 7:20 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 03-Feb-05 07:53 PM
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 666
 
I know it isnt weapons exactly, but I thought you guys would know. I just had a short conversation on a another forum with a guy who berated my cuffs, Smith&Wesson hinged, 300-something. I've heard it before, how its "difficult" to cuff someone with them etc.. I have cuffed alone or with a team, about 15-20 people with those cuffs. Last guy 3 weeks ago, I had a broken finger and a sprained one. After a hard fight, two against one, where I gassed and got kicked, punched in the head and rammed with a bike. (not driven, thrown/hit-with :) Still, no problem cuffing. Whats the deal? Whats the consensus on cuffs in general? Plastic cuffs? I choked him until he tapped (sic!), and had a backmount while I cuffed, not the correct way I know. Whats the "real" way. How about urban legends about junkies braking cuffs, and pulling hands out of them?
2/3/05 7:37 PM
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mongo54
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Edited: 03-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/13/2002
Posts: 2872
here is the deal FINN. I was merely trying to point out a well known ( in the states ) defect in smith and wesson hinged cuffs. The tensil strength is not up to the standards or Hiatt or Peerless. Do this, cuff yourself in the front, rotate your hands, one toward you one away, that hinge will bend. I have done this to several pair, and I am far from a bodybuilder or freak show strongman. Hiatts are my first choice, Peerless my second in hinged cuffs, but one of those. in southern nevada we have had at least 5 failures of smith cuffs. or.........disregard and have fun.
2/3/05 7:53 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 03-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 673
Hey, sorry if I offended you..No hate here.. I'm surprised, the hinge seems to be sturdy, its actually smaller in Hiatts, or then my memory failes me... I gotta think about this, luckily I dont have to hold them for long normally, but still..I dont wanna have to buy new ones, I'm a poor student DAMMIT! Thanks for the info! Any info on guys breaking out .ANYONE???
2/3/05 10:04 PM
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GrandpaB
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Edited: 03-Feb-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 675
Here is a paragraph from an article from the LA Weekly that mentions handcuff breaking. http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/11/features-duersten.ph p "This guy at Pelican Bay told me that he and his cellmate would exercise up to four or five hours a day,” says Jessner. “It stayed with me sort of as a vision of Hell: They are in these tiny little concrete cells; one of them is running vigorously in place while the other one’s doing ‘burpees’ — sort of like jumping jacks mixed with push-ups — for hours every day.” As a result, most AB members can break their restraints, as Jessner demonstrates by putting his wrists together. “They use one of the cuffs as leverage to break open the other cuff.” Five years ago, an AB member named Jeff Milton went berserk in a Los Angeles courtroom, breaking his cuffs and pitching a TV across the room." grandpab
2/3/05 10:15 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 03-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
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Thanks! I've heard of junkies doing "pull-thrus" in Finland, that leave their hands a bloody mess, but actually breaking them..damn..
2/4/05 11:04 AM
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mongo54
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Edited: 04-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/13/2002
Posts: 2879
no offense taken, it's just widely known in training circles. are you a security guard?
2/4/05 2:34 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 04-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 711
Bouncer, I worked as a sec.guard for 6 years and as a CO for a short stint. MP/K9 in the army. What about You? I'm actually aware of instances of the hinge breaking, but not Brand-spesificly. Just wanted info. My Jujutsu/escrima instructor was a security-trainer and well aware of the tactical stuff. (Hell, my jujutsu-styles headinstructor, a german had a textbook out , unlike many other jujutsu books it showed how to take a bloodsample from a resisting offender, and how to use a riotshield in striking..:):) ) Still, cuffing was'nt really covered, one lesson in the army, one in corrrections, a couple courtesy of Securitas corp...I had a private from my instructor back in the, but am interested in the latest consensus on proper cuffing procedure.. I was told to waki-gatame (straight-shoulder lock) the nearest arm, while kneeling with a knee on his neck and another in kidneys. Then move the arm down, wedge it btw thigh and elbow and start the cuffing from the opposite hand, using a fingerlock...hard to pull off smoothly..
2/4/05 6:30 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 04-Feb-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 498
I hate hinged cuffs. I find them difficult to apply effectivly in the real world. A deputy in the next county can break cuffs all day, hinged or chained. It's damn chilling to watch. As far as cuffing techniques, IMHO, it "technique" all goes out the window when the fight starts.
2/4/05 6:52 PM
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mongo54
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Edited: 04-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/13/2002
Posts: 2887
I am a 20 year police officer and defensive tactics instructor. I have found hinged cuffs far easier to use, after proper training. never kneel on the subjects head or neck, unless your not worried about injuries. if you ever get to las vegas let me know. you'll be a cuffin fool in 2 hours.
2/4/05 7:57 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 04-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 714
I know the neck part, It...slipped...;) Officially, never.. I doubt I'll make it to Vegas in the near future, maybe when the studentloans been paid off..;)
2/6/05 11:21 AM
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SteelTalon
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Edited: 06-Feb-05
Member Since: 01/18/2003
Posts: 86
Behind the back ,palms out, thumbs up.. No matter what the style of cuff being used its never a 100% fool proof. You want to limit/reduce the amount of counter leverage they can produce. As a bouncer,once you cuff someone I'd keep them belly prone until the police arrive. To keep them in place you can always use a set of leg irons when you have them prone, cuff them around a sign post,tree etc.;) Steel~
2/7/05 9:12 AM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 07-Feb-05 09:13 AM
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 771
Illegal to cuff them on anything, unfortunately..:) I had a problem with a guy who just didnt stay down while I took care of his buddy, annoying cause you cant handle him like a normal thug. If he falls while handcuffed and breaks both wrists, I might lose my license as a bouncer. Thats not good. You see, we have to go thru a course to get a license that enables you to work as a bouncer. Your'e protected by law then, and its illegal to resist you, but they can also take it away from you... Sometimes I wish the rules were a bit different here ... :)
2/7/05 12:25 PM
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mongo54
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Edited: 07-Feb-05
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if you keep him down. roll him on to his left side. prolonged belly down can cause positional hypoxia in some people.
2/7/05 1:52 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 07-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 774
Yeah, thats true. Once I caused an accidental hypoxia myself...:) He was struggling (after a hard fight) on his back, I was kneeling on him, trying to fish a jointlock. It was dark and I was extremely pissed. Suddenly he stops struggling, I look down and his tongue is hanging out. Had my knee on his throat..No wonder he was putting up a bit of a fight...damn junkie.. Then he woke up, and looked at me with this insane Joker grin...Fucking Goth, all black clothing , black hair, white face, and nobody home....:) Short pause, and we continued. I really should get a pepperspray for these guys...:) Whats the deal on those special cuffs the british use, with the blue plastic "handle" covering the chain/hinge? Speedcuffs? Im sure its a good handle for controlling the suspect, but still, it seems a bit ..unnatural...Sometimes they seem to cuff people standing-up with them, does it really help that much..? And another thing, the weather is also a problem. You cant have someone wearing light clothing lie on ice at -20C for very long....
2/7/05 4:33 PM
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WinkyTickleBear
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Edited: 07-Feb-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 391
"Then he woke up, and looked at me with this insane Joker grin...Fucking Goth, all black clothing , black hair, white face, and nobody home...." ROFL Not to skeeve you out our anything, but he probably got off on you choking him.
2/7/05 4:52 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 07-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 778
LOL, I wouldn't doubt it. He was a definite weirdo. He visited Netherlands (for the easy access to dope), was escorted to the plane back home by cops in 5 days..fucked up on LSD. After that had a tendency to twist womens arms/fingers and slap them around. Some I knew. I heard about it, and made sure he fucked up..just once.... Still waiting for info on plastic cuffs, and "speedcuffs".
2/8/05 4:25 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 08-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 781
Yeah, never underestimate a convict. Or at least, dont put a genious lockdesigner at work in a metalshop. They caught him after he had ran halfway through the prison , with the keys he made. Human stupidity knows no bounds... He had patented modifications for the Abloy-lock. Guess what locks we had in the prison..lol
2/8/05 4:52 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 08-Feb-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 783
Speedcuffs and cuffing with them? Them plastic things..?
3/9/05 4:32 PM
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bryggjemann
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Edited: 09-Mar-05
Member Since: 04/19/2003
Posts: 44
I'm not sure about the speed cuffs you are describing. We only train with regular cuffs. As far as arrest technique goes, that "catcher's crouch" position (knee on shoulder blade, knee on lower back area or on ground )is a basic cuffing position for prone compliant suspects. There is a technique for an active “non-compliant” suspect I learned from Phil Migliarese from Balance Studios out of Philadelphia. He did a demo for us a while back. It is a cuffing position from the back mount, which makes sense because that's where I have usually ended up when cuffing an active resister. When you are in the back mount (w/ suspect face down) the suspect usually tries to "push-up", this allows you to get wrist control by going under one of the armpits to grab a wrist and pull it back through to the back. Once you have the arm on the suspect's back use your knee on that side to pin the suspect's elbow against his side. (this has you with one knee on the ground pinning the elbow and one up, still applying your weight onto the suspect's lower back) Watch his hand getting near your crotch. To get the other hand out from under the suspect pull it out if possible or apply pain compliance by using pressure on the wrist joint by applying pressure to the hand towards the pinned elbow (wrist-lock). You could always pull both wrists back at the same time if possible when the guy tries to push up. I'm sure other variations could be worked up and weapon protection for your gun/duty belt (if wearing one) as you maintain the backmount can be analyzed. If the guy is too strong to keep down then other options will be necessary. Sean G.
3/11/05 1:41 PM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 11-Mar-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1901
Russian Judo
Mongo are you with LVMPD? Marc

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